Confirmed Signing with Link: [CAR] Jesperi Kotkaniemi signs offersheet with the Hurricanes (1 year, $6.100035M) [Part IV]

[Habs Halifax]

My guess is that when they talked to him they gave Carolina a rough totals /duration 4.0 for 4 or similar Canes go like no way Montreal doesn't match that. So.... ok 6.1 for 1yr Montreal can match but we think it is unlikely

I'm not 100% sure offer sheets work that way and I'm getting mixed messages. One guy says you submit an offer and you can't talk and then I see your post. Hard to know the truth

 

[tarheelhockey]

So what is the buzz? Is MTL going to match or is he going to play for the Canes next season?

He will play for the Canes, but only if he can kill Jake Gardiner in hand to hand combat.

 

[Deam78]

The risk / benefits are exactly the same for Carolina and Montreal. Same player, same contract, same potential.

The difference is Carolina is risking a 1st and a 3rd round pick, while Montreal is risking an old 3rd overall that has already lost quite a bit of value.

Sure, the Canes just killed KK's value. But this is true both for Montreal and Carolina.

If KK doesn't break out this season and the Canes are forced to let him walk or give him his QO at 6,1 millions, I doubt anybody will call this a good deal in 1 year, after wasting a 1st for nothing.

Basically, the Canes are betting everything in KK breaking out THIS season. And this is not the most likely scenario IMO.

How dare you say there's a possible risk for the Canes, it's supposed to be a win all around

I really don't understand this twisted logic that if the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver this season we're screwed, but if the same happens with Carolina while giving up a 1st+3rd it's a win lol

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think Canes fans would have said why would we target a center when we already have three and have moved necas to wing. Why would we spend those assets (regardless of value) on a position of strength when we need help on the wing?

I'm also pretty sure Canes fans or many other fans would have said KK was a bust. Actually, it's exactly what was said and it's plastered all over past trade threads. First we overrate our young players and now KK would be a welcome addition to the Canes.

 

[Stickpucker]

He is already a 3C right now, was on pace for 30 points, not a defensive liability. Great deal for the Canes, since I am quite sure they have a MT deal (c. 4x4 ?) at a lower price already lined up for him. The only risk is a tail risk where because of how stacked the Metro and the East in general are, CAR does not make the playoffs and the pick becomes a lottery pick.

I am a Habs fan but this was a dumb way to develop the player and a failure to lose the 3OA 3 years post draft like that but you can't keep a player unhappy to be here with a 6.1 QO in the hands next year right ? Well played from CAR. By the way that is how you make an offersheet, and it should be done more often for those types of players. Now as a Habs fan I am just hoping for CAR to fail, not out of revenge but only to get the lottery pick

Thank you for honesty.

I think this should be approach from bubble teams. Obviously Buffalo won't offer sheet with lotto picks but a team around 8-10 in conference should do this in off-season instead of pony up for rental at tdl.

 

[Habs Halifax]

How dare you say there's a possible risk for the Canes, it's supposed to be a win all around

I really don't understand this twisted logic that if the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver this season we're screwed, but if the same happens with Carolina while giving up a 1st+3rd it's a win lol

Canes fans think and want us to scramble cause they are after revenge. The evidence is there and you just touched on one example of many. The only negative about the Aho contract was it was front loaded money so Canes fans are worried about their owner's pocket or moving around investments to pay him that money. Look at Svechnikov, Only got a total of $4M in signing bonus money. Then I hear that we messed up their 8 year plans like as if they could get Aho signed for the same AAV but for 8 years. I doubt that and Canes would only have reason to really be upset if they loose Aho as a free agent after that 5 years. But once again, the replies you will get is Aho will 100% re sign.

 

[Stickpucker]

Would the Habs have traded Kotkaniemi to Carolina for a 1st and 3rd? (Forget the offer-sheet occurred)
If the answer is no, then that means the Canes are underpaying in assets and overpaying in salary.

Because last year Nick Foligno was trade for close to this package for a handful of games. You cant sit there and say that trading an equivalent package for a 3OA 21 year old with team control and potential upside is a waste.

I wish we could sticky this to the thread.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He is already a 3C right now, was on pace for 30 points, not a defensive liability. Great deal for the Canes, since I am quite sure they have a MT deal (c. 4x4 ?) at a lower price already lined up for him. The only risk is a tail risk where because of how stacked the Metro and the East in general are, CAR does not make the playoffs and the pick becomes a lottery pick.

I am a Habs fan but this was a dumb way to develop the player and a failure to lose the 3OA 3 years post draft like that but you can't keep a player unhappy to be here with a 6.1 QO in the hands next year right ? Well played from CAR. By the way that is how you make an offersheet, and it should be done more often for those types of players. Now as a Habs fan I am just hoping for CAR to fail, not out of revenge but only to get the lottery pick

I wonder what Canes fans would have said if we were trying to trade KK++ for Svechnikov or some other trade talk. Bet you your narrative on KK gets attacked even though I think you are not far off on that assessment.

KK's biggest flaws is he falls down a lot, is not great on face offs, and his skating is below average. When can he put all that together? Doubt that happens in one off season. But make no mistake, he has solid vision and skill. His shot is very good but takes a long time to release it cause his stick is like 12' long lol. But that stick reach gives him a little help for his lack of skating when defending.

 

[otto bond]

His incentive is he's probably already agreed to that deal, but wants it in Carolina and not in Montreal. There's a chance they haven't agreed to this deal, either, but I'm guessing this has been worked out already.

He better pray Montreal doesn't match, and if they do, he better have one of the hottest starts to a season ever, or he's going to be crucified.

no ones knows this, certainly not you or me. No comments where said by KK and that is it.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

How dare you say there's a possible risk for the Canes, it's supposed to be a win all around

I really don't understand this twisted logic that if the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver this season we're screwed, but if the same happens with Carolina while giving up a 1st+3rd it's a win lol

it was a spicy offer tho so for the purposes of internet forums they can't lose

 

[Goptor]

Its good for Carolina in a vacuum. They're trading futures 5 years from now for futures 2 years from now and its costing them a bloated salary. It fits with their team because their roster is built for more immediate returns. They're also able to fit that salary because they have not given out any other over payments.

It makes no sense, however, when you consider they could have given out a less-inflated salary to Dougie Hamilton and gotten a significantly higher impact player right away.

 

[Deam78]

it was a spicy offer tho so for the purposes of internet forums they can't lose

Oh that I'm not arguing, very entertaining and I thought the Canes twitter and overall trolling was hilarious.

Just from a hockey standpoint, I don't see the narrative of this being a guaranteed win for Canes and all risks being on the Habs.

 

[Guttersniped]

Hmmm you may be right. Now I'm not seeing any such thing either- I may have been mistaken

I thought there would be, that’s why I went to the CBA after not seeing on Cap Friendly. I put in the disclaimer because I only skimmed it after immediately realizing how boring it was and that I had overestimated how much I cared.

The only reason I could come up with is that the submitting club simply either gets the player or doesn’t while the receiving club could hypothetically auction the player off for seven days after they sign an offer sheet if a trade was allowed.

For example, if another team offered Montreal a 1st & 2nd (or whatever) for Kotkaniemi then they could sign and flip him after another team got him signed. This is a big hypothetical (offer sheets work and other teams have even better offers) but it’s possible.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Would the Habs have traded Kotkaniemi to Carolina for a 1st and 3rd? (Forget the offer-sheet occurred)
If the answer is no, then that means the Canes are underpaying in assets and overpaying in salary.

Because last year Nick Foligno was trade for close to this package for a handful of games. You cant sit there and say that trading an equivalent package for a 3OA 21 year old with team control and potential upside is a waste.

Would the Canes have traded an unprotected 1st? NO. I get your point and the answer is likely no as well, we keep KK. But things have changed and his $6.1M salary forces us to rethink the situation. I actually think the Canes did us a favor the more I think about it now. Where are the KK haters now? I don't see one bad thing being said about KK's value as a young player? You know what I'm talking about. What's the truth? Is he a bust or does he still have potential?

* Use KK's cap space on extending Suzuki, Romanov, Caufield, Evans in the next two years
* Give the opportunity to Poehling cause he is NHL ready and I actually believe is the better skater and is more physically stronger. Probably better 200' game and better on faceoffs. Habs faith after we lost Weber/Danault was 10-20 range. That don't change depending on KK/Poehling or if we try to trade for Dvorak. We are still a bubble team
* Take our chances with the unprotected 1st. Probably 15-25 range or could be 10-15 and a lottery pick. I've recently seen some posters comprehend that to us getting a high pick.

 

[didimentionlarseller]

Oh that I'm not arguing, very entertaining and I thought the Canes twitter and overall trolling was hilarious.

Just from a hockey standpoint, I don't see the narrative of this being a guaranteed win for Canes and all risks being on the Habs.

I tried making that point last night also but a canes fans then started comparing kotka to several well know HOF players while using bread as a metaphor for him while also suggesting he will be used on the 4th line wing - it was all making just too much sense

either way ill be happy to see Kotka go if we match at this price ill be angrier at Bergevin

 

[swiftwin]

The real question is : would the Canes be willing to trade a 1st and a 3rd for KK at 6,1 millions per year? And how many teams would do that?

This contract greatly reduces his trade value. It almost makes him untradeable, unless he truly breaks out.

A 1st and a 3rd is poor value for KK, but it’s good value under this contract.

Of course they would, that's literally what they just did. Otherwise, they would not have signed Kotkaniemi.

 

[TLEH]

Young guy getting paid 6.1 mil in a smaller market playing with two of the best players for your country. Sounds pretty dope to me.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I thought there would be, that’s why I went to the CBA after not seeing on Cap Friendly. I put in the disclaimer because I only skimmed it after immediately realizing how boring it was and that I had overestimated how much I cared.

The only reason I could come up with is that the submitting club simply either gets the player or doesn’t while the receiving club could hypothetically auction the player off for seven days after they sign an offer sheet if a trade was allowed.

For example, if another team offered Montreal a 1st & 2nd (or whatever) for Kotkaniemi then they could sign and flip him after another team got him signed. This is a big hypothetical (offer sheets work and other teams have even better offers) but it’s possible.

I don't think it matters cause whoever has KK come Saturday, can't trade him anyways. Habs won't be allowed and good luck to the Canes if they are allowed. Nobody going to give value for a under performing player making $6.1M at age 21.

 

[swiftwin]

How dare you say there's a possible risk for the Canes, it's supposed to be a win all around

I really don't understand this twisted logic that if the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver this season we're screwed, but if the same happens with Carolina while giving up a 1st+3rd it's a win lol

It's not really twisted.

If the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver, they lose a 3rd overall pick.

If the Canes match and KK doesn't deliver, they lose a late 1st and a 3rd (Basically what the Leafs paid for Foligno).

 

[Stickpucker]

I don't care. Well, no. If I'm being completely honest I hope it ends up terribly for the Canes. I'll actively be cheering against them and hope that Kotkaniemi fails miserably. I don't think he will, but I will be cheering for that outcome. I hope you don't hold that against me, just being honest as a fan.

But there is this persistent narrative that this was actually a hockey decision, and revenge was just a bonus. That part I don't buy. The hockey decision doesn't make any sense when you look at their roster. Its primarily a revenge decision, I haven't been convinced otherwise.

I'd want it to turn out bad for Carolina too...fair enough.

I think the difference is youre looking at who JK is/was and Canes are looking who he will be.

They think he will replace Foegele or McGinn as a 15g 20a or better player who spends one or two seasons playing us and down the top 9 at lw.

They think their strength and skating coaches and off-season spent with Aho will fix his deficiencies.

They see this as a clear buy low and I think a lot of people are excited to see who he becomes as a 24 yr old.

Since mtl fans wanted more than a late 1st for him I think they were too.

 

[MinJaBen]

I think Canes fans would have said why would we target a center when we already have three and have moved necas to wing. Why would we spend those assets (regardless of value) on a position of strength when we need help on the wing?

Well, speaking as a fan of the Canes, I think we do need a good future 2c as that is missing in our prospect pool. Yes, we do have Trocheck currently at that spot, but he's UFA after this year and unless he REALY wants to be a Cane, I suspect he will price himself out above what our management values him/that position at; just like Dougie priced himself out of the 2/3 D position management saw him at.

So if that is true about Trocheck, who are our center prospects that might take the 2C spot in the future? Suzuki maybe, but give his eye and development to date, I think he projects more likely at a 3C upside. Drury is in the same boat, though I think he may be the better of the two, or maybe just more developed at this time. Jarvis is probably our best prospect at this point, but he is really more of a wing. Some think Necas could slide to the middle, but I think he is better suited at the wing given his speed. So KK becomes our best prospect/young player that could take the 2C if the Habs don't match. And even with his slower than desired development to date, I think that is a pretty safe conclusion.

So now, why spend the assets to get him if not for the revenge factor? Well, if you think he can do the 2C position for a good chunk of your future (they seem to think that and I agree), and if you think the price in assets is fair (if he can play 2C for the time frame they want based on the rumored extension of 3 or 4 years, those assets will be a bargain assuming they are not lottery picks), and you think you can pull of the acquisition (Montreal put themselves in a pretty unique position to make it possible by alienating him to some degree, failing to sign him quickly, and having a very tight cap situation, so I think there is a good chance) then the offer sheet attempt makes all the sense in the world.

 

[Deam78]

It's not really twisted.

If the Habs match and KK doesn't deliver, they lose a 3rd overall pick.

If the Canes match and KK doesn't deliver, they lose a late 1st and a 3rd (Basically what the Leafs paid for Foligno).

No, the Canes would also lose a 3rd Overall for which they paid a 1st and 3rd on top of an insane amount of money to pry him away from his drafting team.

He's the same player with the same draft pedigree, coming with the same consequences if he does not deliver not matter what team he ends up with.

In that scenario Habs would do good and Canes ended up on the bad side of a calculated risk, but risk nonetheless.

 

[Stickpucker]

I think Canes fans would have said why would we target a center when we already have three and have moved necas to wing. Why would we spend those assets (regardless of value) on a position of strength when we need help on the wing?

Rod breaks all youngsters in on the wing. JK would be no different. I heard he was bad there in Mtl....but Carolina brass believes it will be different here. With how Aho and Necas are turning out, with much lower draft pedigree, I'm excited to see what happens.

 

[Stickpucker]

Its good for Carolina in a vacuum. They're trading futures 5 years from now for futures 2 years from now and its costing them a bloated salary. It fits with their team because their roster is built for more immediate returns. They're also able to fit that salary because they have not given out any other over payments.

It makes no sense, however, when you consider they could have given out a less-inflated salary to Dougie Hamilton and gotten a significantly higher impact player right away.

The Canes want to pay for what you will do not what you've done.

They didn’t want the next Erik Karlsson.

 

[Stickpucker]

I tried making that point last night also but a canes fans then started comparing kotka to several well know HOF players while using bread as a metaphor for him while also suggesting he will be used on the 4th line wing - it was all making just too much sense

either way ill be happy to see Kotka go if we match at this price ill be angrier at Bergevin

Begevin cares about his job not the teams long term.

His team is plagued with injuries after a sc run. If they tank this year Molson will send him to the guillotine.

He's going to do whatever he can to save his job....I don't know Montreal cap well enough to know what that means over next few weeks before season.