Canucks Management Discussion | Part 23

[Disappointed EP40]

I have been student of the game for 20 years. I trust my eyes over your hero charts.

This is great.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

Personally, I actually put a lot of merit into video tracking and analysis. Things like being able to take two players with an identical number of hits and find out which player are more likely to gain puck possession after a hit, for example

Corsi and CF% feels far too simplistic a measure for me for something that's so nuanced. It also seems to be the be-all and end all of player evaluation for a certain segment of the fanbase who like to just "mic drop" HERO/WARRIOR charts into discussions as if they're an unassailable fact.

For comparing defenseman I'd say they offer a fairly solid base of significant contributions in comparison to competition.

Something many people cannot grasp with the eye test over the long term. (Watching player X get scored on often because he's always against top comp. Or playing 18 minutes of solid hockey with 1 minute of bad against top comp.)

 

[Hit the post]

Edm got Lucic, Larson for Hall, McDavid back, depth D in Clendenning (which while he sucks, still made them better in that area.) And everyone is a year older. I expect them to be better than us next year. (If not, that's hiilarious)

That tells you just how horrible the Oilers blueline is.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Oh give me a break. Do you honestly believe the anger around here comes solely from the team not dominating the league?

There's a lot of very smart posters on this board who can analyze things from many different perspectives -- historical, statistical, etc. They generally seem to be in agreement that this management group is incompetent.

You might be right that some posters take the cynicism too far, but it's incredibly condescending of you to write off the entire board as just being upset that we aren't dominating the league. You're not actually reading what the "negative" people are saying if that's what you think.

How cynical should we be of a management group that has taken a decent team and turned it into one of the worst franchises in the entire league?

 

[KeninsFan]

I have been student of the game for 20 years. I trust my eyes over your hero charts.

Best bait I've seen in a while. Well done.

Hudler at a low two year contract would be a solid signing, but the real key is Shipachyov, could really add some talent on this roster.

Has anyone seen Shipachyov play? Will he be good enough to bolster this roster into a wildcard spot?

Sedin - Sedin - Eriksson
Hansen - Shipachyov - Sutter
Baertschi - Horvat - Hudler
Burrows - Granlund - Dorsett

 

[Huggy]

How cynical should we be of a management group that has taken a decent team and turned it into one of the worst franchises in the entire league?

sedin sedin burrows
hansen kesler higgins

isnt decent

 

[coldsteel79]

sedin sedin burrows
hansen kesler higgins

isnt decent

But don't forget we traded away Norris caliber Jason garrison

 

[Disappointed EP40]

That tells you just how horrible the Oilers blueline is.

Certainly. But as much as horrible as they are, one dman makes a significant difference when you're only dealing with 6 on the ice. I suspect they're going to be a much different team next year.

It's also why I hate Sbisa and why I think losing Hamhuis for Gundbranson is going to send us into the bottom of the league.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

But don't forget we traded away Norris caliber Jason garrison

You'd rather Sbisa ?

Really, other than Gundbranson's hits, I'd say Garrison and Gund are pretty much the same caliber of player.

 

[Ryp37]

You'd rather Sbisa ?

Really, other than Gundbranson's hits, I'd say Garrison and Gund are pretty much the same caliber of player.

No kidding, not really getting the sarcasm. "Haha we have no defensive depth" because we do things like pay more for Gudbranson than we get in a return for Garrison whose a better player.

Haha but he's not Norris caliber

 

[coldsteel79]

No kidding, not really getting the sarcasm. "Haha we have no defensive depth" because we do things like pay more for Gudbranson than we get in a return for Garrison whose a better player.

Haha but he's not Norris caliber

No by all means we should have kept that defensive core. garrison is a great young talent yet, huge mistake trading him for a second.

 

[CherryToke]

How cynical should we be of a management group that has taken a decent team and turned it into one of the worst franchises in the entire league?

Decent team? now you're just being silly.

 

[Pip]

No by all means we should have kept that defensive core. garrison is a great young talent yet, huge mistake trading him for a second.

The answer certainly wasn't to downgrade our defense as we've done. Nobody would care about Garrison if had gotten a fair return and if he was adequately replaced. Instead we have spent more assets overall for a downgrade to Gudbranson.

 

[Gaunce4gm]

Best bait I've seen in a while. Well done.



Has anyone seen Shipachyov play? Will he be good enough to bolster this roster into a wildcard spot?

Sedin - Sedin - Eriksson
Hansen - Shipachyov - Sutter
Baertschi - Horvat - Hudler
Burrows - Granlund - Dorsett

I read that the calculator that changes the difference in scoring from KHL to NHL equated Shipachyovs scoring to roughly 72pts over a 82 game NHL season.

So I would say yes he would be a VERY legitimate 2C after Hank and would be a good candidate to be the 1C we would be looking for after hank retires until our young players are ready

 

[coldsteel79]

The answer certainly wasn't to downgrade our defense as we've done. Nobody would care about Garrison if had gotten a fair return and if he was adequately replaced. Instead we have spent more assets overall for a downgrade to Gudbranson.

That's the joy of trading ntc players. A return from St. Louis would have greatly altered garrisons value from the 2nd.

 

[Bleach Clean]

That's the joy of trading ntc players. A return from St. Louis would have greatly altered garrisons value from the 2nd.

You're assuming it would have. As we've seen with Benning and non-NTC trades, he's not one to garner value in return. I'd argue that he's bled value in almost ever deal since being hired. The Bieksa deal being an exception, IMO.

 

[PM]

We could have had both and a much better defense this year. Then when Juolevi is ready you either trade or don't re-sign Garrison. Sbisa and Larsen combined account for Garrison's cap hit and Biega can be the cheap 7th man.

Edler - Tanev
Garrison - Gudbranson
Hutton - Tryamkin
Biega

 

[PM]

That's the joy of trading ntc players. A return from St. Louis would have greatly altered garrisons value from the 2nd.

The player Benning targeted on St Louis was Berglund who isn't all that much more valuable. He's a good but very expensive third liner. Frankly I would have preferred the 2nd rounder but my first choice would have been to keep Garrison. Top-4 dmen are much, much more valuable than a 2nd/3rd liner in Berglund with an almost identical cap hit.

 

[coldsteel79]

The player Benning targeted on St Louis was Berglund who isn't all that much more valuable. He's a good but very expensive third liner. Frankly I would have preferred the 2nd rounder but my first choice would have been to keep Garrison. Top-4 dmen are much, much more valuable than a 2nd/3rd liner in Berglund with an almost identical cap hit.

Would berglund be a different player away from hitchcocks system? It also would have had a domino effect with the Kesler trade, and the pursuit of sutter. As is, I would have preferred trading bieksa instead of garrison, but I would have preferred berglund to the second, which may have given Vancouver the option to go after one of anahiems better defense prospects.

 

[Archangel]

My gutt is telling me the doomcuff owners are not willing to do a proper rebuild. The Erickson contract told me that. We are on a cliff and I would rather suffer two or three years of hell and the next 5 of finishing just out of the playoffs and getting screwed in the lotto

 

[CpatainCanuck]

I read that the calculator that changes the difference in scoring from KHL to NHL equated Shipachyovs scoring to roughly 72pts over a 82 game NHL season.

So I would say yes he would be a VERY legitimate 2C after Hank and would be a good candidate to be the 1C we would be looking for after hank retires until our young players are ready

Guys Shipachyov is legitimately a superstar calibre player who could be the canucks leading scorer next season. He led the 2016 WHC with 18 points in 10 games, while significantly outscoring a plethora of established nhl stars. If the canucks could sign him that would be incredible.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Guys Shipachyov is legitimately a superstar calibre player who could be the canucks leading scorer next season. He led the 2016 WHC with 18 points in 10 games, while significantly outscoring a plethora of established nhl stars. If the canucks could sign him that would be incredible.

He's 29 though. Would have been ideal if he were 24. Still though, I'd be interested depending on the AAV and term.

 

[bbud]

My gutt is telling me the doomcuff owners are not willing to do a proper rebuild. The Erickson contract told me that. We are on a cliff and I would rather suffer two or three years of hell and the next 5 of finishing just out of the playoffs and getting screwed in the lotto

This is exactly why this management works the way they do for all the blame given reality is they do what the person signing their paycheque tells them too .

 

[y2kcanucks]

But don't forget we traded away Norris caliber Jason garrison

Seeing what defensemen are going for in the market, Benning got hosed on what he's done with our defensemen.

 

[coldsteel79]

Seeing what defensemen are going for in the market, Benning got hosed on what he's done with our defensemen.

He got hosed on garrison, not bieksa.