Value of: buch and Zib IN A PACKAGE

[GirardSpinorama]

The premise is that if NYR put this pair on the market, either
you acquire for yourself, and pay the price
or
you risk other SC contenders acquiring at their price.

In theory, such a deal could make trading partner a favorite, possibly a dominant favorite, for cup, barring injury.

Hence you decide to go there or not.

Ya but none of the other cup contenders have the room for them either. And it doesn't move the needle for the non cup contenders.

 

[bernmeister]

Wouldn't trade Byram alone for that. Why would we want Buchnevich, and why would we trade our best prospect for 2 playoff runs with Zibby.


So, so terrible.

Obv, you think [or not] that such a signif add could put you over the top for the cup, this season if not also next.

If yes, then it is arguably worth it.
If you think it is still not enuf, fine.

And again, Avs were an example.
Want to hear what the market is for this package league wide, pls

 

[JoemAvs]

The premise is that if NYR put this pair on the market, either
you acquire for yourself, and pay the price
or
you risk other SC contenders acquiring at their price.

In theory, such a deal could make trading partner a favorite, possibly a dominant favorite, for cup, barring injury.

Hence you decide to go there or not.

Fine let them go elsewhere. I highly doubt that Zib is going anywhere anyways and Buchnevich is good but not good enough to pay him over our core guys.
He certainly is not worth any of our bluechip guys at all. Not even close considering that wingers are the least important position and that in a flat cap world they are tied last with goalies when it comes to the position you want to spend money on.
I am also not scared of any team that acquires Buchnevich. Don't see a team that he really puts over the top so go ahead and sell him to someone else.

 

[bernmeister]

Rangers shouldnt acquire any picks or prospects until they can figure out how to get production out of 1st and 2nd overall picks.

not logical
for the first time in a long time, guys we are drafting [not just top top guys] are looking good.

We should continue to replace quality vets w/quality youth.
We do not have enuf quality youth for our own needs going forward + surplus. Once we have a surplus, we can toy w/idea of a splurge

 

[bernmeister]

Avs will need ADA to offset the loss of Byram.

didn't include but if asked for he's free

 

[bernmeister]

Cap structure doesn't work for the Avs. Especially buchnevich since we have good enough wingers. It's also definitely not worth giving up Byram and two first round picks.

thank you for constructive feedback

as to balance, feedback is Avs don't want to mortgage future for substantially increased chance to win SC for 2, possibly 2+ yrs.

Fair enuf.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

bold = fair enuf
underline = he will get 7 or 8 w/medium term, imo, not 10-12 or so per
imo
that is not a "massive number" for Zib

He scored at a ~108 point pace last season. Why would he not gamble on himself?

 

[bernmeister]

Ya but none of the other cup contenders have the room for them either. And it doesn't move the needle for the non cup contenders.

Underline = agree
bold = not so sure. Also, if there is high enuf return, Rangers can be creative to make cap work

 

[bernmeister]

Fine let them go elsewhere. I highly doubt that Zib is going anywhere anyways and Buchnevich is good but not good enough to pay him over our core guys.
He certainly is not worth any of our bluechip guys at all. Not even close considering that wingers are the least important position and that in a flat cap world they are tied last with goalies when it comes to the position you want to spend money on.
I am also not scared of any team that acquires Buchnevich. Don't see a team that he really puts over the top so go ahead and sell him to someone else.

Fair enuf, but let me remind, if NY were able to swing the right deal in a package, it is not just only you are going up vs a possible finalist now fortified w/only Buch. That team now also has Zib.

That dynamic is why I wanted to see who, if anyone, would overpay for the pair.

==============
Again, while illustration was as to Colorado, would like to see what return is offered by all interested clubs

 

[bernmeister]

He scored at a ~108 point pace last season. Why would he not gamble on himself?

Again, 7+ or so for 5 ish term is more likely. Could get more, but not seeing crazy more 10, 10+.
Starts extension around 30 yrs old,, would be dif he wuz like 23 or so.

 

[bernmeister]

Appreciate all feedback pro and con so far.

I think we have consensus that even for this much firepower added, regardless of value, Avs do not want to deal Byram.
Not sure we would agree on price just for Zib alone which is separate ? for another thread.

And as was noted, Avs enjoy W depth so passing on Buch.

--------------

MOVING ON,
who else is interested in a Zib + Buch package, what is the offer?

til tonight

 

[SoulDynasty]

After seeing what you expect back, I don’t think anyone would or should reply.

 

[AirGut]

COL-NYR are just not good trade partners. Why would either team do this whatsoever? The Rangers aren't giving up some of their best top tier assets for young assets, we aren't in 2018 anymore. This is something that would start for a potential Eichel deal if Gorton was insane and wanted to "help" Kevyn Adams.

Huge laugh and a no from BOTH COL/NYR

 

[Albus Dumbledore]

I wanted ZBAD when he was slumping or hurt or w.e still want him now.
Take whoever you want from the Leafs in terms of assets. retain 50% on ZBAD.

 

[SRHRangers]

Oh brother......

Rangers wouldn't deal both together to start with. Not gonna get max value that way

Byram is basically untouchable.

Avs fans react just as badly.

There has been pleasant talks in here about a Z at 50% for Newhook/1 offer in the last 1-2 weeks.

But the Buch for Byram/1 aspect of it, is downright silly. And I f*cking love Buch.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

Bern delivers yet again. Only I’m surprised Broberg wasn’t somehow included in a 3 way

 

[broc]

Buch is just in his prime, bern. you guys should be seein if you can sign him long term. His yrs will fit right in with when the young core hit their stride.

you can’t just dress ALL prospects and Panarin. Edmonton did the “young too prospects” game and it did crap for them. You’ll need a middle aged vet on top of his game to show and lead them

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

"NYR will not deal blue chip ELCs, but I'm expecting 2 blue chip ELCs plus multiple first rounders for the players I'm giving up"

Must be something in the water that Ranger fans drink....

 

[The Moose is Loose]

hahah not a chance you get half of that from the Avs

I know you think you can sell high because of one game but even with that game Zib doesn't even look like an improvement on our 2nd line.

Go peddle Zibanejad and Buch somewhere else because the Avs aren't buying and certainly not at the price of the recent 4th overall defenseman who is already contributing to our roster (not to mention the 3 other very valuable pieces you're asking)

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

The Rangers want to trade Zib because they fear signing him to LT deal due to his health....Why would another team trade a lot for him?

 

[Patagonia]

fine.
If we are truly far apart and NY is not getting desired currency in return, will sell a la carte.

You have a good shot at the Cup, but not ironclad.
Ya wanna hold on to the future a bit and not go all in for next 2 yrs at min, okay.
But you reap what you sow.

AVs have specific needs. You've done your research that checks 2C/3C + G, but the ask is excessive for basically 4-1sts.

They can't mortgage their future with impending extensions to Mack, Rants, Makar and Grubs for basically 1.5 years. Issue with the expansion draft would also cost another good player. You might have met their needs, but the ask is not even close to being realistic.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Must be something in the water that Ranger fans drink....

Again don't lump us all in with bern.

 

[DJN21]

Op this is terrible man.

 

[bernmeister]

Before responding to remaining responses, allow me to clarify pls.

The premise of this thread is to ask IF there is an additional premium in value obtained when a team with 2 significant difference makers sends BOTH of them to a contender with the expectation being such a deal makes the contender a cup finalist, if not a projected winner.

This is counter to what often happens generically for most products; usually, you buy in bulk and you get it wholesale, whether that is a volume or other discount,

But the premise here was reciprocal to that. Typically, two player assets are available. If moved separately, prices are a la carte; the supply and demand theory is separate transactions max competitive bidding for each, and that is the best return.
But in this case, the premise asks the question, IF both players are included in the same deal, it greatly ratchets up not only what internal benefit the acquiring team has for its own production due to the acquisition. It also helps the acquiring team by depriving any fellow competitor from instead getting those assets. That is, the acquiring team pays a premium, a heavy premium, to deprive anyone else of these assets, in this case locking both up for a minimum of this season and next.

Think of it as a tax happily paid to remove the competitive bidding, a fee for the exclusivity.

So that is part of what I had in mind with the Avs illustration, and what would apply to a different acquiring team.

I was hoping for cerebral responses to help gauge the dynamic between this, and the alternative of selling pieces separately. Obviously different deals with different pieces are variables to different results. Which is stronger in this instance? Buch + Zib separately? Or in a package?

Is the trading team, in this case NYR, better able to extract a max price premium here?
Or is there a point at which such max extraction is too much, no team will pay it, and it will accept the risk someone else does, or try to press to have the package broken up with its components sold separately?

thank you again and keep it coming.
but pls lets stay focused and play nice

 

[bernmeister]

COL-NYR are just not good trade partners. Why would either team do this whatsoever? The Rangers aren't giving up some of their best top tier assets for young assets, we aren't in 2018 anymore. This is something that would start for a potential Eichel deal if Gorton was insane and wanted to "help" Kevyn Adams.

Huge laugh and a no from BOTH COL/NYR

We are not likely dealing for Eichel unless he is SERIOUSLY undervalued, which is not the ask. Nor are we asking the other item that would help, retention of salary, be part of the deal.
NYR cannot fall prey to the foolish overreach of win now mentality that seeks instant gratification of adding another major 10m+ salary, as if that had no consequences in a flat cap era.

There should be no adding a big salary unless/until Trouba's 8m per is moved. THAT is the structural move needed to give us enough cap relief to entertain a new splurge.

-------
As to:
"The Rangers aren't giving up some of their best top tier assets for young assets,"

The smart play here is to replace quality vets w/quality youth, b'c while quality of production may vary one player to another, generally cost does not. That is, generally, elcs/rfas cost less than UFAs.
So if you only break even on the production, you get comparable results for less salary, which is only important to extent less team salary = more cap room = increased roster flexibility.

Sell high on the vets. Just be sure to repurpose their value; futures, esp picks, are often universally accepted currency. I never suggested give vets, other than POS like Namest, away for nothing, which is implied if not specified in the term 'sell high' .
Youth will ultimately be served, whether anyone likes it or not.