Rumor: Brennan Tweet (since deleted)

[Stylizer1]

So that's what no explanation gets?

 

[Big Muddy]

Apparently you aren't aware at all.You actually said this... This year's version is: Hey ya, that Stepan trade was bad, but we got a 2nd back for Paquette & Coburn.

Which is not true at all. Go back and look what we got for Paquette (we still have Coburn) Maybe you should try to be more accurate with your thoughts if you want people to have an idea about what you're trying to say. My comprehension is just fine. You should work on being less dickish with you reply's.

It was the Stepan trade I was speaking about. Not Paquette/Coburn - that was OK. And that, if you gain a 2nd and lose another, its not as good as keeping the two 2nds.

 

[Yak]

I don't see Dorion getting fired soon. He will navigate the waters of the draft and expansion draft. as am sure he has been working that already and his drafting has been good for most part.

That being said is only one part of the job and I could see EM promote him to director or player personal and head of scouting.*Fake promotion*. Which is where Dorion belongs honestly.

Bring in a new GM.

Let that GM evaluate the team and DJ next season and decide the date from their and maybe bring in a new assistant or two.

However this may be too smart of a plan for EM.

 

[Oriole]

It was the Stepan trade I was speaking about. Not Paquette/Coburn - that was OK. And that, if you gain a 2nd and lose another, its not as good as keeping the two 2nds.

I agree with that. It would be great if every move worked out. We would have the only perfect GM in NHL history. We get to judge the moves months after they happen and decide which one's to complain about. Not many complaining about the Watson pick up now. The narrative has changed because he's been fantastic.

I was pointing out that we didn't get a second back for Paquette and Coburn. We haven't traded Coburn. Unless you meant we got a second back WITH Paquette and Coburn at the time as being a good deal. That is very different than what you actually wrote. Then why would you go on a rant about other GM's slitting their own throats to help out Tampa? That sort of implies it was a bad deal because we helped another team out of cap trouble.

 

[Big Muddy]

I agree with that. It would be great if every move worked out. We would have the only perfect GM in NHL history. We get to judge the moves months after they happen and decide which one's to complain about. Not many complaining about the Watson pick up now. The narrative has changed because he's been fantastic.

I was pointing out that we didn't get a second back for Paquette and Coburn. We haven't traded Coburn. Unless you meant we got a second back WITH Paquette and Coburn at the time as being a good deal. That is very different than what you actually wrote. Then why would you go on a rant about other GM's slitting their own throats to help out Tampa? That sort of implies it was a bad deal because we helped another team out of cap trouble.

I specifically said in my post that an OK deal for Paquette/Coburn doesn't mean that the Stepan deal should be ignored, or that it is somehow absolved. Yes, the word should have been "with" versus "for": we got a 2nd with Paquette & Coburn. I think we all know that Coburn hasn't been traded yet.

There were many deals made by Dorion over the offseason. Stepan and Coburn/Paquette are just 2 of them. Not sure how much you like the Gudbranson, J Brown & Galchenyuk deals either. Then there's Murray. If you like them, then great - each to his own I guess. Not sure why folks would not bring this up, or not consider this when discussing the subject of Dorion's offseason performance - seems odd.

Always good to consider what the alternatives are you'd think. Many different players could be involved in trades, there are free agents, etc. Some seem to think that's (the alternatives) not even worth considering, or irrelevant for whatever reasons those people have.

I asked a series of logical questions about the deal with TBL because those are relevant and part of the equation when considering this specific trade. Was it a very good trade, or just an OK one? A lot depends on those variables like were there multiple GMs chasing Coburn/Paquette? IF other GMs were interested, what were the offers? I summarized it as an OK deal because we don't have the answers to those questions.

What do you think? Do you think there were multiple GMs pursuing Coburn & Paquette? And if so, what do you think they were offering? Same questions for the Stepan trade. If the interest was low (or non existent), what are the penalties for TBL not being cap compliant? If you have a strong opinion about these deals being good, which you seem to have, you must have an opinion and be able to answer these questions, no?

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I agree with that. It would be great if every move worked out. We would have the only perfect GM in NHL history. We get to judge the moves months after they happen and decide which one's to complain about. Not many complaining about the Watson pick up now. The narrative has changed because he's been fantastic.

I was pointing out that we didn't get a second back for Paquette and Coburn. We haven't traded Coburn. Unless you meant we got a second back WITH Paquette and Coburn at the time as being a good deal. That is very different than what you actually wrote. Then why would you go on a rant about other GM's slitting their own throats to help out Tampa? That sort of implies it was a bad deal because we helped another team out of cap trouble.

Nobody has been hard on Watson because he's done his job most of the time. To say he's been fantastic is a huge stretch. He's been one of the primary penalty killers but the PK has been far from great. He's on pace for about 8 goals in a full season.

He plays hard minutes and doesn't make glaring mistakes. That's about the size of it. He's a decent 4th liner who plays a role on the team but fantastic? I guess we have different definitions of fantastic. And I'm not sure that he'll be needed for the next 3 years.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Nobody has been hard on Watson because he's done his job most of the time. To say he's been fantastic is a huge stretch. He's been one of the primary penalty killers but the PK has been far from great. He's on pace for about 8 goals in a full season.

He plays hard minutes and doesn't make glaring mistakes. That's about the size of it. He's a decent 4th liner who plays a role on the team but fantastic? I guess we have different definitions of fantastic. And I'm not sure that he'll be needed for the next 3 years.

Watson is gutsy as hell... This thread is way off topic.
Shut it down. We have a DJ thread and a Management thread.. some speculative thought tweeted out is now getting into both those territories.

 

[cudi]

Watson is gutsy as hell... This thread is way off topic.
Shut it down. We have a DJ thread and a Management thread.. some speculative thought tweeted out is now getting into both those territories.

Its still on topic. When you debate firing a GM you're bound to deep dive in to his moves to critique whether he should be canned or not.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Its still on topic. When you debate firing a GM you're bound to deep dive in to his moves to critique whether he should be canned or not.

Just saying .. move it to the Management / Dorion thread ... my opinion. Carry on... the tweet is really a nothing burger

 

[cudi]

Just saying .. move it to the Management / Dorion thread ... my opinion. Carry on... the tweet is really a nothing burger

I guess thats for the Mods to decide

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I guess thats for the Mods to decide

hence the "my opinion"

also #FireDorion lol...

 

[Big Muddy]

Nobody has been hard on Watson because he's done his job most of the time. To say he's been fantastic is a huge stretch. He's been one of the primary penalty killers but the PK has been far from great. He's on pace for about 8 goals in a full season.

He plays hard minutes and doesn't make glaring mistakes. That's about the size of it. He's a decent 4th liner who plays a role on the team but fantastic? I guess we have different definitions of fantastic. And I'm not sure that he'll be needed for the next 3 years.

Maybe some people have low expectations about what a GM can do? IDK.

I get the feeling that its better for some to select (cherry pick) one good thing versus dealing with all the other (so called) details. Kind of curious what the answers to my questions will be, or perhaps, if I'll even get any answers.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Maybe some people have low expectations about what a GM can do? IDK.

I get the feeling that its better for some to select (cherry pick) one good thing versus dealing with all the other (so called) details. Kind of curious what the answers to my questions will be, or perhaps, if I'll even get any answers.

I hear ya. But a GM should be judged on how he puts together a team. And even though Watson has played his 4th line role well, it's the collection of acquisitions that is the problem.

Going out and getting Watson, Gudbranson, Brown and Haley was a flawed plan. Forget the fact that Gudbranson, J.Brown and Haley are bad. Even if they played well (for their standards) it doesn't make sense. Tough players are nice to have but you need people who can fill other roles. That was completely ignored.

 

[Big Muddy]

I hear ya. But a GM should be judged on how he puts together a team. And even though Watson has played his 4th line role well, it's the collection of acquisitions that is the problem.

Going out and getting Watson, Gudbranson, Brown and Haley was a flawed plan. Forget the fact that Gudbranson, J.Brown and Haley are bad. Even if they played well (for their standards) it doesn't make sense. Tough players are nice to have but you need people who can fill other roles. That was completely ignored.

Agreed. Senators seemed to have loaded up on the same kind of player. Kind of hard to ignore that.

The other thing to consider was this offseason's COVID economics. If there was ever a good time for a team with cap space to go shopping, it was the offseason that just past. Its a very important & relevant factor that seems to get swept under the rug for some strange reason.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Agreed. Senators seemed to have loaded up on the same kind of player. Kind of hard to ignore that.

The other thing to consider was this offseason's COVID economics. If there was ever a good time for a team with cap space to go shopping, it was the offseason that just past. Its a very important & relevant factor that seems to get swept under the rug for some strange reason.

They spent to get Dadonov and while he has 9 goals I would say he hasn't gelled yet with the team.

But they needed to spend on at least one proven quality defenseman. Instead they went with Gudbranson, Brown and Coburn. There is tons of talk about Stu and Batherson and company needing mentorship from a veteran forward but IMO our skilled D (Chabot, Brannstrom, Wolanin, Zub) need mentorship more than the forwards. And those kinds of players aren't going to learn anything from Erik Gudbranson.

 

[GCK]

IMO our skilled D (Chabot, Brannstrom, Wolanin, Zub) need mentorship more than the forwards. And those kinds of players aren't going to learn anything from Erik Gudbranson.

I am down for that, although isn’t Chabot supposed to be providing some of that ?

Who do you have in mind ?

 

[Oriole]

I specifically said in my post that an OK deal for Paquette/Coburn doesn't mean that the Stepan deal should be ignored, or that it is somehow absolved. Yes, the word should have been "with" versus "for": we got a 2nd with Paquette & Coburn. I think we all know that Coburn hasn't been traded yet.

There were many deals made by Dorion over the offseason. Stepan and Coburn/Paquette are just 2 of them. Not sure how much you like the Gudbranson, J Brown & Galchenyuk deals either. Then there's Murray. If you like them, then great - each to his own I guess. Not sure why folks would not bring this up, or not consider this when discussing the subject of Dorion's offseason performance - seems odd.

Always good to consider what the alternatives are you'd think. Many different players could be involved in trades, there are free agents, etc. Some seem to think that's (the alternatives) not even worth considering, or irrelevant for whatever reasons those people have.

I asked a series of logical questions about the deal with TBL because those are relevant and part of the equation when considering this specific trade. Was it a very good trade, or just an OK one? A lot depends on those variables like were there multiple GMs chasing Coburn/Paquette? IF other GMs were interested, what were the offers? I summarized it as an OK deal because we don't have the answers to those questions.

What do you think? Do you think there were multiple GMs pursuing Coburn & Paquette? And if so, what do you think they were offering? Same questions for the Stepan trade. If the interest was low (or non existent), what are the penalties for TBL not being cap compliant? If you have a strong opinion about these deals being good, which you seem to have, you must have an opinion and be able to answer these questions, no?

So. You wrote your sentence incorrectly giving it a completely different meaning and then reply that my reading comprehension is lacking. Nice. Glad we've sorted that out.

Second highlighted point. I really don't have a strong opinion about this. I am not a GM, don't profess to be one and am certainly not educated enough to pretend to know who was talked to, who was targeted and who asked for what from whom in order to make a decision if any deals are good or bad. I'll leave that for the HF experts who seem to have all the inside knowledge.

I simply thought your line of thinking was flawed when I believed you thought we traded away Paquette and Coburn for a second. Turns out I was right. I couldn't care less about the rest of this stuff.

 

[Big Muddy]

I am down for that, although isn’t Chabot supposed to be providing some of that ?

Who do you have in mind ?

A list of UFA/RFAs that are available in the offseason.

https://www.capfriendly.com/browse/free-agents/2022/caphit/all/defense

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I am down for that, although isn’t Chabot supposed to be providing some of that ?

Who do you have in mind ?

Chabot is still young-ish by defense standards, but yeah he's entering the years where he should be in that role. I think that he's almost never had someone like that to help him along.

As for who we could have got? I would have been thrilled to trade for Devon Toews. He's skilled enough to help talk our skilled guys with decision making and he's good in his own end so he could exerty a positive influence there. The price was what we paid to draft Tyler Kleven. I take a guaranteed top 4 D who is 26 over Tyler Kleven every day of the week and twice on Sunday. There is certainty there and I think there is very little chance that Kleven is ever as good as Toews.

Then on the right side I would have overpaid slightly for Travis Hamonic (he's getting $1.25M this year) on a one or two year deal. He's not what he used to be but can still play good minutes. Can move the puck but is a pretty physical tough players. Give him $2M (one or two year deal) to be a veteran RD.

Chabot - Zaitsev
Toews - Zub
Brann/Wolanin - Hamonic
Reilly

Then you look at improving on Zaitsev in some way for the 2021-22 season.

 

[Oriole]

Nobody has been hard on Watson because he's done his job most of the time. To say he's been fantastic is a huge stretch. He's been one of the primary penalty killers but the PK has been far from great. He's on pace for about 8 goals in a full season.

He plays hard minutes and doesn't make glaring mistakes. That's about the size of it. He's a decent 4th liner who plays a role on the team but fantastic? I guess we have different definitions of fantastic. And I'm not sure that he'll be needed for the next 3 years.

You take one in the throat and not miss a shift and I'll call your play fantastic too. The guy plays exactly the way you want a 4th liner to play and does it at a cap friendly salary. He has played his role really good this year.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

You take one in the throat and not miss a shift and I'll call your play fantastic too. The guy plays exactly the way you want a 4th liner to play and does it at a cap friendly salary. He has played his role really good this year.

Being courageous doesn't make you a great player. It's admirable as hell and courage can HELP you be good but it doesn't mean you're "fantastic". I'd argue that no 4th line player is fantastic.

I agree that he's played his role well though.

 

[Big Muddy]

So. You wrote your sentence incorrectly giving it a completely different meaning and then reply that my reading comprehension is lacking. Nice. Glad we've sorted that out.

Second highlighted point. I really don't have a strong opinion about this. I am not a GM, don't profess to be one and am certainly not educated enough to pretend to know who was talked to, who was targeted and who asked for what from whom in order to make a decision if any deals are good or bad. I'll leave that for the HF experts who seem to have all the inside knowledge.

I simply thought your line of thinking was flawed when I believed you thought we traded away Paquette and Coburn for a second. Turns out I was right. I couldn't care less about the rest of this stuff.

Not even a guess based on your knowledge of what was happening in the NHL at the time? It couldn't possibly be because when you attempt to answer those questions, the answers won't look very good. And it couldn't be that everything else you mentioned is a deflection (trees versus forest). Got it.

There was a thread on the main board about the TBL cap situation. It started late Oct., and went through November and early Dec. I stated several times that any team thinking of dealing with the TBL for one (or more) of their cap dumps should expect heavy compensation from TBL. There was also similar thread about the rumoured Stepan trade (prior to the trade even). I stated there that any team (including Ottawa) should be able to get Stepan for next to (virtually) nothing IF they were even interested at all. My position has been pretty consistent and clear throughout and didn't just change in the last day as you claim. LOL. Its there as part of the archives & hence verifiable.

 

[Oriole]

Being courageous doesn't make you a great player. It's admirable as hell and courage can HELP you be good but it doesn't mean you're "fantastic". I'd argue that no 4th line player is fantastic.

I agree that he's played his role well though.

I think it's all relative. You would be comparing Watson as a 4th liner to all other 4th liners in the league. You're not comparing him to Ovechkin or McDavid. In that regard I think he's been great.

 

[Oriole]

Not even a guess based on your knowledge of what was happening in the NHL at the time? It couldn't possibly be because when you attempt to answer those questions, the answers won't look very good. And it couldn't be that everything else you mentioned is a deflection (trees versus forest). Got it.

There was a thread on the main board about the TBL cap situation. It stated late Oct., and through November and early Dec. I stated several times that any team thinking of dealing with the TBL for one (or more) of their cap dumps should expect heavy compensation. There was also similar thread about the rumoured Stepan trade (prior to the trade even). I stated there that any team (including Ottawa) should be able to get Stepan for next to nothing IF they were even interested at all. My position has been pretty consistent and clear throughout and didn't just change in the last day as you claim. LOL. Its there as part of the archives & hence verifiable.

Nope. No guess at all. Without context speculation is just that. I honestly couldn't care less. You mis-wrote what you really wanted to say and I thought it was a bad take when read as worded. Which is true. Now you're trying some jedi mind trick to flip this around to being my issue.

I'm really happy for you that you knew all these things should have happened,. You're amazing. The original point still stands though. You said we traded Paquette and Coburn for a second. I said you were wrong you told me I needed to work on my reading comprehension. No amount of circling around will change the facts here. Sorry. I accept your apology. I'm moving along now.

 

[Big Muddy]

Nope. No guess at all. Without context speculation is just that. I honestly couldn't care less. You mis-wrote what you really wanted to say and I thought it was a bad take when read as worded. Which is true. Now you're trying some jedi mind trick to flip this around to being my issue.

I'm really happy for you that you knew all these things should have happened,. You're amazing. The original point still stands though. You said we traded Paquette and Coburn for a second. I said you were wrong you told me I needed to work on my reading comprehension. No amount of circling around will change the facts here. Sorry. I accept your apology. I'm moving along now.

Without context? There was plenty of context. If the context wasn't already obvious, it was spelled out in the posts.

I used the wrong preposition, hence the sentence read the opposite of what was intended. You caught that. Congrats. These two subjects have been popular discussions for several months now, both before the trade was executed, and after. My position never changed and was consistent throughout the entire cycle.

Dismissing the circumstances of these trades and saying they are not important is an odd idea. How else do you evaluate how well a GM or team is really doing without considering info like this? Maybe when you do this, it leaves you with thoughts that are uncomfortable and contrary to the position you taken?

Whatever I guess. And, for the record, there was no apology LOL. Those with a penchant for fantasy could probably earn a good living somewhere, Disney maybe. Your right about one thing though, its time to move on!!!