OT: Blues Forum Lounge (Home of All Things OT) - Part XIII

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FrontYardSpecial

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Jan 22, 2014
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It's not just the city (and county) of St. Louis. The entire state of Missouri has always had an identity crisis and been largely divided for hundreds of years. During the Civil War, Missouri maintained dual governments and sent armies and supplies to both the North and South. Several years later the city of St. Louis had its "Great Divorce" from the county and has been dealing with the unforeseen consequences ever since.

IMO this division is largely a byproduct of its centralized geographical location. There's a fair share of southern influence and New Orleans-esque, lazy Mississippi River demeanor, but nothing about St. Louis screams "Dixie" either. It's industrial history is much more intertwined with northern rust belt cities like Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland than with any city in the South.

St. Louis simply has both northern and southern attributes/influences that are similar to other cities located near the Mason–Dixon line.

FWIW I view it as a Midwestern city.
 

ChicagoBlues

Sentient
Oct 24, 2006
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I like the new website format......a lot.

It's different and will take some time to get used to, but I really like the fact that quotes are automatically snipped to save page space.
 

bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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I really don't understand and why people think the county is some great place while the city is inferior. The city drives a lot of the jobs. It has most of the cultural and entertainment resources. People from outside STL aren't thinking of STL Co when they think of STL, unless it is Ferguson that the have on their mind. That's not exactly a ringing endorsement for the county.

Most people living in the region don't see how poor the area is as a whole. The economy is terrible. It was one of the slowest to rebound after the recession. That level of resiliency is abysmal.

The region has experienced massive brain drain despite having two fantastic universities and a few good ones. The reason some talented people are returning or moving to the area for the first time is the innovation district in (you guessed it) the city. Still brain drain has plagued the region.

How about population? St. Louis County is loosing population. The city actually saw a slight gain last census, but it was far behind a lot of other cities. This doesn't bode well for anyone.

But, the STL metro area continues to do what keeps it from thriving. It starts with all of the finger pointing. It continues with the inferiority complex of the city and the superiority complex of the county. But hey, finger pointing is much better than actually trying to make your region better.

When I lived there I could never understand the desire to trash each other. In living in other cities, people have pride towards their city. Why is STL so opposed to unifying for anything other than sports? And by sports, I mean the Cardinals.

This is just too glossy of a view of the city, and too negative of the county. Both are semi-dependent on each other, just more so the city is dependent on the counties, or better to just say the complete metro area. The counties have been hit the past 15 or so years after a lot of bad parts of the city have filtered their way into North County, which has destroyed that area, and those residents have moved to St. Charles, St. Peters, O'Fallon, etc. The city's problems have become North County's problems.

People outside of the city don't think of the counties, not because the counties are bad, it's because the city is so bad, the only thought of people outside is that it is a terrible, dangerous city. The city is viewed the way Detroit is viewed at times among outsiders. Now it isn't that bad in reality, but that's perception. The city is a disaster.

I'd like them to start working together because it is in everyone's interest long-term, but each side has to deal with the reality. The city has to start fixing their problems before they can start expecting help from the county. The counties have to understand that the problems in the city will just find their way to the county, so it's best to try and prevent that in a positive way.
 

TheDizee

Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
Apr 5, 2014
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jim edmonds daughter was at that concert in vegas but luckily she managed to get out ok. very sad day yesterday with that news from vegas and also tom petty passing.
 

David Dennison

I'm a tariff, man.
Jul 5, 2007
5,940
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Grenyarnia
This is just too glossy of a view of the city, and too negative of the county. Both are semi-dependent on each other, just more so the city is dependent on the counties, or better to just say the complete metro area. The counties have been hit the past 15 or so years after a lot of bad parts of the city have filtered their way into North County, which has destroyed that area, and those residents have moved to St. Charles, St. Peters, O'Fallon, etc. The city's problems have become North County's problems

People outside of the city don't think of the counties, not because the counties are bad, it's because the city is so bad, the only thought of people outside is that it is a terrible, dangerous city. The city is viewed the way Detroit is viewed at times among outsiders. Now it isn't that bad in reality, but that's perception. The city is a disaster.

I'd like them to start working together because it is in everyone's interest long-term, but each side has to deal with the reality. The city has to start fixing their problems before they can start expecting help from the county. The counties have to understand that the problems in the city will just find their way to the county, so it's best to try and prevent that in a positive way.

I will agree that people are moving further west/south, but I think we keep getting away from the point that the city/county divide is a really, really arbitrary (historical, but in the end arbitrary) line that does neither side any good. Have you ever had an out of town-er ask you or joke about the murder rate in St. Louis? Try and explain that its a few bad neighborhoods on the opposite side of the metro or that stat is for the city which is only 10% of the metro area, and you will get a 'yeah, sure, whatever you have to tell yourself' look. As you said, perception matters, and no one is buying the excuses that every other city with a high murder rate uses. Do you think funding a soccer stadium would have been an issue if the cost was spread over 2m+ people rather than 300k city residents? Do you think that we can field a competitive Amazon bid when the city and county are feuding over the location?

Bottom line to me is that migration from city to county to further out cities is all about developers/businesses chasing tax credits (or avoiding the 1% city tax) for development, and it is a drain on our region as a whole. The metro region is not the federal government and cant simply print money, we have a finite amount of dollars we can collect in taxes and we can only sacrifice so much before essential services are affected. We have to be strategic as a region when luring federal/private money to the region, and the structure of the city/county/municipalities is the equivalent of a dog chasing its tail.

The county is facing the same problem the city faced 50-60 years ago, its losing population to other cities.countyies East/West/South. Municipalities in the county cant keep bidding against each other for the development of Best Buys and outlet malls while others go vacant. How long is the federal government going to keep allowing/subsidizing places like Eureka, Fenton or Chesterfield to build in floodplains? The Michael Brown investigation shed some light on how cash strapped counties in the north were basically for-profit policing. Its the location of an airport that no one wants to use. It has a lot of problems.
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
16,922
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I will agree that people are moving further west/south, but I think we keep getting away from the point that the city/county divide is a really, really arbitrary (historical, but in the end arbitrary) line that does neither side any good. Have you ever had an out of town-er ask you or joke about the murder rate in St. Louis? Try and explain that its a few bad neighborhoods on the opposite side of the metro or that stat is for the city which is only 10% of the metro area, and you will get a 'yeah, sure, whatever you have to tell yourself' look. As you said, perception matters, and no one is buying the excuses that every other city with a high murder rate uses. Do you think funding a soccer stadium would have been an issue if the cost was spread over 2m+ people rather than 300k city residents? Do you think that we can field a competitive Amazon bid when the city and county are feuding over the location?

Bottom line to me is that migration from city to county to further out cities is all about developers/businesses chasing tax credits (or avoiding the 1% city tax) for development, and it is a drain on our region as a whole. The metro region is not the federal government and cant simply print money, we have a finite amount of dollars we can collect in taxes and we can only sacrifice so much before essential services are affected. We have to be strategic as a region when luring federal/private money to the region, and the structure of the city/county/municipalities is the equivalent of a dog chasing its tail.

The county is facing the same problem the city faced 50-60 years ago, its losing population to other cities.countyies East/West/South. Municipalities in the county cant keep bidding against each other for the development of Best Buys and outlet malls while others go vacant. How long is the federal government going to keep allowing/subsidizing places like Eureka, Fenton or Chesterfield to build in floodplains? The Michael Brown investigation shed some light on how cash strapped counties in the north were basically for-profit policing. Its the location of an airport that no one wants to use. It has a lot of problems.
Terrific post! I am glad someone else sees this.
 
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bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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Most public perception from outside the area is pretty much meaningless and doesn't matter, but I definitely agree with most of what you say. Every case is different and some corporations care about the surrounding area that they locate in and others don't. Emerson and Express Scripts aren't located in the greatest of areas in North County. Cerner in Kansas City has a location or 2 that you wouldn't spend much time in outside of work. My point with that is, to attractive a new business like Amazon, or someone else, location typically isn't the biggest factor, a lot of it comes down to the tax incentives provided. But, it does play some part, depending on the individual company.

We do need the city and the surrounding metro area to work better together, but unfortunately, they are mostly run by morons. The city leadership is a disaster. We also have to face reality that each local government will aim to server their own self-interests. If all sides start to make the right decisions for themselves, then we'll be better off. One area doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice to prop the other up.

In KC, you have a ton of business flock to Johnson County for better business incentives, and you can still have the city thrive. For businesses to want to be located in downtown St. Louis, they need a real reason to. If it ends up not being the most convenient for employees, clients, or taxes, then why put your business there?

In St. Louis, Clayton is a much more attractive location for a business/law firm/accounting firm/etc. than downtown for a multitude of reasons.

As for North County, yeah, it's in terrible shape. That's where I grew up, and I know the problems first-hand. The reason is because of the population shift. That's where people from the city started to migrate to, and former North County residents now live in St. Charles, St. Peters, O'Fallon, etc. Hazelwood School District used to be a quality district, and now it should probably be on probation at some point. Housing prices have tanked over the past 10 or so years there. There's just no incentive for any person that has an upward swing on income level to live and stay there. That's a North County problem though, and that problem came from something that they ultimately had little control over.
 

bleedblue1223

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For the record, I do genuinely enjoy these types of discussions, so don't view this as combative or anything like that, just a good quality discussion.
 
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bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
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In St. Louis, Clayton is a much more attractive location for a business/law firm/accounting firm/etc. than downtown for a multitude of reasons.
This isn't entirely true. Sure AT and Husch are in Clayton but Bryan Cave, HeplerBroom, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, Polsinelli are all downtown
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
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This isn't entirely true. Sure AT and Husch are in Clayton but Bryan Cave, HeplerBroom, Thompson Coburn, Greensfelder, Polsinelli are all downtown

I said it was more attractive IMO, I didn't say all of them are located there or even most are located there. Clayton can only hold so much in their business district, and there is a variety of business there, I was just throwing out those industry examples.
 

Majorityof1

Registered User
Mar 6, 2014
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Central Florida
Most public perception from outside the area is pretty much meaningless and doesn't matter, but I definitely agree with most of what you say. Every case is different and some corporations care about the surrounding area that they locate in and others don't. Emerson and Express Scripts aren't located in the greatest of areas in North County. Cerner in Kansas City has a location or 2 that you wouldn't spend much time in outside of work. My point with that is, to attractive a new business like Amazon, or someone else, location typically isn't the biggest factor, a lot of it comes down to the tax incentives provided. But, it does play some part, depending on the individual company.

We do need the city and the surrounding metro area to work better together, but unfortunately, they are mostly run by morons. The city leadership is a disaster. We also have to face reality that each local government will aim to server their own self-interests. If all sides start to make the right decisions for themselves, then we'll be better off. One area doesn't necessarily have to sacrifice to prop the other up.

Right now, especially in the Midwest, the number one economic development driver is shifting away from tax incentives and moving more and more to available talent. The game in the economic development world is a competition for the best and brightest young minds. And for that, public perception outside of a city matters a very great deal. Companies are very much aware of this trend as well. They will not spend hundreds of millions on a place that will be leaking talent, as it would impinge on their hiring ability. For a site like Amazon, every municipality is going to offer the max tax incentives allowed by state statute. That is not even a point of discussion, it will just be assumed. At the end of the day, the value of the tax incentives will only be a portion of the other financial incentives (training dollars, building expenses, infrastructure work to prepare for the site). Don't get me wrong, for smaller projects there can be a vast difference, and the more incentives the better. However, for major companies, incentives won't make or break a project and everyone is putting their best foot forward.

So in the case of an Amazon HQ, incentives are important, but they will be fairly commensurate from community to community. If I had to guess, I'd say the two top factors for amazon are talent and logistics. When you give free two-day shipping to millions of customers through their prime programming, logistics is key. Both the internal logistics within the facility, but also transportation of goods and people. Traffic, access from available sites to highways and airports, potentially even rail, all matter. Then you need a place that people will want to live and work. Since this is a second headquarters, a place where Amazon execs will want to go as well. Amazon is also a tech company where perception directly effects their sales and talent attraction efforts. So certain cultural and societal perceptions must be maintained.

They need to hire 50,000 people. That is roughly 3.5% of the entire workforce pool in the StL metro area. That is all but a few of the current unemployed. Believe me, nobody wants to hire all of the unemployed, as when you get down to 2-3%, they are unemployed for a reason. People will have to move there, or commute from the surrounding area. These new people will be needed to work for both Amazon, and for the companies that Amazon steals workers from. More and more, people are refusing to move or commute, no matter how good the job, to place they don't like. If St. Louis doesn't change its image, it is going to find itself struggling more and more to attract talent, and as a consequence large site location projects.

That doesn't mean its impossible for St. Louis. They are centrally located, have a good airport, large population and plenty of things to do. If they have the right site that can support such a project, that can mean as much on the micro-level of the site itself as the macro level of city-wide data, depending on the needs of the project. Because every project has vastly different needs. I have worked as a site selection consultant (never on anything near Amazon level), and currently work in a local ED office (again, not on the level to compete for Amazon). From my experience, I can tell you that the decision matrices generally have much the same variables, but the relative weights are vastly different. And the trend is definitely moving away from financial incentives to factors that effect daily operations (access to supplies/customers, access to airport/rail/highways/ports, cost and availability of labor, quality of higher education in important fields and likelihood of that talent staying, etc). Almost all of my efforts as a LEDO right now, are spent on talent attraction, retention and development.

I totally agree about working together. The more you can work together, the better it is for your self interest. A region pooling its resources has a better shot than a smaller municipality. A project that lands in your region is good for the region and even state, even if it doesn't land in your community. Regions where communities compete against each other, end up hurting themselves by hurting their neighbor.

TLDR - I actually work in the field and from my observation, community perception as it relates to talent attraction, is growing more and more important, and will be critical to Amazon.
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,863
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For sure, and financial incentives haven't really ever been the biggest factor, and no city is perfect. In Kansas City, you have airlines that were threatening to leave if they didn't build a new airport. It's much more complex and all cities have different pros and cons, so it's not like St. Louis is just way behind everyone, it just has different issues and is behind some other cities. Different companies weigh things differently, so some may prefer it and others may not.

The negative areas of St. Louis for the way it's viewed is isolated enough, where it's not really going to completely drive talent away from the area, if anything, it just means that more people will just live in the Metro area, which tends to happen as people get older anyway.

Cities need to ensure that they attract long-term industries. In the next 10-50 years, technology is going to start to destroy some job markets as we know it, and cities need to make sure that they attract the industries that will be created through the technology and aren't left in the dust.
 

Twisted Blue

Registered User
Feb 4, 2013
2,268
465
St. Louis
Most public perception from outside the area is pretty much meaningless and doesn't matter, ...
I respectfully disagree with the idea that public opinion outside the area doesn't matter. Those opinions become accepted as truth (justifiable in some areas), and make it difficult for the St. Louis area to attract businesses. How can St.Louis put together a plan that convinces Amazon to locate another headquarters in the area when Amazon's executives see the city as a burning place of instability? Kroenke told the NFL that St. Louis isn't a viable place for a NFL team. Despite his motives, he got what he wanted and the St. Louis area is now viewed as nonviable to NFL. Even the residents of the St. Louis area begin to believe the worst of each other (how many people in Ferguson really participated in those riots?) and make cooperation among local governments almost impossible. The only way to turn this perception around is to promote the benefits St. Louis offers and break down the barriers between the people of St. Louis city and county. Benefits of St. Louis: Extremely affordable cost of living, cheap commercial property, reputable institutions of education, amazing public parks (including one of the best zoo's in the world), and natural transportation (yes, the waterways still mean something). We do see some optimistic signs of change: Gas Light district, rehab of old buildings to condos and lofts, businesses moving downtown for cheaper rent (out of Clayton) and new churches springing up in the husks of the old.
 

bluesfan94

Registered User
Jan 7, 2008
31,019
8,230
St. Louis
Hey, don't forget Lewis Rice!

I completely did; my mistake. Is that where you're at? Feel free to PM; I'm a 2L at SLU and curious.

I said it was more attractive IMO, I didn't say all of them are located there or even most are located there. Clayton can only hold so much in their business district, and there is a variety of business there, I was just throwing out those industry examples.

I just don't think that's necessarily true with regards to law. The courthouses (both state and federal) being downtown helps a lot. Obviously Clayton has a courthouse, too, but it doesn't have EDMO

That doesn't mean its impossible for St. Louis. They are centrally located, have a good airport, large population and plenty of things to do.

I would also think that having WUSTL here would help. That's a good talent pool to draw from.

Kroenke told the NFL that St. Louis isn't a viable place for a NFL team. Despite his motives, he got what he wanted and the St. Louis area is now viewed as nonviable to NFL.

I don't think that last line is fair, especially given the attendance problems in LA.
 

bleedblue1223

Registered User
Jan 21, 2011
51,863
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I just don't think that's necessarily true with regards to law. The courthouses (both state and federal) being downtown helps a lot. Obviously Clayton has a courthouse, too, but it doesn't have EDMO

Yeah, you got a point when it comes to the law firms.
 

David Dennison

I'm a tariff, man.
Jul 5, 2007
5,940
1,444
Grenyarnia
I respectfully disagree with the idea that public opinion outside the area doesn't matter. Those opinions become accepted as truth (justifiable in some areas), and make it difficult for the St. Louis area to attract businesses. How can St.Louis put together a plan that convinces Amazon to locate another headquarters in the area when Amazon's executives see the city as a burning place of instability? Kroenke told the NFL that St. Louis isn't a viable place for a NFL team. Despite his motives, he got what he wanted and the St. Louis area is now viewed as nonviable to NFL. Even the residents of the St. Louis area begin to believe the worst of each other (how many people in Ferguson really participated in those riots?) and make cooperation among local governments almost impossible. The only way to turn this perception around is to promote the benefits St. Louis offers and break down the barriers between the people of St. Louis city and county. Benefits of St. Louis: Extremely affordable cost of living, cheap commercial property, reputable institutions of education, amazing public parks (including one of the best zoo's in the world), and natural transportation (yes, the waterways still mean something). We do see some optimistic signs of change: Gas Light district, rehab of old buildings to condos and lofts, businesses moving downtown for cheaper rent (out of Clayton) and new churches springing up in the husks of the old.

Yeah, I saw the Rams moving more that the NFL wanting Kroenke's deep pockets building the $2b+ stadium. Davis and Spanos combined dont come close to Kroenke's (and families) wealth. Kroenke still took a hefty shit on the city on his way out, as he commissioned a report to show why St. Louis was a disaster.
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
16,922
5,693
I said it was more attractive IMO, I didn't say all of them are located there or even most are located there. Clayton can only hold so much in their business district, and there is a variety of business there, I was just throwing out those industry examples.
But your making it sound like an overwhelming majority want to move there. Your preference doesn’t translate across the board. While Clayton is attractive, so is Downtown. There are many synergies that make it attractive. Many of these characteristics cannot be provided by the county. Conversely, the city cannot or doesn’t provide things the city can. You can make it sound like one side benefits more, but who cares if both sides are loosing as a result of not working together?

Right now, especially in the Midwest, the number one economic development driver is shifting away from tax incentives and moving more and more to available talent. The game in the economic development world is a competition for the best and brightest young minds. And for that, public perception outside of a city matters a very great deal. Companies are very much aware of this trend as well. They will not spend hundreds of millions on a place that will be leaking talent, as it would impinge on their hiring ability. For a site like Amazon, every municipality is going to offer the max tax incentives allowed by state statute. That is not even a point of discussion, it will just be assumed. At the end of the day, the value of the tax incentives will only be a portion of the other financial incentives (training dollars, building expenses, infrastructure work to prepare for the site). Don't get me wrong, for smaller projects there can be a vast difference, and the more incentives the better. However, for major companies, incentives won't make or break a project and everyone is putting their best foot forward.

So in the case of an Amazon HQ, incentives are important, but they will be fairly commensurate from community to community. If I had to guess, I'd say the two top factors for amazon are talent and logistics. When you give free two-day shipping to millions of customers through their prime programming, logistics is key. Both the internal logistics within the facility, but also transportation of goods and people. Traffic, access from available sites to highways and airports, potentially even rail, all matter. Then you need a place that people will want to live and work. Since this is a second headquarters, a place where Amazon execs will want to go as well. Amazon is also a tech company where perception directly effects their sales and talent attraction efforts. So certain cultural and societal perceptions must be maintained.

They need to hire 50,000 people. That is roughly 3.5% of the entire workforce pool in the StL metro area. That is all but a few of the current unemployed. Believe me, nobody wants to hire all of the unemployed, as when you get down to 2-3%, they are unemployed for a reason. People will have to move there, or commute from the surrounding area. These new people will be needed to work for both Amazon, and for the companies that Amazon steals workers from. More and more, people are refusing to move or commute, no matter how good the job, to place they don't like. If St. Louis doesn't change its image, it is going to find itself struggling more and more to attract talent, and as a consequence large site location projects.

That doesn't mean its impossible for St. Louis. They are centrally located, have a good airport, large population and plenty of things to do. If they have the right site that can support such a project, that can mean as much on the micro-level of the site itself as the macro level of city-wide data, depending on the needs of the project. Because every project has vastly different needs. I have worked as a site selection consultant (never on anything near Amazon level), and currently work in a local ED office (again, not on the level to compete for Amazon). From my experience, I can tell you that the decision matrices generally have much the same variables, but the relative weights are vastly different. And the trend is definitely moving away from financial incentives to factors that effect daily operations (access to supplies/customers, access to airport/rail/highways/ports, cost and availability of labor, quality of higher education in important fields and likelihood of that talent staying, etc). Almost all of my efforts as a LEDO right now, are spent on talent attraction, retention and development.

I totally agree about working together. The more you can work together, the better it is for your self interest. A region pooling its resources has a better shot than a smaller municipality. A project that lands in your region is good for the region and even state, even if it doesn't land in your community. Regions where communities compete against each other, end up hurting themselves by hurting their neighbor.

TLDR - I actually work in the field and from my observation, community perception as it relates to talent attraction, is growing more and more important, and will be critical to Amazon.
i work in an allied field and can verify that this is true. Excellent post by the way!
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
16,922
5,693
I completely did; my mistake. Is that where you're at? Feel free to PM; I'm a 2L at SLU and curious.



I just don't think that's necessarily true with regards to law. The courthouses (both state and federal) being downtown helps a lot. Obviously Clayton has a courthouse, too, but it doesn't have EDMO



I would also think that having WUSTL here would help. That's a good talent pool to draw from.



I don't think that last line is fair, especially given the attendance problems in LA.
Between SLU, WashU and Webster, there are plenty of good universities. Now STL just needs jobs for that talent so they don’t loose them.
 

Linkens Mastery

Conductor of the TankTown Express
Jan 15, 2014
19,015
16,373
Hyrule
This site has crashed my Google Chrome and Microsoft Edge multiple times since the update. It's freaking ridiculous.
 

Linkens Mastery

Conductor of the TankTown Express
Jan 15, 2014
19,015
16,373
Hyrule
It's absolutely horrible at times. Like, I have a decent PC (I5-4690k OC to 4.2, 1060 6GB, 16GB RAM) and I can usually run multiple things at once no problems. But if I'm only running this site in the browser it crashes, or slows to a crawl where I have to exit and reenter the site, not to mention having to log in multiple times because it keeps logging me out, even with the "Keep me logged in" checked.
 

TheDizee

Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
Apr 5, 2014
19,979
12,740
ya same. our rigs are pretty similar and i lag severely on this site alone. only site it happens on and didnt happen before the layout change.

i7 3770k OC'd to 4.2ghz
16gb ram
1060 6gb
Chrome browser
 
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