OT: Blues Forum Lounge (Home of All Things OT) - Part XIII

[MissouriMook]

So apparently I have been on HF for 10 years now. Is that something to celebrate or should I be concerned?

That depends. Will there be cake?

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

Oquendo back as third base coach next year

 

[Vladys Gumption]

I'm genuinely shocked that Oquendo is back at third base. Super happy for sure, but very surprised.

 

[TheDizee]

oquendo should be the damn manager already.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I really think Mo screwed the pooch when Oquendo got passed over. To me Mo saw him as part of the TLR regime and wanted his own yes-man. But I completely agree that Oquendo should have been the damn manager.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Picked up Mario Odyssey. Not bad, it looks absolutely stunning.

 

[TheDizee]

its a shame we have matheny as manager still because the rest of the staff outside of Mabry is good.

get rid of mikey and mabry. make Jose manager already

 

[TheDizee]

world series has been fun to watch

 

[PiggySmalls]

Congrats Houston. I know it means a lot to the people of that city.

 

[TheDizee]

congrats to beltran!!

 

[Kreegz2]

With the Astros' World Series win, the Blues are now the third oldest franchise in NA sports to have never won a championship. Only the Atlanta Falcons(enfranchised in 1966) and the Texas Rangers(enfranchised in 1961) are older than us and are still looking for their first title.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

With the Astros' World Series win, the Blues are now the third oldest franchise in NA sports to have never won a championship. Only the Atlanta Falcons(enfranchised in 1966) and the Texas Rangers(enfranchised in 1961) are older than us and are still looking for their first title.

And to think that within the last 6 years both the rangers and Falcons had a championship all but wrapped up and epically blew it.

 

[The Note]

And to think that within the last 6 years both the rangers and Falcons had a championship all but wrapped up and epically blew it.

Sounds like it’s the Blues turn!

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

As a city resident, I really hope this bill passes:

https://nextstl.com/2017/11/summary-bb130-financing-source-scottrade-center-upgrades/


It is absolutely maddening that Ordinance 70473 is just another concealed attempt to pile the burden of cost onto the city residents, a third of whom live near the poverty line. Not to mention that only ~11% of patrons even live in the city.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Well here's the tough part of the whole Scottrade debate: the city owns the building so ultimately the city is the one responsible for upgrading and maintaining it. The Blues just happen to be a long term tenant. Not to mention that the city makes a ton of tax revenue on events outside of hockey. The building is dated and needed to be updated if they wanted to continue to attract events other than Blues games.

 

[BangarangxRufio]

That depends. Will there be cake?

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

Well here's the tough part of the whole Scottrade debate: the city owns the building so ultimately the city is the one responsible for upgrading and maintaining it. The Blues just happen to be a long term tenant. Not to mention that the city makes a ton of tax revenue on events outside of hockey. The building is dated and needed to be updated if they wanted to continue to attract events other than Blues games.

At the end of the day, our fragmented city/county government setup is creating all of these problems. I mean, how does a region that relies on the use of Scottrade expect a relative minority of the regional population (a third of whom live in poverty) to pay for all of these things that benefit the entire region, not just the city? If STL county started kicking in some coin for these things then maybe these sorts of issues wouldn't arise in the first place.

If the city fails the whole region fails.

 

[MissouriMook]

At the end of the day, our fragmented city/county government setup is creating all of these problems. I mean, how does a region that relies on the use of Scottrade expect a relative minority of the regional population (a third of whom live in poverty) to pay for all of these things that benefit the entire region, not just the city? If STL county started kicking in some coin for these things then maybe these sorts of issues wouldn't arise in the first place.

If the city fails the whole region fails.

Not really interested in getting into a drawn out discussion on this, but as a County resident I can't help but ask why I have to be part of the solution? The City is in the shape it is in because of years of overt corruption and mismanagement. Fewer people live in the City now than 50 years ago because fewer people WANT to live in the City, for the very reasons the City brought upon itself. Every time one of these discussions starts we hear the same tired argument - more people from the County use these "amenities" (Scottrade, Zoo, etc.) so they should help pay for them.

Fine. So if I'm going to have to help pay for them, shouldn't I also be entitled to have these amenities closer to where I live (i.e. - in the County) so I don't have to drive as far to use them and they will create jobs for the people in the County instead of in the City? The pattern that emerges is the same every time one of these projects comes up.

City insists they need the project there for "revitalization"
City gets the project
Corruption causes fiscal mismanagement of the project
City says County should help pay for project because reasons

Look, I get the whole benefit of a City/County unification, but the only way that is going to be attractive to both parties is if the lesser of the two gets their shit together and actually becomes an attractive partner. Otherwise it is just one of the two entities asking the other to "join forces" basically so other taxpayers can solve the problems they have created. In 2017? No thanks.

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

Not really interested in getting into a drawn out discussion on this, but as a County resident I can't help but ask why I have to be part of the solution? The City is in the shape it is in because of years of overt corruption and mismanagement. Fewer people live in the City now than 50 years ago because fewer people WANT to live in the City, for the very reasons the City brought upon itself. Every time one of these discussions starts we hear the same tired argument - more people from the County use these "amenities" (Scottrade, Zoo, etc.) so they should help pay for them.

Fine. So if I'm going to have to help pay for them, shouldn't I also be entitled to have these amenities closer to where I live (i.e. - in the County) so I don't have to drive as far to use them and they will create jobs for the people in the County instead of in the City? The pattern that emerges is the same every time one of these projects comes up.

City insists they need the project there for "revitalization"
City gets the project
Corruption causes fiscal mismanagement of the project
City says County should help pay for project because reasons

Look, I get the whole benefit of a City/County unification, but the only way that is going to be attractive to both parties is if the lesser of the two gets their **** together and actually becomes an attractive partner. Otherwise it is just one of the two entities asking the other to "join forces" basically so other taxpayers can solve the problems they have created. In 2017? No thanks.

First off, the idea that fewer people live in the city than 50 years ago simply because of "corruption and mismanagement" is simply false. People fled the city in droves after WWII, primarily due to white flight and policies that incentivized suburbanization. This idea that "the city caused its own demise" is a false narrative that comes up again and again whenever anyone wants to trash the city. The abandonment of the city in the 50's, the resulting loss of sustainable tax base, and other larger longterm issues at the federal level (e.g.dissolution of anti-trust laws) led to our region's longterm decline.

Note that I said "region" and not city at the end there. STL county is currently on a downward trajectory and is bleeding population as indicated by recent census data. The whole region is suffering, not just the city. So people in STL county can sit back and trash the city all they want, and claim that the latter needs to get its shit together, but in reality STL county is suffering from government fragmentation just as much (if not more) as the city is. No other metro area in the country has 90+ municipalities. I guess all of those other metros know something that we don't?

If you see the clear benefits of a city/county merger, great. I'm glad you've at least made that realization. But we need to stop saying things like the "city needs the county" or vice versa. The city and county both need each other be competitive in a global economy, and this attitude that "we'll only think about being cooperative if you get your shit together" is the type of attitude that contributes to the dysfunction in our region.

Edit: You also say that "fewer people want to live in the city," but this is also pretty much false. The city has ranked as one of the top locations for young professional millennials within the past few years, due to low rent costs, the growth of Cortex innovation district, the presence of major research institutions, and revitalized neighborhoods such as the CWE, the Grove, Tower Grove, etc. The city has been booming and is setting itself up for major growth within the next decade or two, but many county folk like to ignore that for whatever reason. It's as if people don't want our city and region to succeed....

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Blizzard is making World of Warcraft Classic realms!!

 

[MissouriMook]

First off, the idea that fewer people live in the city than 50 years ago simply because of "corruption and mismanagement" is simply false. People fled the city in droves after WWII, primarily due to white flight and policies that incentivized suburbanization. This idea that "the city caused its own demise" is a false narrative that comes up again and again whenever anyone wants to trash the city. The abandonment of the city in the 50's, the resulting loss of sustainable tax base, and other larger longterm issues at the federal level (e.g.dissolution of anti-trust laws) led to our region's longterm decline.

I think if you peel back the layers of this onion, you will find that most of the issues that caused things like "white flight" and erosion of tax base can be traced back to the city "leaders" of the period from post-WWII through (probably) the 80s and 90s acting more in self-interest than in the interest of the city and it's taxpayers. Frustrations over lack of services vs. taxes paid are the kind of things that make suburban life more appealing.

Note that I said "region" and not city at the end there. STL county is currently on a downward trajectory and is bleeding population as indicated by recent census data. The whole region is suffering, not just the city. So people in STL county can sit back and trash the city all they want, and claim that the latter needs to get its **** together, but in reality STL county is suffering from government fragmentation just as much (if not more) as the city is. No other metro area in the country has 90+ municipalities. I guess all of those other metros know something that we don't?

I think the fact that our region has become so wide-spread, with barely 10% of the population living in the city proper, does more to support my argument than it does yours. The fact that St. Louis County is losing a portion of its population over the last 25 years to St. Charles, Jefferson and Washington counties demonstrates that the "leadership" problems that have plagued the city for decades are seeping into the St. Louis County government as well, where more taxes are being asked of the taxpayers while services are arguably stagnant or declining.

If you see the clear benefits of a city/county merger, great. I'm glad you've at least made that realization. But we need to stop saying things like the "city needs the county" or vice versa. The city and county both need each other be competitive in a global economy, and this attitude that "we'll only think about being cooperative if you get your **** together" is the type of attitude that contributes to the dysfunction in our region.

I don't disagree that both the City and County need each other, but let's not kid ourselves that the need is balanced. If the goal of you and your fellow citizens of the City of St. Louis was unified regional effort that benefits all citizens of the region, then we wouldn't be hearing "this has to be developed downtown...it's vital to the region" every time a new project is proposed. This whole idea of "the region needs it but it has to be in the City" is a farce, and Ms. Spencer's assertion that regional citizens that live outside of the City limits are somehow obligated to fund the re-vitalization of a building owned by the City comes across as nothing more than a cash grab.

Edit: You also say that "fewer people want to live in the city," but this is also pretty much false. The city has ranked as one of the top locations for young professional millennials within the past few years, due to low rent costs, the growth of Cortex innovation district, the presence of major research institutions, and revitalized neighborhoods such as the CWE, the Grove, Tower Grove, etc. The city has been booming and is setting itself up for major growth within the next decade or two, but many county folk like to ignore that for whatever reason. It's as if people don't want our city and region to succeed....

I will end by standing by my statement that "fewer people want to live in the City" by stating this simple fact - fewer people living in the City proper is the most compelling argument that fewer people want to.

 

[tfriede2]

First off, the idea that fewer people live in the city than 50 years ago simply because of "corruption and mismanagement" is simply false. People fled the city in droves after WWII, primarily due to white flight and policies that incentivized suburbanization. This idea that "the city caused its own demise" is a false narrative that comes up again and again whenever anyone wants to trash the city. The abandonment of the city in the 50's, the resulting loss of sustainable tax base, and other larger longterm issues at the federal level (e.g.dissolution of anti-trust laws) led to our region's longterm decline.

Note that I said "region" and not city at the end there. STL county is currently on a downward trajectory and is bleeding population as indicated by recent census data. The whole region is suffering, not just the city. So people in STL county can sit back and trash the city all they want, and claim that the latter needs to get its **** together, but in reality STL county is suffering from government fragmentation just as much (if not more) as the city is. No other metro area in the country has 90+ municipalities. I guess all of those other metros know something that we don't?

If you see the clear benefits of a city/county merger, great. I'm glad you've at least made that realization. But we need to stop saying things like the "city needs the county" or vice versa. The city and county both need each other be competitive in a global economy, and this attitude that "we'll only think about being cooperative if you get your **** together" is the type of attitude that contributes to the dysfunction in our region.

Edit: You also say that "fewer people want to live in the city," but this is also pretty much false. The city has ranked as one of the top locations for young professional millennials within the past few years, due to low rent costs, the growth of Cortex innovation district, the presence of major research institutions, and revitalized neighborhoods such as the CWE, the Grove, Tower Grove, etc. The city has been booming and is setting itself up for major growth within the next decade or two, but many county folk like to ignore that for whatever reason. It's as if people don't want our city and region to succeed....

I don't really have an invested opinion in this debate, but I'm curious how the dissolution (relaxation) of anti-trust laws at the federal level led to the region's longterm decline? I mostly ask because I'm taking an antitrust course right now but don't know too much about the history of STL. McDonnel Douglas and TWA come to mind, however.

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

I don't really have an invested opinion in this debate, but I'm curious how the dissolution (relaxation) of anti-trust laws at the federal level led to the region's longterm decline? I mostly ask because I'm taking an antitrust course right now but don't know too much about the history of STL. McDonnel Douglas and TWA come to mind, however.

This article provides a good perspective on the matter:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/lo...cle_d2c39676-33e9-5999-930b-ca4fdef09bee.html


The question then becomes: If all of the things the author described are true, why didn't these policy changes affect other midwestern/rust belt metros in the same way? I think the answer is obvious. St. Louis, as it is currently structured with 90+ competing municipalities, has prevented our region from being able to compete with regions that have already merged and combined their city/county efforts (e.g. Indianapolis, Nashville, etc.). Thus we didn't have that buffering effect, and our fortune 500 companies slowly got eaten up one by one over the years.

When businesses are competing in a global environment, they’re not going to want to see competition among local communities.

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

I think if you peel back the layers of this onion, you will find that most of the issues that caused things like "white flight" and erosion of tax base can be traced back to the city "leaders" of the period from post-WWII through (probably) the 80s and 90s acting more in self-interest than in the interest of the city and it's taxpayers. Frustrations over lack of services vs. taxes paid are the kind of things that make suburban life more appealing.

Do you have any specific examples of this? It's easy to say "well the city leaders have always been this way," but that seems like a cop out since St. Louis never really started its decline until the tax base moved out to the county.

Moving further and further west to avoid taxes is great, but what happens when those utilities wear out over time? We are seeing this happen in older municipalities and it will happen to newer ones eventually. Not exactly sustainable for a region that's already experiencing decline.

https://nextstl.com/2016/10/how-we-subsidize-spread-out-places-via-utilities/

I think the fact that our region has become so wide-spread, with barely 10% of the population living in the city proper, does more to support my argument than it does yours. The fact that St. Louis County is losing a portion of its population over the last 25 years to St. Charles, Jefferson and Washington counties demonstrates that the "leadership" problems that have plagued the city for decades are seeping into the St. Louis County government as well, where more taxes are being asked of the taxpayers while services are arguably stagnant or declining.

While those sorts of things are unfortunate, they don't really lend themselves to be the root causes of a large-scale economic decline. Every local government in the country experiences some degree of corruption, so you can't just superficially chalk up the primary reason for St. Louis' entire decline as "dirty politicians."

And well, yes, more taxes are being asked because the current setup of STL county with 90+ municipalities is costing the county exorbitant amounts of money due to administrative costs. Not to mention that, as I mentioned above, the older municipalities and suburban areas are starting to see their utilities age slowly into a state of disrepair.

I don't disagree that both the City and County need each other, but let's not kid ourselves that the need is balanced. If the goal of you and your fellow citizens of the City of St. Louis was unified regional effort that benefits all citizens of the region, then we wouldn't be hearing "this has to be developed downtown...it's vital to the region" every time a new project is proposed. This whole idea of "the region needs it but it has to be in the City" is a farce, and Ms. Spencer's assertion that regional citizens that live outside of the City limits are somehow obligated to fund the re-vitalization of a building owned by the City comes across as nothing more than a cash grab.

It's just a reality that more young professionals want to live in dense urban centers rather than suburbs:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/24/...employment-growth-shrinks-in-the-suburbs.html

Other regions have taken note of this over the years and have bolstered their urban core to compete in a global economy. This idea that we spread everything out throughout the counties, despite their continued decline, doesn't really match up with what other competitive regions are doing. Just look at Nashville and their 10 year downtown development plan that uses combined city/county funding.

I will end by standing by my statement that "fewer people want to live in the City" by stating this simple fact - fewer people living in the City proper is the most compelling argument that fewer people want to.

I don't think you can within reason argue that fewer people currently want to live in the city (in the year 2017) by concluding that "fewer people live in the city than in 1950." That doesn't really say anything about the trajectory of the city's population growth with younger professionals.

 

[Celtic Note]

As a city resident, I really hope this bill passes:

https://nextstl.com/2017/11/summary-bb130-financing-source-scottrade-center-upgrades/


It is absolutely maddening that Ordinance 70473 is just another concealed attempt to pile the burden of cost onto the city residents, a third of whom live near the poverty line. Not to mention that only ~11% of patrons even live in the city.

As a resident of nowhere close to the STL Metro, I hope it passes. With STL being a fragmented mess, this is the only viable and fair way forward.

The Entertainment tax should go away too. Living in Chicago, people are more than willing to pay to go to world class Zoos and Museums. If you use the facility pay for it. Don’t put a ridiculous burden on a group of people so other people can skate by and use the services for free.


As for the demise of the city, white flight killed it. Racism and the quest for more space at a reduced cost created many huge problems. The decline of the city was just one of them. We could go into countless reasons why sprawl is destructive and unhealthy, but that’s a whole other ball of wax.

The line drawn by the city wasn’t particularly helpful, but all cities draw lines. Falling back on the whole, “the city did it to itself” is just one huge cop out. It’s reassigning blame, so people can act like they are not part of the problem. The city and region not thriving is everyone’s problem and everyone plays a role in exacerbating it or helping solve it. The whole us versus them mindset is juvenile and self defeating. Regions that have come together are significantly out performing STL in economic success, health and wellness, and quality of life metrics.

Just look at cities like Denver and Nashville. They both were worse off than STL in many metrics not long ago, but they are on a significant upswing while STL, aside from the innovation community and healthcare (BJC, Wash U, and SLU), has stagnated.