Better GM? Toronto vs. Winnipeg

[Whileee]

Relax. The Jets have had a great roster for the past 3 seasons. They've just managed to **** the bed last few years. They weren't some low grade team that was building from scratch. You've had half your core in place for 3/4 years now. The only reason the Jets haven't been underachieving poops this year is because your goal-tending and defence isn't sucking ass as usual. If Helly comes back down to earth, the Jets aren't as good as they are right now.

You really don't know much about the Jets or their recent history, do you? It's okay to admit it.

 

[Volica]

Chevy.
The guy stayed ultra patient, got a cupboard filled with ridiculous prospects. Drafted outside the top 10 incredibly well... Made a big trade when one came up and made his team better.

I'm not a huge Lou guy, I think he hurt the Devils more than helped them nearing the end of his tenure there. Outside of the Andersen trade, nothing really to write home about.

 

[cneely]

Relax. The Jets have had a great roster for the past 3 seasons. They've just managed to **** the bed last few years. They weren't some low grade team that was building from scratch. You've had half your core in place for 3/4 years now. The only reason the Jets haven't been underachieving poops this year is because your goal-tending and defence isn't sucking ass as usual. If Helly comes back down to earth, the Jets aren't as good as they are right now.

Laine, Connor, Ehlers, Morrissey, Trouba, Scheifele, Hellebuyck, Lowry, Copp, Armia, Tanev, Kulikov, Roslovic, were all either not on the team 3 years ago, or were incredibly young. Scheifele being the oldest at 22. That's literally half the team.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Actually if memory serves, the Jets led for the vast majority of all 4 of those games.

5/6 Games against Washington went to overtime and every game was decided by 1 goal. I can play this game myself and claim with a little more luck the Leafs had a legit chance to win that series.

 

[suprvilce]

The true Leafs rebuild was started with the firing of Carlyle and appointing of Horachek as the head coach. So late part of the 14/15 season and if i remember correctly the staff purge (scouts ect.) was in that same offseason, a day or two after last game no? So when we judge the two GM's in the pool here, we should take into account how long certain managers have been (re)building their teams.

As a Leafs fan i'll say Cheveldayoff. He built patiently and added lots of talent through draft. I don't think Winnipeg being near the top of standings is much of a fluke. On the other hand i think Leafs still have some growing to do to get there.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The true Leafs rebuild was started with the firing of Carlyle and appointing of Horachek as the head coach. So late part of the 14/15 season and if i remember correctly the staff purge (scouts ect.) was in that same offseason, a day or two after last game no? So when we judge the two GM's in the pool here, we should take into account how long certain managers have been (re)building their teams.

For the record Shanahan had fired Dave Nonis, Peter Horachek and a lot of others the day after their final game of the 2014-2015 season.

 

[cneely]

5/6 Games against Washington went to overtime and every game was decided by 1 goal. I can play this game myself and claim with a little more luck the Leafs had a legit chance to win that series.

I'm not saying they didn't, but to suggest the Jets were blown out of the water is not true at all.

 

[nobody]

you don't know what you're talking about
helley actually has regressed slightly since his start
the jets are actually playing better than they were at the beginning of the season

the jets still didn't have to deliberately tank to get where they were
they stayed true to the draft and develop

the jets got lucky getting laine. they didn't try to tank for a number 2 spot

Jets weren't bad enough to deliberately tank even if they wanted to. Leafs filled their roster with 3rd/4th line guys and AHLers. All their top guns were "hurt". They were doing a full blown rebuild. I don't know why that's a bad thing in your mind. You seem to have some sort of a stigma against bad teams being super bad on purpose to draft high.

And Helle is still rocking great numbers even with his slight regression. Him and Wheeler have been the reason why your team has been this good so far this season. Wheeler I believe is as good as his numbers show and he is in his prime. Helle was playing out of his mind good and I don't think he's anywhere near as good as his numbers were.

Just be happy your team is doing good and don't try to discredit teams for doing a proper rebuild. There have been multiple teams in recent times who have tanked on purpose and we know where they're all currently sitting. Leafs did the tank properly and have been patient with their players and developed a farm system that is the best in the AHL atm. Jets have done likewise except they were never TRYING TO BE BAD, they were underachievers playing in a tough division.

 

[Peggy]

In 5/6 games against Washington went to overtime and every game was decided by 1 goal. I can play this game myself and claim with a little more luck the Leafs had a legit chance to win that series.

the jets lead the majority of the series despite being 4-0 swept
what part don't you get that the leafs still lost in the first round?

"Ask any racer, and real racer, it doesn't matter how much you win by, winning is winning.
Ask any racer, any real racer. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning." - dominic toretto

 

[LeafsNation75]

Jets weren't bad enough to deliberately tank even if they wanted to. Leafs filled their roster with 3rd/4th line guys and AHLers. All their top guns were "hurt". They were doing a full blown rebuild. I don't know why that's a bad thing in your mind. You seem to have some sort of a stigma against bad teams being super bad on purpose to draft high.

And Helle is still rocking great numbers even with his slight regression. Him and Wheeler have been the reason why your team has been this good so far this season. Wheeler I believe is as good as his numbers show and he is in his prime. Helle was playing out of his mind good and I don't think he's anywhere near as good as his numbers were.

Just be happy your team is doing good and don't try to discredit teams for doing a proper rebuild. There have been multiple teams in recent times who have tanked on purpose and we know where they're all currently sitting. Leafs did the tank properly and have been patient with their players and developed a farm system that is the best in the AHL atm. Jets have done likewise except they were never TRYING TO BE BAD, they were underachievers playing in a tough division.

You can also say that the Jets were also very lucky jumping up from 6th overall to the 2nd overall pick and able to select Laine.

 

[Peggy]

You can also say that the Jets were also very lucky jumping up from 6th overall to the 2nd overall pick and able to select Laine.

the jets thank the hockey gods for laine

 

[cneely]

Jets weren't bad enough to deliberately tank even if they wanted to. Leafs filled their roster with 3rd/4th line guys and AHLers. All their top guns were "hurt". They were doing a full blown rebuild. I don't know why that's a bad thing in your mind. You seem to have some sort of a stigma against bad teams being super bad on purpose to draft high.

The Jets intentionally got much younger. Guys like Ladd, Stafford, Thorburn, Stuart, Frolik, Slater, Halischuk... were all replaced with kids.

And Helle is still rocking great numbers even with his slight regression. Him and Wheeler have been the reason why your team has been this good so far this season. Wheeler I believe is as good as his numbers show and he is in his prime. Helle was playing out of his mind good and I don't think he's anywhere near as good as his numbers were.

You should look up Helle's career numbers in any league. Last year was an outlier for him.

 

[cneely]

You can also say that the Jets were also very lucky jumping up from 6th overall to the 2nd overall pick and able to select Laine.

This is very true.

 

[LeafsNation75]

the jets thank the hockey gods for laine

No different than the Leafs thanking the Hockey Gods for Auston Matthews.

 

[Peggy]

No different than the Leafs thanking the Hockey Gods for Auston Matthews.

not at all. the leafs got the draft they were expected to get lol

the jets jumped from 8th to 2nd

the jets were actually rewarded for winning the last stretch of the season

 

[ediger]

Winnipeg still needs to win a playoff game before they can win a series.

Yes the Leafs still lost to Washington in the 1st round last year however that series ended 4-2, where as the Jets 2.0 1st round series against Anaheim in 2014 was a 4-0 sweep for the Ducks.

This is one of the dumbest narratives that pops up on these boards. What do past playoff failures have to do with the current season? Absolutely nothing.

 

[nobody]

Laine, Connor, Ehlers, Morrissey, Trouba, Scheifele, Hellebuyck, Lowry, Copp, Armia, Tanev, Kulikov, Roslovic, were all either not on the team 3 years ago, or were incredibly young. Scheifele being the oldest at 22. That's literally half the team.

These are core guys? Because I said half your core. Not half your team. Unless you have comprehension issues.

Jets had Buff, Wheeler, Little, Chef, Perrault, Trouba, Myers all on the team in the 2014-15 season. Oh and they made the playoffs that year FYI. And the following few seasons they had only added to that roster. Unless you want to tell me that Andrew Ladd was such a MASSIVE loss to the team that it knocked them down to two bottom 10 finishes, I would safely assume that the Jets were a good team that were going through growing pains and underachieved their potential largely due to poor goaltending and defensive woes (+Injuries).

 

[cneely]

not at all. the leafs got the draft they were expected to get lol

the jes jumped from 8th to 2nd

But if a lower team than the Jets won the lottery, the Leafs would have lost out on Matthews. They still would have picked Laine though. Not a bad consolation prize.

 

[cneely]

These are core guys? Because I said half your core. Not half your team. Unless you have comprehension issues.

Jets had Buff, Wheeler, Little, Chef, Perrault, Trouba, Myers all on the team in the 2014-15 season. Oh and they made the playoffs that year FYI. And the following few seasons they had only added to that roster. Unless you want to tell me that Andrew Ladd was such a MASSIVE loss to the team that it knocked them down to two bottom 10 finishes, I would safely assume that the Jets were a good team that were going through growing pains and underachieved their potential largely due to poor goaltending and defensive woes (+Injuries).

Certainly a lot of guys on that list (Scheifele, Trouba, Lowry, Ehlers, Laine, Morrissey, Hellebuyck) are core guys, along with Wheeler and Buff. I would argue Wheeler and Buff (and maybe Little) are the only core guys on the Jets who were in their prime contributors in '14 / 15

 

[nobody]

The Jets intentionally got much younger. Guys like Ladd, Stafford, Thorburn, Stuart, Frolik, Slater, Halischuk... were all replaced with kids.



You should look up Helle's career numbers in any league. Last year was an outlier for him.

And I'm not denying that last year was an outlier. I'm just saying that he was playing way above his head for a long stretch this year even with how fantastic he is. I expect him to be a .922-.926 save % guy. Not the .935%+ he was rocking for a while. Unless the Jets defence has magically improved that drastically.

 

[IPS]

But if a lower team than the Jets won the lottery, the Leafs would have lost out on Matthews. They still would have picked Laine though. Not a bad consolation prize.

Not really. Leafs wouldn't have even sniffed the playoffs last year with Laine instead of Matthews. Replacing a 1C with a one dimensional PP specialist who's horrific defensively would have put them down a lot of spots in the standings.

 

[Peggy]

But if a lower team than the Jets won the lottery, the Leafs would have lost out on Matthews. They still would have picked Laine though. Not a bad consolation prize.

a lower team?
the leafs were in last that season were they not? weren't they projected to score first over all?

as I said in my edit
the jets wouldn't have gotten that 2nd pick if they didn't go on that winning streak at the end of the season
the jets ended up being rewarded for winning

jumping from 8th to 2nd is bro the same from expecting be picked 1st to dropping to 2nd
especially when one team tried to lose to get that pick
teama deserve the 1st pick for trying to lose
that's why nothing Edmonton has done has been impressive. any success is based off them losing

 

[cneely]

And I'm not denying that last year was an outlier. I'm just saying that he was playing way above his head for a long stretch this year even with how fantastic he is. I expect him to be a .922-.926 save % guy. Not the .935%+ he was rocking for a while. Unless the Jets defence has magically improved that drastically.

I agree, but he's "regressed" to the point where he's a .925 guy on the year, and the Jets are still winning.

I don't think the Jets have magically improved, but being healthy and replacing Stuart with Kulikov (plus Trouba and Morrissey still improving), the personnel is better than last year for sure. They don't have to plug in AHL players like Postma, Chariot, Strait, Melichori, Nogier, etc... like they had to last year.

 

[cneely]

a lower team?
the leafs were in last that season were they not? weren't they projected to score first over all?

Yes, but if one of the bottom 4 teams had won the lottery the Leafs would have picked second.

 

[nobody]

Certainly a lot of guys on that list (Scheifele, Trouba, Lowry, Ehlers, Laine, Morrissey, Hellebuyck) are core guys, along with Wheeler and Buff. I would argue Wheeler and Buff (and maybe Little) are the only core guys on the Jets who were in their prime contributors in '14 / 15

Again, I never said the core guys were in their prime 3/4 years ago. I said that half your core has been in place for a while. Which apparently makes me clueless to a few posters here. It's funny how defensive some people get.

Leafs "core" includes Rielly and Kadri from the old regime. Marner, Willie, Matthews, Andersen, Dermott, Lilly (hopefully), Brown, Hyman, etc. didn't make the team until last season. We didn't have a core of great players to carry the team or atleast grow with the team like the Jets did. We literally unloaded the old core we had and that was done so we can rebuild. Leafs tanking was a necessity. Us getting Marner and 4 and Matthews at 1 was something to team did actively to achieve. I don't see how that's a negative in any way. The peggy poster claimed that the Jets didn't intentionally tank to get to where they are which is a "no shit" statement because they never had a team that bad in personnel to ever tank. The only reason you guys got Laine from 6 was because you won the lottery. Which again, isn't a bad thing.