ATD Chat Thread XX

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"You're a boring old man"
Jun 18, 2013
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Oblivion Express
And for the TL;DR crowd:

Kucherov if the season ended today:

7 year VsX >100 meaning he joins Bathgate, Rocket, Lindsay, Lafluer, Hull, Jagr, Howe as the only wingers to reach that pedestal.

2 time Art Ross w/both wins coming against a very talented/deep field.

5 time AS

And if you re-did the Top-40 playoff performers list as of today, he'd not only breeze onto the list, he'd almost surely place inside the top 25 if you're comparing his record against players in that range from the previous version of the project.

Playoff peak a distant 3rd for Bathgate?

After 12 years in NY (where his all-time 7-year vs.x in assists is 2nd to only Howe among wingers), he gets traded to T.O., immediately ends the season with 15 assists in 15 games, leads the Leafs in playoff shots, 2nd in goals to Keon, including two of the four game-winning goals in the Stanley Cup Finals!

Then he goes to Detroit and is the NHL playoff goal leader with 6 on a Finals run against the dynasty Habs, all 6 on the pp incidently.

Two incredible Stanley Cup playoffs after languishing his elite skills so long for an inept Rags organization.


Yes, a distant 3rd.

Neither of those are incredible runs in an all time sense. Unless your standard is much, much lower than mine.

In Toronto 4 players scored more than Andy in 63-64, including Don McKenney and George Armstrong. He was a -4 (team worst) as 1 of just 3 players to be in the negative for those champion Leafs.

And with Detroit, yes the 6 goals did tie Ullman for the playoff lead, but all 6 of Bathgate's goals came on the PP. Ullman just 1, who also had a team leading 15 points. Bathgate was just 5th on his own team w/9.

Those aren't bad runs. And they certainly aren't incredible. People will vary on where those 2 runs fall, but if you pit them against the 2 best of Kuch and Kane (and both have more than 2 strong playoff jaunts), you should end up at....."yeah, a distant 3rd."
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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The last real significant season on Kane's resume is aged 30. That's just my opinion.

To be clear, I am not saying this changes the Kucherov/Kane comparison in any way, but calling Kane's 3rd Team AS/8th in league scoring season insignificant when trying to evaluate a player's all time worth is ridiculous.

That season would be the 7th or 8th best season of Kucherov's career depending on how you want to compare it to 2022 when Kucherov was injured but a much better per game player than Kane. Either way, clearly part of the 10 year prime that has been the general standard here for modern players.
 
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Leaf Lander

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Is there any other notable players who's lives were cut short while there career was still going?

Scotty Davidson, Hobey Baker, Bill Barilko, Pelle Lindbergh , Hamby shore, Joe hall, Murray Balfour, Terry Sawchuk, Svedberg Lennart, Kharlamov, Valeri, Steve Chiasson, Dan Snyder, Pavel Demitra

Ace Bailey injury
 
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rmartin65

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Apr 7, 2011
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Is there any other notable players who's lives were cut short while there career was still going?

Scotty Davidson, Hobey Baker, Bill Barilko, Pelle Lindbergh , Hamby shore, Joe hall, Murray Balfour, Terry Sawchuk, Svedberg Lennart, Kharlamov, Valeri, Steve Chiasson, Dan Snyder, Pavel Demitra

Ace Bailey injury
There were a couple guys in the early days-

Fred Higginbotham was a great cover point during the 1890s, died at 28 due to a horse riding accident.

Frank McGee's brother, Jim McGee, also died young (24) due to a horse riding accident.

Archie Hooper is a big one- died at 23 in 1904 after playing 26 games for Montreal HC (the Little Men of Iron) over 3 seasons. He led the CAHL in scoring in 1902 and was 8th in the league in 1903. If he doesn't pass here (and he joins the Wanderers), there is a pretty good chance he's remembered as one of the greater players of his time.

Owen 'Bud' McCourt died aged 22 in 1907. Several players from that game were charged, but not convicted. Pretty good player in the FAHL.

Hod Stuart famously died in a diving accident at 28 years old in 1907. Almost certainly the best d-man (cover point, though he played point and rover as well) of his time.

Edgar Dey died aged 28 in 1912. He bounced around a bit, but I believe he was the second leading scorer of the 1904 FAHL season, and was a strong player in the Manitoba league and WPHL. Also played for the 1909 ECHA champion Ottawa HC team.
 
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VanIslander

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Laviolette just got his 800th career win in the NHL regular season, the 4th fastest NHL coach to ever do so, his Rags with a league-leading 100 points.
 
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VanIslander

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I loathe this sudden, ubiquitous "megacloud". :( ... A kiwi company blocking this Canadian in S.Korea from watching American and Aussie shows.
 

VanIslander

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Because, at its heart, this is not a game but an exercise in hockey history (we fought for years to get this moved to a History subboard after it had been put under Fantasy.

"What if" counterfactual reasoning is a tool of the academic discipline of History.

Our ATD bios and discussion provide insight.

The next contributions we could make is in playoff analysis. Next week is April. We're sure to discuss player playoff experience/success soon!
 

tinyzombies

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Because, at its heart, this is not a game but an exercise in hockey history (we fought for years to get this moved to a History subboard after it had been put under Fantasy.

"What if" counterfactual reasoning is a tool of the academic discipline of History.

Our ATD bios and discussion provide insight.

The next contributions we could make is in playoff analysis. Next week is April. We're sure to discuss player playoff experience/success soon!
How does that take away from the historical aspect? You still have to judge the weight of what you are trading. It's ALSO a game, no? Of course, it has to be historically accurate, I appreciate that and agree. That's the whole point- to get a feel for the worth of these players across generations.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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From what I have seen, you have to be very careful with trades or one bad one can end up breaking the whole draft.

So then you need a panel of knowledgeable and draft-experienced people to manage trades and it takes more time - for both them and the draft - and ends up being more trouble than it is worth.
 

VanIslander

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Trading players instead of trading picks is an interesting poll option for a futute draft.

Monday is April. We're almost set to move on.
 

Habsfan18

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Pretty incredible to see the comeback in real time

His 96 assists ties Thornton 06 for most since Oates' 97 in 1993.

Wasn’t he like 21 points behind Kucherov at some point? Incredible. He may not do it, but I’m rooting for him. 6 Art Ross trophies at 27 years old would be absurd.
 

VanIslander

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. 6 Art Ross trophies at 27 years old would be absurd.
Absurd would be having 7 by age 26 and 8 Hart trophies by that age.

McD has 5 & 2, playing for the same team. He is Robin to Batman to us who remember The Great One.

Compare McD to Crosby. That's his tier.

Shy of absurd.imo.

Absurd has been aptly hollered for Hasek, Gretzky, Orr, .... Datsyukian moves, a rookie OV, Yzerman on one leg, .... not often...

But if 20 consecutive years of 1st or 2nd team NHL all stars for a physical (hence injury prone?) right winger is "absurd", then yeah.
 

tinyzombies

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Absurd would be having 7 by age 26 and 8 Hart trophies by that age.

McD has 5 & 2, playing for the same team. He is Robin to Batman to us who remember The Great One.

Compare McD to Crosby. That's his tier.

Shy of absurd.imo.

Absurd has been aptly hollered for Hasek, Gretzky, Orr, .... Datsyukian moves, a rookie OV, Yzerman on one leg, .... not often...

But if 20 consecutive years of 1st or 2nd team NHL all stars for a physical (hence injury prone?) right winger is "absurd", then yeah.
McDavid would score 300 points riding shotgun to Semenko. Not since Mario have we seen this. I only put Mario in his category. We aren't talking career value anymore, this is the real world. They had midgets with tea bags strapped to their shins then. I know because I was one of them. Two guys on each team could shoot over 80 mph.

Going the other direction, Mario would absolutely destroy this league. No clutch and grab, can't touch him at the net... get him lifting weights... give him a fancy stick and skates... destroy.

I don't put anyone in a class with those two. Nobody. Not Gretz, not Orr, not Howe.
 
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BraveCanadian

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McDavid would score 300 points riding shotgun to Semenko. Not since Mario have we seen this. I only put Mario in his category. We aren't talking career value anymore, this is the real world. They had midgets with tea bags strapped to their shins then. I know because I was one of them. Two guys on each team could shoot over 80 mph.

Going the other direction, Mario would absolutely destroy this league. No clutch and grab, can't touch him at the net... get him lifting weights... give him a fancy stick and skates... destroy.

I don't put anyone in a class with those two. Nobody. Not Gretz, not Orr, not Howe.

I always find it interesting that so many people feel the NHL got good at precisely the moment Lemieux entered his prime. It is an argument that is easy to shoot full of holes in a bunch of ways, but people keep trying it for some reason.
 

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