ATD Chat Thread XX

[Habsfan18]

I'm currently working on a very long book on the NHL's First Expansion Era (1924-1942). It's a massive undertaking and an oral history on the teams, players, and big stories from year-to-year in the league. I've accumulated hundreds of interviews with players and families of players from this era, and have acquired tons of photographs and artifacts that will be used in the book.

If anyone is interested in helping on certain topics, they are welcome to reach out.

Super pumped to hear that this is still in the works. You know I’ll be pre-ordering my copy as soon as possible.

 

[tinyzombies]

I'm currently working on a very long book on the NHL's First Expansion Era (1924-1942). It's a massive undertaking and an oral history on the teams, players, and big stories from year-to-year in the league. I've accumulated hundreds of interviews with players and families of players from this era, and have acquired tons of photographs and artifacts that will be used in the book.

If anyone is interested in helping on certain topics, they are welcome to reach out.

Ask and you shall receive. Looking forward to that.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm currently working on a very long book on the NHL's First Expansion Era (1924-1942). It's a massive undertaking and an oral history on the teams, players, and big stories from year-to-year in the league. I've accumulated hundreds of interviews with players and families of players from this era, and have acquired tons of photographs and artifacts that will be used in the book.

If anyone is interested in helping on certain topics, they are welcome to reach out.

Eagerly look forward to reading this.

 

[Habsfan18]

Eagerly look forward to reading this.

It really is a poorly covered era, book wise. So a book project like this is obviously much needed and should be welcomed with open arms.

Do you have a potential publisher for this yet @nabby12 or is it still too early for that?

 

[seventieslord]

Super pumped to hear that this is still in the works. You know I’ll be pre-ordering my copy as soon as possible.

It's a very under-covered era.

....did we seriously just both say the same thing at the same time???

About 15 years ago i bought 20+ history books from 70slord's long list of 100ish books he posted on HfBoards for sale. I read them all and used most in pick announcements or draft discussion... except for the Bucyk bio... i saved that, waiting waiting waiting to draft him and unleash the knowledge! ... but he always went earlier than i felt comfortable drafting him in the ATDs! ... in the end, when i moved off Korea's largest island of Jeju (their Hawaii, with palm trees, dormant volcano and wonderful beaches) i donated all 50+ of my hockey history books to a local library. The only book that wasn't given away was The Red Machine, the Soviet hockey treasure that was hidden for months under the driver's seat of my Korando jeep from a beach jaunt.

METRO ICE, the book about NY area pro teams at all levels of competition, with its deep dive far back into history, thorough coverage, quotes, awesome pics, images from programs, newspapers, magazines, etc ... was the greatest pleasure to read! Though the writings of Tarasov and Dryden stick in your head.

If anyone goes to Korea, it's worth finding out where that library is, so they can go find the paperback copy of Road To Olympus that you left behind!

 

[nabby12]

It really is a poorly covered era, book wise. So a book project like this is obviously much needed and should be welcomed with open arms.

Do you have a potential publisher for this yet @nabby12 or is it still too early for that?

I do have a Manitoba-based publisher that's in - But we're actually working to get the National Hockey League involved as well.

Like I said, this is a massive undertaking and the most research that I have and will ever put into a book. So hopefully it gets in front of as big of an audience as possible!

It would be very cool if some of HF's historians/ATDers want to help and get their name on the project, as it would potentially be the most impressive thing that HOH has ever accomplished.

 

[VanIslander]

I have often thought i have a history book or two in me.

I can write but my tech skills are minimal and with extreme prejudice. A stats & tech guy could be an ideal co-author pour moi.

 

[VanIslander]

@Hawkey Town 18

One more Mount Rushmore needed. .

The Great **** on the wrong team, the guy you respected most on a team you loathed.

The Great **** Mount Rushmore: Bourque, Yzerman, Niedermayer, Kane.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

@Hawkey Town 18

One more Mount Rushmore needed. .

The Great **** on the wrong team, the guy you respected most on a team you loathed.

The Great **** Mount Rushmore: Bourque, Yzerman, Niedermayer, Kane.

Good one. Let’s see, I think I’d have to say the teams I loathed the most were:

- 80s/90s/00s Wings: I’ll go with two guys to cover that longer time span: Yzerman and Lidstrom.

- 80s/90s Blues: Brett Hull

- 00s/10s Canucks: I definitely loathed them, but a specific player doesn't jump out at me. I guess I'd pick Kesler from that team, I'm not sure I "respected" him, but I would've been a big fan if he were on my team (I sure loved that Domi fight though)

 

[BenchBrawl]

ATD is tough to answer since the definition given is open-ended. I'll answer according to the players I feel most associated with:
Tony Amonte
Doug Harvey
Georges Boucher
Joe Hall

HMs: Bryan Trottier, Frank Fredrickson, Mike Modano, Eddie Gerard, Sergei Kapustin, Jimmy Thomson, Frank Brimsek, Busher Jackson, Jeremy Roenick and more recently, Bobby Hull.

I suspect the player I had the most times is Mike Modano.

Childhood
Patrick Roy
Stéphane Richer
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr

Modern
Alex Kovalev
Sheldon Souray
Carey Price
Sidney Crosby

 

[VanIslander]

ATD is tough to answer since the definition given is open-ended. I'll answer according to the players I feel most associated with:
....
Georges Boucher
.. ..
HMs: ... Eddie Gerard, Sergei Kapustin, ....

Childhood
Patrick Roy
....

Modern
... go **** ********!

Gerard, Roy... on those two we always will agree. Neither has EVER been drafted high enough!

 

[BenchBrawl]

Gerard, Roy... on those two we always will agree. Neither has EVER been drafted high enough!

Modern
... go **** ********!

What is your problem with my moderns?

 

[VanIslander]

I personally don't like them.
Everything personal.
Nothing talent related.

If i ever draft a top line of Bobby Hull - Sidney Crosby - Mark Recchi

You know my account has been hacked!

(I don't recall the others that got your nose out of joint, but i'm sure they were worthy of panning to a degree.)

 

[BenchBrawl]

I personally don't like them.
Everything personal.
Nothing talent related.

If i ever draft a top line of Bobby Hull - Sidney Crosby - Mark Recchi

You know my account has been hacked!

lol ok

 

[VanIslander]

Lol... Crosby i wouldn't play pick-up hockey for my soul versus the devil over Roy, Hasek and twelve skaters.

So, that said, the odds of Crosby going 15th overall or later is next to none.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Sounds like whoever drafted Gerard this year made a GREAT pick

 

[VanIslander]

Make that 14...

 

[nabby12]

While we're talking about hockey writing.. I know a lot of you here already subscribe. But I run a weekly hockey history newsletter that goes right to your email, if anyone wants to check it out that hasn't yet.

Here's the latest story that I just posted on Frank "Ulcers" McCool:
A Look At Frank "Ulcers" McCool
(I know he's an undrafted, but I think we're safe here. Although he was quite the one-hit wonder!)

 

[Habsfan18]

ATD is tough to answer since the definition given is open-ended. I'll answer according to the players I feel most associated with:
Tony Amonte
Doug Harvey
Georges Boucher
Joe Hall

HMs: Bryan Trottier, Frank Fredrickson, Mike Modano, Eddie Gerard, Sergei Kapustin, Jimmy Thomson, Frank Brimsek, Busher Jackson, Jeremy Roenick and more recently, Bobby Hull.

I suspect the player I had the most times is Mike Modano.

Childhood
Patrick Roy
Stéphane Richer
Mario Lemieux
Jaromir Jagr

Modern
Alex Kovalev
Sheldon Souray
Carey Price
Sidney Crosby

Man, Alex Kovalev in Montreal was pure magic. There still hasn’t been a player that makes you get up off your ass every time he touches the puck. Maybe PK Subban at times during his first few seasons. But Kovalev and the fans in Montreal just had a special connection, and at the risk of possibly exaggerating here, he might be second (in terms of forwards) only to Guy Lafleur since the 70’s in terms of fan admiration and personal support. He just got us, and the market. And boy, was he ever worth the price of admission. It was an honour to watch him play during those years. It was just a confident feeling every single time he was on the ice that something was about to happen.

And speaking of a confident feeling…Sheldon Souray, and particularly that one season where it felt as if every PP opportunity was a sure goal. That bomb from the point absolutely terrorized goaltenders. It felt like legitimate shades of a prime Al MacInnis. And he was an intimidating presence, that’s for sure.

Man, even though they weren’t able to break through and win one for Montreal, I’ll forever have a special place in my heart for those Habs teams.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Man, Alex Kovalev in Montreal was pure magic. There still hasn’t been a player that makes you get up off your ass every time he touches the puck. Maybe PK Subban at times during his first few seasons. But Kovalev and the fans in Montreal just had a special connection, and at the risk of possibly exaggerating here, he might be second (in terms of forwards) only to Guy Lafleur since the 70’s in terms of fan admiration and personal support. He just got us, and the market. And boy, was he ever worth the price of admission. It was an honour to watch him play during those years. It was just a confident feeling every single time he was on the ice that something was about to happen.

And speaking of a confident feeling…Sheldon Souray, and particularly that one season where it felt as if every PP opportunity was a sure goal. That bomb from the point absolutely terrorized goaltenders. It felt like legitimate shades of a prime Al MacInnis. And he was an intimidating presence, that’s for sure.

Man, even though they weren’t able to break through and win one for Montreal, I’ll forever have a special place in my heart for those Habs teams.

Agreed.

Loved those teams more than any since.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Everyone knows the "Mount Rushmore" of hockey is: Gretzky, Orr, Howe Lemieux. What are your personal Mount Rushmores for the following:

1. ATD Mount Rushmore - players you've drafted a lot and/or uncovered a lot of research on and/or seem to be great ATD value

2. Childhood Mount Rushmore - your favorite players when you were a kid

3. Modern Day Mount Rushmore - your favorite players from the last 15 years


Here are mine in no particular order:

ATD Mount Rushmore
- Red Kelly (always seems to be good value and he was my 1st pick on my Championship Team, I also drafted him another time and made the Conf Finals)
- Lionel Conacher (probably the player I've drafted the most, I like the bio I did on him, he's usually good value getting drafted at the end of a tier)
- Patrick Elias (usually good value and easy to fit in a lineup, I know I've drafted him and I'm pretty sure it was more than once)
- Mario Lemieux (8th!!!)


Childhood Mount Rushmore
- Denis Savard
- Jeremey Roenick
- Joe Sakic
- Peter Forsberg


Modern Day Mount Rushmore
- Duncan Keith
- Jonathan Toews
- Patrick Kane
- Nathan MacKinnon (had to pick one non-Hawk)

ATD Mount Rushmore:

1. Pete Green - coach

-The most important research I've ever done.

Consider what I did for his legacy with the research from a few years back. He joins Toe Blake and Scotty Bowman, coaches that led multiple dynasties from 2 different time periods. He's easily the most dominant coach pre-consolidation, of an era era which spans 3+ decades. Nobody can touch his record (winning %) and Cup victories.

The contemporary praise for his abilities both as a evaluator/developer of talent, and tactician are many, especially for that time period where coaches duties were often muddied by lack of information. He was fondly remembered by many all time greats such as Cyclone Taylor (Green was responsible for putting Taylor on the blue line to take advantage of his speed and open ice before the forward pass was allowed). Sprague Cleghorn spoke highly of him. Tommy Gorman, Lester Patrick, etc.

He created a defensive system that the league literally adjusted rules to ban. That trap style was copied by many teams in the years to follow and ultimately developed further by other luminaries.

IF we're going to take "best of an era" seriously then Green should be a top 5 coach ever. Certainly top 10 for even the skeptics. Having spent an incredible amount of time researching him, IMHO, there is nobody beyond Blake, Bowman and maybe Tarasov, who would rank ahead of him 1v1, taking all factors into consideration.

I am in the process of working with the Hockey Hall of Fame to have his legacy looked into further because he absolutely needs to be in the Hall for his massive contributions to the game. I'm going to be like Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption when it comes to his cause. I'll keep pushing on this front until the end of time.

2. Doug Harvey

-Finally able to draft him this year. Incredibly easy to start a franchise around. @BenchBrawl and I spoke about if AI could figure out a full proof plan to win the ATD regularly, Harvey would be the most logical meta-choice. I think he's the most important cog to the greatest dynasty of all time (mid to late 50's Habs).

3. Russell Bowie

-I think this is the 3rd year I've had him. In the previous drafts, even as recently as last year, his draft position has been far, far too low, which conversely has allowed teams to get incredible value, even if that value didn't pay off come voting time. Bowie's offensive brilliance both in peak/longevity is legendary, no matter which era you put him up against. @rmartin65 wonderful deep dive showed just how dominant he was vs peers and gave us a better understanding of his overall game/reputation beyond just scoring goals.

4. Jack Walker

-I think he's still undervalued, even after the pre-merger project because his offensive doesn't stack up well vs a lot of his peers of the era, but 2 things do stand out.

One, his defensive reputation was legendary. Only Frank Nighbor (who learned his trade via Walker's style) can claim a higher spot in that regard and considering we're talking about 30+ years of hockey, I'd say the legacy is a major calling card that doesn't get enough pomp vs those who post better offensive totals receive.

Two, he can really play anywhere on the F line and that makes him incredibly valuable as a bottom 6 F.

And I'll add a third reasons. He stepped up numerous times in the playoffs and out produced his regular season offensive production multiple times. Missed on him by 1 pick in this draft.


Childhood MR:

1. Mario Lemieux

-Saw him live for the first time, the day after Christmas with my dad, uncle and 2 cousins, Dec 26, 1991. All he did was drop 7 points (2nd highest single game total by him) in a 12-1 Penguin win vs the Maple Leafs.

I don't really remember vivid details, but I do remember seeing 66 skating faster than most others on the ice, players who were much smaller. He looks so incredibly effortless thinking back. As time went on, and I grew older, there is no doubt in my mind that Mario was the most naturally (physically) gifted hockey player I've ever seen. The only player who rivaled Gretzky as an offensive mega force. What he did after coming back from cancer treatment (including radiation) should be made into a movie. His presence is the only reason hockey survived in Pittsburgh (1980's) and then continued to survive into the Crosby era.

2. Joe Sakic

-Favorite non-Penguin growing up. Burnaby Joe was a name I knew, even before he was in Colorado and I remember collecting many of his trading cards in the 90's.

3. Peter Forsberg

-Right up there with Sakic. He was a wrecking ball, which was a different look vs Joe, and I wasn't a young kid when he soared to fame but his name is one that I always held in high regard due to his playing style.

4. Ronnie Francis

-Always liked him more than Jagr who seemed like a puck hog to me (not that he didn't often to great things by being such a hog). Was more important on the back to back title teams without question.


Modern Day MR:

1. Sidney Crosby

-As a young adult/grown up, he's without question my favorite player. Resume speaks for itself. He was unfairly thrust into mega stardom before he even stepped on NHL ice and has always handled himself with class in terms of the media and responsibilities off the ice. And after some early growing pains in terms of maturity on the ice, he morphed into an all time great captain and leader, with multiple Cups, multiple gold medals, etc, etc. The best all around hockey player of the last 2 decades and it's not particularly close IMO. Still going strong at age 36 and showing no signs of being anywhere near done.

2. Cale Makar

-Have really enjoyed watching him when I can. The potential ceiling for him all time is that of a top 10 blue liner ever. So young and already has a cabinet rapidly filling with hardware. His offensive instincts, skating, shot, vision, etc, etc stood out early, and more recently, figuring out how to defend with sound positioning and taking care of passing lanes/angles. Consider at 25 he's already got a Calder, Norris, Smythe, 3 AS nods (he'll be a postseason AS and 4th time Norris finalist again this year).

3. Patrice Bergeron

-Just retired and more often than not shut Crosby down head to head (though he, Sid and Marchand were absolutely dominant on a line together in the World Cup a # of years ago), he was as good as advertised. Just a brilliant hockey player, IQ through the roof. Elite in the dot. From 2009-10 until last year, he had FOURTEEN straight top 5 Selke finishes. All time record 6 wins, and 4 runner ups. Hated seeing him as I knew the going would be tough, but always enjoyed watching his brilliance.

4. Chris Kunitz

-Going way down the depth chart here and giving some love to a lesser known player, he was elevated by Crosby for years in terms of offensive prominence but this guy was a gamer. Nothing special in any one area but he did all the stuff you want out of a glue type player. Checked both ways, he could give you time on the kill, scored some absolutely mammoth goals (namely the double OT winner vs Ottawa in game 7 of the ECF in 2017, on a feed from Sid no less). Assisted on the Cup winning goal vs Nashville. 4 time Cup winner overall.

 

[VanIslander]

Bowie, Forsberg, Francis, Bergeron... indeed!

 

[nabby12]

One more post about the book I'm working on about the NHL's First Expansion Era (1924-1942):

I'm interested in publishing a Top 50 players list in the book of players from this time period. It doesn't have to be a full HOH project as I know one has been done recently on a similar time period, but if anyone wants to send in lists for the Top 50 players from 1924-1942, it would be appreciated.

 

[jigglysquishy]

One more post about the book I'm working on about the NHL's First Expansion Era (1924-1942):

I'm interested in publishing a Top 50 players list in the book of players from this time period. It doesn't have to be a full HOH project as I know one has been done recently on a similar time period, but if anyone wants to send in lists for the Top 50 players from 1924-1942, it would be appreciated.

You could do a panel style. Say, take 10 of our lists from that time period, and your final list is the aggregate list of the submitted lists. It's a mini-HOH style. And then you can include the panelist's lists too.

I'll send you a list and I'm sure you could get at least 10.

What are your parameters? Pro career couldn't start by 1924?

 

[nabby12]

You could do a panel style. Say, take 10 of our lists from that time period, and your final list is the aggregate list of the submitted lists. It's a mini-HOH style. And then you can include the panelist's lists too.

I'll send you a list and I'm sure you could get at least 10.

What are your parameters? Pro career couldn't start by 1924?

Yes, that would work great!

Parameters wise, as long as the prime of their career was in the 1924-1942 era, that's good enough as these players who played at any point in this era will be featured throughout the book.

Morenz for example, started in 1923 with Montreal, and we wouldn't want to exclude him because he started a year early.