ATD 2018 Lineup Advice Thread

[tinyzombies]

If you don't find a better option for the second PK-unit I would suggest using Starshinov there. Starshinov was along with Firsov the greatest Soviet penalty killer (among forwards) in the second half of the 60's. In the one game he played at the 1972 Summit Series Starshinov also showed that he was very capable of killing penalties against the best the NHL had to offer. In that game (game 2) Starshinov led all Soviet forwards in shorthanded ice time despite being clearly out of his prime as a player. Here is the post specifically about Starshinov from the Soviet PK study. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140416979/

His ATD bio says he shoots left, but from the video, he clearly shoots right. Which is great, I needed a right handed centerman.

The sentence, "Intercepted the puck from Mikita..." is music to my ears. He also beats Espo on the draw, but it's a 5-on-3 so they don't gain possession. At the end of it, he denies zone entry and causes an offsides letting the Russians get a badly needed change. Very nice.

 

[jarek]

His ATD bio says he shoots left, but from the video, he clearly shoots right. Which is great, I needed a right handed centerman.

The sentence, "Intercepted the puck from Mikita..." is music to my ears. He also beats Espo on the draw, but it's a 5-on-3 so they don't gain possession. At the end of it, he denies zone entry and causes an offsides letting the Russians get a badly needed change. Very nice.

I fixed it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Oh yes, Starshinov would look quite good on a 2nd PK unit here.

 

[tinyzombies]

What about my Holik/Madden - Finnigan line? Does that fly as a 4th line? Both Madden and Holik are C/LW and Holik is a righty and Madden a lefty.

I split the duties between Starshinov and Holik on PK2 cuz St. Louis has nice shorty numbers.

I have Madden/Finnigan as the forwards on PK1.

 

[Dreakmur]

What about my Holik/Madden - Finnigan line? Does that fly as a 4th line? Both Madden and Holik are C/LW.

I split the duties between Starshinov and Holik on PK2 cuz St. Louis has nice shorty numbers.

I have Madden/Finnigan as the forwards on PK1.

How much LW did Holik and Madden actually play? And how much success did each have there?

 

[tinyzombies]

How much LW did Holik and Madden actually play? And how much success did each have there?

Looks like the Devs actually employed Madden on LW with Holik at C against the Penguins and they shut down Lemieux/Jagr - and not even a shot in game one of the conference finals (see next post).

**

"Robert Holik, an 18-year-old left wing with the Czechoslovakia national hockey team, may have defected to the United States with the hope of joining the Minnesota North Stars of the N.H.L., according to a report yesterday in The Toronto Star. "

Looks like he played LW with the Whalers too and when he first came to the Devs.

Also, he would be playing strictly a LW checking role, not a second line power-vs-power situation.

''Wherever they want me to play, I'll play,'' said Madden, a center who was moved to left wing on Bobby Holik's line early in the game." But he did well: "It is not glamorous, but it works. Madden scored twice tonight to help the Devils end a two-game losing streak with a 4-0 victory over the Atlanta Thrashers before 10,014 at Continental Arena."

'He filled in like he had been playing left wing all his life,'' Devils Coach XXX said of Madden."

Holik got the puck through a crowd and threw a wrist shot at XXX. It bounced off the goaltender. This is where Madden entered the plot. He found some space in the slot, then had his helmet knocked loose by Thrashers defenseman XXX.
''Just a love tap on the back of the head to let me know he was there,'' a smiling Madden said.
But he got up, gathered the rebound of Holik's shot and flipped a backhand that XXX trapped with his glove...and, suddenly, XXX'S glove and the puck went into the net. The horn went off, late, and XXX and Madden got a big laugh after they went back to the bench. ''It makes sense that we should do well,'' XXX said of the line combination. Madden was told to play left wing. He fit right in. ''The thing that makes John Madden a good hockey player is his tenaciousness,'' XXX said. ''Maybe we'll be a checking line that chips in for a goal here and there,'' Madden said, straight-faced."

***
NY Post:

Madden is the latest player to skate left wing with Bobby Holik and xxx, a berth that offers opportunity, but comes with pressure to capitalize. He has displayed plenty of tenacity and smarts, and had his share of chances to score. He remained on that line last night as the Devils faced the Ducks at the Meadowlands.

“I would say I can play better. I’m getting a good opportunity with Holik and xxx, but I’d be really worried if I wasn’t getting chances. I have to take advantage of it.”

***
NY Post:
Moved up to the left side with Bobby Holik, Madden scored twice last night to lead the Devils to a 4-0 rout of the Thrashers at the Meadowlands. That pair was not an aberration, and he doesn’t care for anyone to think it is.
“I’ve got 13, and that leads the team. If that’s not being known as a goal-scorer, that’s trouble for everybody else,” Madden said.

“The last time I played [left wing], I scored four against Pittsburgh,” Madden said.

 

[tinyzombies]

Maybe it's Madden who has to get the lion's share of the LW time? However, Holik played LW with the Czech National Team and :

"Madden has been a center throughout his career, so naturally, the Devils are playing him on the wing. He has a reputation as a tough defensive player, and is hoping to show that he can score in the NHL, too."

Madden took the team lead with his 13th at 4:28 of the third. Holik stole the puck from xxx at center, and Madden raced off the bench to accept the 2-on-1 pass and rifle his second of the night past xxx.

***
But here is Madden (LW) -Holik (C) shutting down Mario in the playoffs:

Madden dogs Lemieux to distraction

If Lemieux fires the puck at Madden again, it will have been another frustrating night for the Pittsburgh Penguins' superstar in the Eastern Conference final.
Lemieux more or less admitted that's how he relieved his frustrations as time ran out in the Devils' 3-1 win in the series opener.
"That's the first I knew of it," Madden said with a straight face yesterday as the Devils returned to practice after a day off. "I haven't read the paper. I've been home with my family. My wife had me sequestered for a couple of days.
"But if that was the case, I don't know, I've had worse things done to me, so that doesn't bother me."
Given that his nickname is Mad Dog and he graduated to the National Hockey League from one of Toronto's tougher neighbourhoods, it is not surprising that not much bothers Madden. He is accustomed to doing the bothering.
Madden did his job so well against Lemieux that he will stay at left wing on Holik's line tonight instead of returning to his regular job as fourth-line centre.

"It's more that I want to keep the Madden and Holik line together," Devils head coach xxx said.

The Holik line did not allow Lemieux so much as a shot in the first game. But this time, there are suspicions that Penguins head coach xxx will put Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr on the same line in order to crank up the offensive pressure on the Penguins.
When it comes to frustrating Lemieux, Madden says success starts with keeping the puck away from the Penguins' owner/player.

There is also the question of Jagr's shoulder injury, which may have been aggravated late in Game 1 when Holik drove him into the boards. That, too, is dismissed by the Devils.

Madden: "Sometimes the best defence is going on the offence. Keep the puck in their zone, fore-check and have a sustained fore-check, make them play in their zone and get tired a bit."

 

[BenchBrawl]

Holik is not a good skater.Put him at C where he can intimidate weaker centers and win faceoffs.There's really no other reason to take him that I can think of.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What about my Holik/Madden - Finnigan line? Does that fly as a 4th line? Both Madden and Holik are C/LW and Holik is a righty and Madden a lefty.

I split the duties between Starshinov and Holik on PK2 cuz St. Louis has nice shorty numbers.

I have Madden/Finnigan as the forwards on PK1.

Holik wasnt a good PKer in real life (too slow and coaches never used him there). No need to use him there in the ATD when you have other guys who can do it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How much LW did Holik and Madden actually play? And how much success did each have there?

Madden played LW on Holik's line when the Devils wanted to stack their checking line, such as against the Lemieux/Jagr line in the 2001 playoffs. I think Madden is ok at 4th line LW here, but you have to expect he'll score (even) less than he did at C.

I think checkers have an easier time converting from C to W than scorers, but it is true that Madden only played LW in special circumstances.

 

[Dreakmur]

Madden played LW on Holik's line when the Devils wanted to stack their checking line, such as against the Lemieux/Jagr line in the 2001 playoffs. I think Madden is ok at 4th line LW here, but you have to expect he'll score (even) less than he did at C.

I think checkers have an easier time converting from C to W than scorers, but it is true that Madden only played LW in special circumstances.

For me, unless the guy had significant success in a position, he shouldn't play there in an ATD setting.

 

[tinyzombies]

Done and done. Thanks guys. That gives me two right-handed centers, one of them a nasty hombre and Starshinov no shrinking violet either. Balances out Beliveau (who would not back down from anyone and had that one year where he played dirty and wracked up PIMs to set his rep) and Perreault (who also backed down from no one - see the 1975 finals, but was clean).

 

[tinyzombies]

For me, unless the guy had significant success in a position, he shouldn't play there in an ATD setting.

But if he was used there to stack their checking line - and has chemistry with Holik shutting down who many consider was the best player ever AND Jagr, why would that not apply to the ATD? You HAVE to stack your checking line in the ATD. Maybe you are right, I don't know, just asking. I just stumbled onto this bounty by accident, along with Starshinov being a righty. That's just good luck.

Also at LW, Madden went head-to-head against Jagr at his peak in the conference finals and held him to zero shots and the Devs eliminated them. Of course, Stevens had a bit to do with that - but I have Pronger back there on LD. Holik-Pronger = Holik-Stevens.

 

[BenchBrawl]

nvm

 

[jarek]

Head Coach: Art Ross

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Bob Nevin
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Patrick Kane
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
LW - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
LD - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
G

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Pospíšil - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - Kapustin - MacKay - Mohns

PP extras: Nighbor, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: Krutov - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: MacKay, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns

NOTES:

Krutov, according to @Batis, took the faceoffs on the Krutov - Makarov PK unit in real life. He also apparently took faceoffs in Larionov's place at even strength as well.

MacKay's ability to play the point on the PP is largely based off his real life success at rover.

----------

So unless something really drastic happens with a player trade after the draft, that's what I'm probably gonna go with. I don't see any obvious improvements that can be made.

It was suggested to me to go with something like this for my top lines:

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin

I guess this would move the shut down line to my 2nd line, leaving the top line free for more offensive oriented shifts while still being able to play against just about any line because of Nighbor's presence. This may be a better use for Mickey MacKay as well.

Some thoughts please?

 

[Theokritos]

Wait, a RICH man's Petrov?

That, indeed, is what Anatoly Tarasov himself suggested. EDIT: See the reply by VMBM and my next post for clarification.

In Tarasov's 1974 book Путь к себе ("Path to the Self") there is some interesting hindsight-reasoning about the 1972 Summit Series and how Phil Esposito ("not particularly fast, but battlesome, feisty, with fine technical tools and excellent orientation; he's extremely clever") could be "neutralized". Tarasov sees two options, one of them is to make Esposito play a more defensive game (where he is "far from brilliant") with the Soviet centers Petrov and Maltsev forcing him "to run the extra hundreds of meters" and tiring him out. "But that might not be enough", Tarasov continues: "With the departure of Vyacheslav Starshinov from hockey we are lacking a center forward/halfback who combines a vast physical game, including the accurate execution of defensive tasks, with the ability to attack most pointedly. Petrov is perhaps the closest comparable to the Spartak forward, but he is missing lacking the mass and physical strenght to scare the opponent."

So even in 1974, after Petrov really hit his prime with the great season he had 1972-1973, Tarasov literally thought of him as "Starshinov light".

 

[VMBM]

That, indeed, is what Anatoly Tarasov himself suggested.



So even in 1974, after Petrov really hit his prime with the great season he had 1972-1973, Tarasov literally thought of him as "Starshinov light".

Well, maybe not as an overall player, but rather in a physical sense.

I think Petrov did have some superior qualities over Starshinov also, like passing, shooting and probably hockey sense, and in many Finnish sources he is certainly considered a very strong player too - sometimes even nasty.

 

[Theokritos]

Well, maybe not as an overall player, but rather in a physical sense.

True. It's just that the way Tarasov puts it ("combines a vast physical game, including the accurate execution of defensive tasks, with the ability to attack most pointedly... Petrov is perhaps the closest comparable to the Spartak forward, but he is lacking the mass and physical strength to scare the opponent") doesn't suggest he thought of Petrov as any better than Starshinov overall. But you're right to point out he doesn't necessarily say Starshinov was superior as an overall player either. I'm not convinced Starshinov was a "rich man's Petrov". At least for the time being (until more evidence surfaces), I think of them as (roughly) equals, with Starshinov having advantages in physical play (he was indeed 6-8 kg respectively 13-17 pounds heavier) and Petrov perhaps in other areas.

I think Petrov did have some superior qualities over Starshinov also, like passing, shooting and probably hockey sense

I'm not sure about any of these. You could be right about all of them, but what is your opinion based on? I know Petrov got praised for these qualities, but Starshinov receives similar praise in the quotes I could find during my research for the Twenty years of Soviet Hockey thread. The difficulty is of course that we have a lot more footage (full games) of prime Petrov than we have of prime Starshinov to review, confirm and specify those claims about the players.

and in many Finnish sources he is certainly considered a very strong player too - sometimes even nasty.

No doubt he was just that. It seems Starshinov played in a very similar way, but with more weight than Petrov so that he was even stronger/nastier.

 

[VMBM]

I'm not sure about any of these. You could be right about all of them, but what is your opinion based on? I know Petrov got praised for these qualities, but Starshinov receives similar praise in the quotes I could find during my research for the Twenty years of Soviet Hockey thread. The difficulty is of course that we have a lot more footage (full games) of prime Petrov than we have of prime Starshinov to review, confirm and specify those claims about the players.

*I could be wrooong, I could be riiight* heh heh

I base it on eye test (lots more of footage of Petrov, of course) and the little available (official) assist data that we have of Starshinov. How much did the fact that Starshinov played in an era when 2nd assists were not recorded plummeted his stats, I don't know, but I rank Petrov fairly highly as a playmaker. For example, was Starshinov the guy on his line who controlled/ran the PP? I've seen Petrov do that quite often (usually operating from the left circle).
As for shooting, I think it's given that Starshinov did not have the kind of rocket of a shot that Petrov had. I'm not sure which one had a better wrister, but Starshinov usually played nearer the net, and probably scored more from there; that was mainly Mikhailov's role on Petrov's line.

I could also add speed advantage for Petrov, but then again, it was not necessarily Petrov's forte either.

I enjoy reading your bios/quotes on Soviet players, but sometimes I get the feeling that "every player was great at everything", i.e. the quotes don't always seem to be very critical, although I can't specifically claim that there's something clearly dubious in Starshinov's or anyone else's case.

 

[Johnny Engine]

How would you set up my PK forwards?

I've got Armstrong and Holik who I like a lot, both wingers. I could split them up and stick them with any of Vladimir Shadrin (not exactly the PK horse for the Soviet teams as was thought, but he still proved himself to be very good at it), Fleming MacKell or Phil Watson (both second in shorthanded points over the span of their careers).

However, if I were to use Holik and Armstrong as a unit, do faceoffs make a big difference on an Imlach team, when he often sent his defensemen in to do the job? And does it make a difference that none of my defensemen have any record of doing that?

Thirdly, if I added a third pair of forwards to my PK group, which of Francis or Phillips would you rather see as the sixth guy?

 

[jarek]

Armstrong was not a big PK guy. I would prefer him on the 2nd unit.

Mackell - Holik
Shadrin - Armstrong

That seems best.

 

[jarek]

Head Coach: Art Ross

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Bob Nevin
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Patrick Kane
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
LW - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
LD - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
G

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Pospíšil - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - Kapustin - MacKay - Mohns

PP extras: Nighbor, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: Krutov - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: MacKay, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns

NOTES:

Krutov, according to @Batis, took the faceoffs on the Krutov - Makarov PK unit in real life. He also apparently took faceoffs in Larionov's place at even strength as well.

MacKay's ability to play the point on the PP is largely based off his real life success at rover.

----------

So unless something really drastic happens with a player trade after the draft, that's what I'm probably gonna go with. I don't see any obvious improvements that can be made.

It was suggested to me to go with something like this for my top lines:

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin

I guess this would move the shut down line to my 2nd line, leaving the top line free for more offensive oriented shifts while still being able to play against just about any line because of Nighbor's presence. This may be a better use for Mickey MacKay as well.

Anyone?

 

[Theokritos]

I enjoy reading your bios/quotes on Soviet players, but sometimes I get the feeling that "every player was great at everything", i.e. the quotes don't always seem to be very critical

The one source I use this probably applies to is the 1977 "Hockey handbook". I usually quote it at the beginning because it gives a general overview, but it's true you often get a "every player was great at everything" impression from it. Other than that, however, I don't think the sources I use (Tarasov etc) are generally uncritical. But perhaps the lack of a direct comparison with the NHL prior to 1972 clouded the judgment of my sources to a degree in the sense that it gave them a subpar frame of reference. For example, there is a 1972 quote from Aleksandr Gusev where he said: "I thought I had one of the hardest slapshots in the world. When I arrived in Montreal, I discovered that almost every Candadian's shot was at least as hard as mine." So from a Soviet pre-1972 point of view, someone like Gusev would be praised as one of the hardest shooters in the world when in reality he was "only" average or maybe above average by NHL standards.

 

[Iceman]

Anyone?

Kane should be on your top line yes, without a doubt.

 

[Namba 17]

It seems Starshinov played in a very similar way

Just no.
Watch games and you'll see, that they were pretty different players.