ATD 2018 Lineup Advice Thread

[Dreakmur]

Armstrong was not a big PK guy. I would prefer him on the 2nd unit.

Mackell - Holik
Shadrin - Armstrong

That seems best.

George Armstrong? I thought he and Pulford formed a dynamite PK unit... no?

 

[Namba 17]

The one source I use this probably applies to is the 1977 "Hockey handbook". I usually quote it at the beginning because it gives a general overview, but it's true you often get a "every player was great at everything" impression from it. Other than that, however, I don't think the sources I use (Tarasov etc) are generally uncritical.

The main problem with Soviets sources is that they are very poor compared to NA ones. It's very hard to understand what was this or that player's hockey style, his features, weaknesses etc. You may read almost the same phrases about every player and you need to find a specific words to discover what exactly player did on the rink.
And even then you may not find what you are looking for. For example - what was Belyay Bekyashev position? C? RW? LW? I couldn't find even this. And we are speaking about player, who managed to come close to some of Bobrov's records, had goalscoring finishes 1, 2, 2, 5, was the reason his team was competitive... All I found, that he was poor skater and that's it.

 

[jarek]

George Armstrong? I thought he and Pulford formed a dynamite PK unit... no?

I'm just using overpass' stats, which put Armstrong at I believe 39% usage. Although that doesn't capture the first decade of Armstrong's career. So I guess he does belong on the first unit over Holik.

 

[jarek]

Head Coach: Art Ross

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
Vic Hadfield - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
G

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Pospíšil - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - MacKay - Sologubov - Mohns

PP extras: Nighbor, Kapustin, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: Krutov - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: MacKay, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns, Sologubov
​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Frank Nighbor	14	0	6	20
Patrick Kane	14	5	0	19
Cy Denneny	12	5	0	17
Vladimir Krutov	14	2	1	17
Bob Nevin	12	0	4	16
Vaclav Nedomansky	12	4	0	16
Frank Fredrickson	12	3	0	15
Mickey MacKay	12	2	0	14
Sergei Kapustin	12	0	0	12
Jerry Toppazzini	8	0	3	11
Vic Hadfield	8	0	0	8
Don McKenney	8	0	0	8
	138	21	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Denneny will see limited ES minutes in defensive zone draws, in favour of Krutov

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

​

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Pierre Pilote	16	5	2	23
František Pospíšil	14	4	4	22
Rod Langway	16	0	5	21
Doug Mohns	16	3	0	19
Ted Green	15	0	3	18
Nikolai Sologubov	15	2	0	17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Alright then, that about sums up my lineup, mostly. I removed Kapustin from the PP in favour of putting Sologubov on the point and MacKay up front. Thoughts on that or anything else?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

George Armstrong? I thought he and Pulford formed a dynamite PK unit... no?

It was Keon and Pulford who led Toronto to have like as many SHGs as the rest of the league put together.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Frank Nighbor cannot play 6 out of 7 PK minutes, no one can.

I don't even know if 5 is realistic...When's the last time you saw a player consistently be on the ice for 1:25 of every PK? Especially a forward. Sure it may happen every once in a while when you get pinned down in your zone, but not regularly.

Unless you're trying to say that your team is going to take more penalties than average and Nighbor is going to start those PK's and often get scored on within the first 30 seconds or so? That I would buy.

 

[jarek]

Frank Nighbor cannot play 6 out of 7 PK minutes, no one can.

I don't even know if 5 is realistic...When's the last time you saw a player consistently be on the ice for 1:25 of every PK? Especially a forward. Sure it may happen every once in a while when you get pinned down in your zone, but not regularly.

Unless you're trying to say that your team is going to take more penalties than average and Nighbor is going to start those PK's and often get scored on within the first 30 seconds or so? That I would buy.

Nighbor played an extremely efficient style of game. I would expect him to be able to handle that much PK time.

Anyways, I have no issues bumping up Krutov's PK minutes if need be.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I think 4 of 7 PK minutes is the max a forward can play in the ATD.

 

[jarek]

Head Coach: Art Ross

Captain: Rod Langway
Assistant Captains: František Pospíšil, Bob Nevin

Cy Denneny - Frank Nighbor - Patrick Kane
Vladimir Krutov - Mickey MacKay - Bob Nevin
Sergei Kapustin - Frank Fredrickson - Václav Nedomanský
Vic Hadfield - Don McKenney - Jerry Toppazzini

Rod Langway - Pierre Pilote
František Pospíšil - Doug Mohns
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green

Ken Dryden
G

PP1: Denneny - Nedomanský - Kane - Pospíšil - Pilote
PP2: Krutov - Fredrickson - MacKay - Sologubov - Mohns

PP extras: Nighbor, Kapustin, McKenney

PK1: Nighbor - Nevin - Langway - Pospíšil
PK2: Krutov - Toppazzini - Pilote - Green

PK extras: MacKay, Fredrickson, McKenney, Mohns, Sologubov
​

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Forwards

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Frank Nighbor	16	0	4	20
Patrick Kane	14	5	0	19
Vladimir Krutov	14	2	3	19
Cy Denneny	12	5	0	17
Bob Nevin	12	0	4	16
Vaclav Nedomansky	12	4	0	16
Frank Fredrickson	11	3	0	14
Mickey MacKay	11	2	0	13
Sergei Kapustin	12	0	0	12
Jerry Toppazzini	8	0	3	11
Vic Hadfield	8	0	0	8
Don McKenney	8	0	0	8
	138	21	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Denneny will see limited ES minutes in defensive zone draws, in favour of Krutov

Estimated Minutes Per Game, Defensemen

Player	ES	PP	PK	Total
Pierre Pilote	16	5	2	23
František Pospíšil	14	4	4	22
Rod Langway	16	0	5	21
Doug Mohns	16	3	0	19
Ted Green	15	0	3	18
Nikolai Sologubov	15	2	0	17
	92	14	14

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

OK I fixed it. Nighbor -2 PK minutes, Krutov +2. Nighbor +2 ES minutes, Fredrickson and MacKay -1 each.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Can you guy give me some advice regarding my PP and PK line?

PP1
#14 Brendan Shanahan - #21 Peter Forsberg - #22 Mike Bossy
#65 Erik Karlsson - #32 Paul Reinhart

PP2
#10 John LeClair - #26 Peter Stastny - #9 Glenn Anderson
#4 Kevin Hatcher - #19 Larry Robinson

PK1
#23 Bob Gainey - #17 Walt Tkaczuk
#2 Derian Hatcher - #18 Serge Savard

PK2
X - #12 Brent Sutter
#19 Larry Robinson - #4 Kevin Hatcher

 

[Habsfan18]

That would be a lot of ice time for Robinson. He’s obviously good enough to do it, and one of the few that is probably capable of doing it in the ATD, but 1st pairing + 1st unit PP + 1st unit PK is a hell of a lot of ice time.

 

[Iceman]

Generally you probably wanna keep your star players off the PK, at least 1st unit if their value on the PP is much bigger.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Would it be better like this?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Can you guy give me some advice regarding my PP and PK line?

PP1
#14 Brendan Shanahan - #21 Peter Forsberg - #22 Mike Bossy
#65 Erik Karlsson - #19 Larry Robinson

PP2
#10 John LeClair - #26 Peter Stastny - #9 Glenn Anderson
#4 Kevin Hatcher - #18 Serge Savard

PK1
#23 Bob Gainey - #17 Walt Tkaczuk
#2 Derian Hatcher - #18 Serge Savard

PK2
#11 Brian Sutter - #12 Brent Sutter
#19 Larry Robinson - X

Biggest advice - draft a someone who can play the point of the PP. Karlsson is the only one on your team who I'd want to play 1st unit PP minutes, and he's not even that amazing at it (yet?)at the ATD level.

So something like player X - Karlsson, Robinson - Hatcher

Your PK looks like it's going to be great, but get Brian Sutter off there.

 

[Claude The Fraud]

Biggest advice - draft a someone who can play the point of the PP. Karlsson is the only one on your team who I'd want to play 1st unit PP minutes, and he's not even that amazing at it (yet?)at the ATD level.

So something like player X - Karlsson, Robinson - Hatcher

Your PK looks like it's going to be great, but get Brian Sutter off there.

Who would you put instead of Brian Sutter on the PK?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Who would you put instead of Brian Sutter on the PK?

Worst case, draft one and sit Brian Sutter.

 

[overpass]

Brian Sutter killed penalties for the last four years of his career, but not for the first few years. He may be the best option on your roster.

Serge Savard killed penalties as a forward sometimes, but you may not be able to spare him from the back end.

Peter Forsberg certainly had the skill set to kill penalties and did so for the first few seasons of his career, but you probably don't want him blocking shots any more than he has to.

 

[TorontoTrades]

advice for my special teams?

Naslund - Datsyuk - Jagr
Robitaille - Hawerchuk - McDonald
Roberts - Toews - Lemieux
Marleau - Goring - Guerin

Coffey - Foote
Howell - Blake
Housley - Seabrook
Campbell


This is what I've put together:

PP1 - 3 finishers who can score from anywhere. Coffey - Blake is a no brain PP pairing.

Robitaille - Hawerchuk - Jagr
Coffey - Blake

PP2 - Datsyuk on the second unit to limit ice time with him playing PP2, PK2 and top line. Housley and Seabrooks shot make a good back end.

Naslund - Datsyuk - McDonald
Housley - Seabrook



PK: Four forwards with very good PK track records that can all take faceoffs. Defensive pairings are pretty straight forward with Coffey and Housley on the bench. Datsyuk on PK2 in order to limit his ice time.


PK1 -
Toews - Marleau
Howell - Foote

PK2 -
Datsyuk - Goring
Blake - Seabrook





Anything I've missed? or suggestions of who I should be plugging in instead? PP2 RW was probably the spot I wasn't overly sure about but put McDonald there for now given his nine 10+ PP goal seasons and ten 20+ PP point seasons.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I'm not sure if Marleau would be any better than McDonald on the second unit, but depending on where yo decide to go with that, it doesn't really matter whether you have a right winger on each unit. If you want to get beyond the simplest "stick my best forwards on my powerplay", obviously you need someone to take faceoffs, but after that, you'd be more concerned with roles (net front, playmaker, shooter) and handedness, than the wing position you played.

The main thing I'd change is sticking Blake on the left to maximize his slap shot.
You could also use Hawerchuk on the point instead of Seabrook as well, if you want both Marleau and McDonald to have roles.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Which is the better setup for Kenora's 2nd PP unit...

Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko

- OR -

Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Tony Amonte
PK Subban - Daniel Alfredsson

So in Option B, Alfredsson is moving back to the point in place of Lutchenko and Amonte is playing the wing.

A few notes:
- Option B would give Lutchenko a couple extra ES minutes, but he is said to have a big shot from the point, so we would be losing that
- Amonte is only playing ES minutes, unless we go with option B
- Option B has 2 RHS on the point

Bios for reference:
Alfie: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/60007759/
Lutchenko: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/81979435/
Amonte: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/60642685/

 

[Dreakmur]

Which is the better setup for Kenora's 2nd PP unit...

Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko

- OR -

Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Tony Amonte
PK Subban - Daniel Alfredsson

So in Option B, Alfredsson is moving back to the point in place of Lutchenko and Amonte is playing the wing.

A few notes:
- Option B would give Lutchenko a couple extra ES minutes, but he is said to have a big shot from the point, so we would be losing that
- Amonte is only playing ES minutes, unless we go with option B
- Option B has 2 RHS on the point

Bios for reference:
Alfie: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/60007759/
Lutchenko: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/81979435/
Amonte: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/60642685/

You don't have anyone better than Larionov??

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

You don't have anyone better than Larionov??

We have Malkin...he may switched to the 2nd unit if we run into a strong 1st unit PK, but I've always been a fan of loading up on the 1st unit. Here it is for your reference...

Andreychuk - Yzerman - Malkin
Kelly - Geoffrion

 

[BenchBrawl]

Is there a stats somewhere showing the ratio of PP goals scored within the first 80 seconds versus the last 40 seconds of a PP? I just always had the impression that 2nd PP units were not that important, but maybe I am wrong.

Would be even better if we had them for the first 40 sec, the second 40 sec and the third 40 sec.Just have a feeling that a disproportionate amount of PP goals are scored in the second 40 sec, so when the 1st unit is installed.

 

[jarek]

Is there a stats somewhere showing the ratio of PP goals scored within the first 80 seconds versus the last 40 seconds of a PP? I just always had the impression that 2nd PP units were not that important, but maybe I am wrong.

I don't think this is the problem as much as ice time management. You don't score on most of your PPs and you at least want a 2nd unit that is capable of continuing to pressure the opposing PK.

 

[Sturminator]

Which is the better setup for Kenora's 2nd PP unit...

Toe Blake - Igor Larionov - Daniel Alfredsson
PK Subban - Vladimir Lutchenko

I'd go with this one. There's no reason to draft Lutchenko where you did if you're not going to use him on the PP, and Amonte is something of an ES specialist.