Around the NHL, Part III

[ap3x]

crosby suffered another concussion during practice on friday. tough break for him and the pens

I'd take that tough break any day if I were the current Stanley Cup + WC Champion .

 

[HisNoodliness]

4.76 x 3 years for Kucherov... Sure it's a bridge deal and there's a decent chance that Kuch walks in three years, but Yzerman manages that team so insanely well. It's almost like he has magical powers when you compare Stevie Y to Kenny. It's just not fair.

 

[InjuredChoker]

4.76 x 3 years for Kucherov... Sure it's a bridge deal and there's a decent chance that Kuch walks in three years, but Yzerman manages that team so insanely well. It's almost like he has magical powers when you compare Stevie Y to Kenny. It's just not fair.

he can't just walk (unless he goes to the KHL), still RFA after this deal is over.

 

[Frk It]

4.76 x 3 years for Kucherov... Sure it's a bridge deal and there's a decent chance that Kuch walks in three years, but Yzerman manages that team so insanely well. It's almost like he has magical powers when you compare Stevie Y to Kenny. It's just not fair.

They got a steal on both their Russians this summer. Props to Stevie on keeping them happy and getting affordable deals done.

 

[HisNoodliness]

he can't just walk (unless he goes to the KHL), still RFA after this deal is over.

Woah. I didn't even realize. I thought surely with such a good cap hit it would take him all the way to UFA. That makes this even more surprising.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

For as much as people say Yzerman's players hate him, he seems to retain them quite easily and for good prices.

 

[Reddwit]

Even if you take the tax factor into account, thats still the equivalent of getting Kucherov for less than $6M a year on a deal that leaves him as a RFA upon expiration. What a ****ing steal.

Yzerman's blunders pale in comparison to the slick moves he makes. And its not just contracts. Its trades and development to boot.

 

[Yemack]

For as much as people say Yzerman's players hate him, he seems to retain them quite easily and for good prices.

I would guess it's certainly easier if he has a winning team close to a stanley cup with a lineup full of high draft picks.

I'm sure you would know it seeing that's how KH and Wings used to get some players cheap.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would guess it's certainly easier if he has a winning team close to a stanley cup with a lineup full of high draft picks.

I'm sure you would know it seeing that's how KH and Wings used to get some players cheap.

Nobody said that Holland had "rifts" with major players on a regular basis at any point in his career. That is the distinction.

 

[Yemack]

Nobody said that Holland had "rifts" with major players on a regular basis at any point in his career. That is the distinction.

Touche

 

[The Zermanator]

Yzerman 2016: Kucherov, 3 yrs at 4.7M

Holland 2016: Helm, 5 yrs at 3.85M

That contrast is like turning on a lightswitch when you're wearing night-vision goggles.

I would guess it's certainly easier if he has a winning team close to a stanley cup with a lineup full of high draft picks.

I'm sure you would know it seeing that's how KH and Wings used to get some players cheap.

I wouldn't say that's true. Maybe way back in the days when Yzerman and Lidstrom would take the hometown discount, but those days are long gone.

When we were actually in contention last (ending around 2010), the only way to keep Zetterberg, Franzen, and Kronwall to reasonable $$ was by signing them to 10+ year deals. And we're paying for that now. Those aren't cheap contracts, what you gain in caphit you lose in years. You save some dollars upfront but you pay extra on the backend, big time. Those aren't discounts.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

It's an amazing contract. No doubt about that.

But we shouldn't compare Holland with good GM's. We should compare him with the likes of Jim Benning and Don Sweeney.

 

[Frk It]

Yzerman 2016: Kucherov, 3 yrs at 4.7M

Holland 2016: Helm, 5 yrs at 3.85M

That contrast is like turning on a lightswitch when you're wearing night-vision goggles.

As bad as Helm's contract is, comparing 100% RFA with 100% UFA contracts is totally freaking worthless.

 

[Claypool]

As bad as Helm's contract is, comparing 100% RFA with 100% UFA contracts is totally freaking worthless.

Florida also doesn't have state income tax, so Kucherov is getting paid like a $6+ million player. Yzerman is definitely using that to his advantage.

 

[The Zermanator]

As bad as Helm's contract is, comparing 100% RFA with 100% UFA contracts is totally freaking worthless.

I don't think so. Obviously they're not the same thing but leverage is still at play. RFAs can still sign offer sheets, they're not totally powerless. Both Helm and Kucherov could have signed with any team, difference being Tampa would have had last crack at Kucherov.

People were specualting what, 6-7M for Kucherov possibly? Yzerman signs him at 4.7M. And at only 3 years, he'll still be an RFA as far as I'm aware.

Helm gets 3.85, for 5 years. It's not all that dissimilar to RFAs in this case. When your RFA gets offer-sheeted, you decide whether you want to keep him at that price. If ANYBODY in the league was willing to offer Helm those $$ and term, which I seriously doubt, then we should have let him walk.

Yzerman signs Kucherov for $ and term that were below expectations. Holland signs Helm for possibly more $ and undeniably more term than was expected, despite the fact that he wasn't really competing with any other teams (like I said, no one's offering Helm those $ and term, look what happened with Quincey). That's the contrast.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Yzerman 2016: Kucherov, 3 yrs at 4.7M

Holland 2016: Helm, 5 yrs at 3.85M

That contrast is like turning on a lightswitch when you're wearing night-vision goggles.

Compare the Kucherov contract to the Tatar/Nyquist contracts and you have a better comparison.

 

[Claypool]

I don't think so. Obviously they're not the same thing but leverage is still at play. RFAs can still sign offer sheets, they're not totally powerless. Both Helm and Kucherov could have signed with any team, difference being Tampa would have had last crack at Kucherov.

People were specualting what, 6-7M for Kucherov possibly? Yzerman signs him at 4.7M. And at only 3 years, he'll still be an RFA as far as I'm aware.

Helm gets 3.85, for 5 years. It's not all that dissimilar to RFAs in this case. When your RFA gets offer-sheeted, you decide whether you want to keep him at that price. If ANYBODY in the league was willing to offer Helm those $$ and term, which I seriously doubt, then we should have let him walk.

Yzerman signs Kucherov for $ and term that were below expectations. Holland signs Helm for possibly more $ and undeniably more term than was expected, despite the fact that he wasn't really competing with any other teams (like I said, no one's offering Helm those $ and term, look what happened with Quincey). That's the contrast.

If you argument that Helm is overpaid when compared to Kucherov then just about every non-rookie forward is overpaid.

 

[The Zermanator]

If you argument that Helm is overpaid when compared to Kucherov then just about every non-rookie forward is overpaid.

I think I made my point pretty clear. Helm is overpaid, Kucherov is underpaid.

Let's not pretend like markets don't exist. Helm got overpaid relative to other UFAs of his status. Kucherov got underpaid relative to other RFAs of his status.

Compare the Kucherov contract to the Tatar/Nyquist contracts and you have a better comparison.

Ok fine. Nearly identical caphit. Kucherov has hit 60 points twice now, looks to be a perennial 60-70+ point player. Nyquist's best so far is 54 points. Hopefully his numbers will go up, and I think they will, but Kucherov is the better player. And still an RFA at the end if this deal.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Florida also doesn't have state income tax, so Kucherov is getting paid like a $6+ million player. Yzerman is definitely using that to his advantage.

he'd get about 300K more per year post taxes than he would in detroit. or the cap hit would have to be about 5.4M in detroit to match the amount he gets in tampa.

if taxes worked like that. half of his salary gets paid when he's on the road, as he's actually not doing his job in tampa. among other factors.

 

[Bench]

The biggest difference seems to be that Yzerman is OK playing hardball with his players. He's rubbed a few people the wrong way, though, always the risk you take.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think so. Obviously they're not the same thing but leverage is still at play. RFAs can still sign offer sheets, they're not totally powerless. Both Helm and Kucherov could have signed with any team, difference being Tampa would have had last crack at Kucherov.

People were specualting what, 6-7M for Kucherov possibly? Yzerman signs him at 4.7M. And at only 3 years, he'll still be an RFA as far as I'm aware.

Helm gets 3.85, for 5 years. It's not all that dissimilar to RFAs in this case. When your RFA gets offer-sheeted, you decide whether you want to keep him at that price. If ANYBODY in the league was willing to offer Helm those $$ and term, which I seriously doubt, then we should have let him walk.

Yzerman signs Kucherov for $ and term that were below expectations. Holland signs Helm for possibly more $ and undeniably more term than was expected, despite the fact that he wasn't really competing with any other teams (like I said, no one's offering Helm those $ and term, look what happened with Quincey). That's the contrast.

How often do we see offer sheets??? RFA's have significantly less leverage than UFA's and the caphits reflect that across the league. It is common for RFA's to be "underpaid" compared to what people think they are worth and UFA's to be "overpaid". There's exceptions to it, but it's true by and large across the league. We're an example of that ourselves. We got good value on Tatar and Mrazek, and lousy value on Helm and Abdelkader.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Compare the Kucherov contract to the Tatar/Nyquist contracts and you have a better comparison.

35 4+4
17 3+4

vs

45 22+20

 

[The Zermanator]

How often do we see offer sheets??? RFA's have significantly less leverage than UFA's and the caphits reflect that across the league. It is common for RFA's to be "underpaid" compared to what people think they are worth and UFA's to be "overpaid". There's exceptions to it, but it's true by and large across the league. We're an example of that ourselves. We got good value on Tatar and Mrazek, and lousy value on Helm and Abdelkader.

You're getting too hung up on RFA vs UFA. Go look at the reaction threads on the trade boards to the Kucherov and Helm signings. Kucherov's is unanimously praised for being a great value deal. That's relative to expectations for a RFA. Looking at Helm's, nobody likes it. I see a Jets fan glad he was no longer an option. "Feeling better about Shaw" was another gem. A fan of another team is glad their bad contract isn't as bad as our bad contract.

I know you've been vocal about your distaste for the Helm contract. Can you really not see the difference between Holland making the Helm signing and Yzerman making the Kucherov signing? And what it might say about Holland and Yzerman respectively as GMs? I won't hide it, I'd much rather Steve Yzerman were our GM right now.

 

[Frk It]

You're getting too hung up on RFA vs UFA. Go look at the reaction threads on the trade boards to the Kucherov and Helm signings. Kucherov's is unanimously praised for being a great value deal. That's relative to expectations for a RFA. Looking at Helm's, nobody likes it. I see a Jets fan glad he was no longer an option. "Feeling better about Shaw" was another gem. A fan of another team is glad their bad contract isn't as bad as our bad contract.

I know you've been vocal about your distaste for the Helm contract. Can you really not see the difference between Holland making the Helm signing and Yzerman making the Kucherov signing? And what it might say about Holland and Yzerman respectively as GMs? I won't hide it, I'd much rather Steve Yzerman were our GM right now.

And I'd say you're not considering nearly enough how much easier it is to negotiate with RFA's, and how little power they have.

I won't disagree that Kucherov's deal is good, even for a RFA contract. It is. But the conditions for those deals are so different that I don't even bother comparing UFA and RFA deals. I literally spent pages responding to people comparing mostly RFA contracts with the one we gave Dekeyser on the main board, to point out how vastly different it is.

If you want to compare Helm's sucky contract with some smart UFA deals that were given out, like the one to Joe Colborne, I say go right ahead and I'll back you on that all day.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

The biggest difference seems to be that Yzerman is OK playing hardball with his players. He's rubbed a few people the wrong way, though, always the risk you take.

And so far Yzerman hasn't really been bit for it.

Once we see the Drouins and Kucherovs of the world start ditching Tampa, we can say that Yzerman's strategy hasn't worked.

I think Yzerman's build of the Lightning is a touch overrated, but I give him a lot of credit for not only asset management, but player retainment as well. Honestly, I am incredibly envious of the team that Tampa Bay has, because it is not only good but also young and quick and entertaining.