Player Discussion: Andrew Copp, the unsung hero

[jsbarnby]

Copp was one of Winnipeg's best players in the series against St Louis last year. I have long believed he should be given a serious shot at 2C.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You’re starting to not sound like Mort. Did someone hack your account for the post count?

Sorry if I'm not up to your expectations today. Off day, but not a hack.

 

[Duke749]

Sorry if I'm not up to your expectations today. Off day, but not a hack.

Mort, are you panicking over this upcoming season?

 

[VictoriaJetsFan]

To the Copp critics.....the pro-Copp crowd is asking for Copp to be given a chance, not to be slotted in forever..

There is a differance.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Well, for all the Little hate on this board I still see him as a better C than Copp. I see Copp as a solid bottom sixer. Maybe there is upside there that will start to show more this year. I think the right answer is to split up Nickels and Wheels and redo the lines accordingly. But if he gets a few starts higher up the lineup and makes good on it, great for him. I will be happy. I do acknowledge that even though Little (imho) is a better C than Copp, he and Laine don't click.

So if it is about how to help Laine, given what I believe is a public ultimatum by Laine and his agent about utilization, I don't think Patrick would take well to playing with Copp.

"Hey Patrick, you are really important to us as we have been telling you all summer (even though we weren't willing to talk about your contract until a couple weeks ago - there is an innocent explanation for that - trust us). Listen, you are so important that we have heard your concern, we understand you want more time playing on the top line, and so we are going to put you with Copp. Now that we have solved that problem, here is the contract please - sign on the bottom line"

I'm not proposing this out of Little hate. I still like Little, though not as much as I used to. But we have thrown a lot of assets at replacing him without success. He is good but not quite good enough. He is good but has no chemistry with Laine. Etc, etc.

We used to see Little as a VG defensive C with decent offense. The last couple of years his defensive play has been very poor and his offense is falling off. He is still VG at FOs but otherwise is not quite up to 2C. He can reasonably be expected to be at least a small increment less effective each year at this point.

You say you see Copp as a lesser C but what is that based on? Look at all the stats hn777 provided. Look at what Copp has managed to do in his very limited opportunity higher up the depth chart - and just give him a chance. If he fails, he fails and a lot of posters can say "told you so". Big deal. Who cares? What will we have lost by trying? We aren't winning the cup this year. We probably aren't even making the PO this year. OTOH, if it succeeds we just might make the PO. If we make the PO we could possibly even win the cup, though that is pretty unlikely. But trying it and failing is going to cost us absolutely nothing and there is lots of reason to believe hope that it will work.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

To the Copp critics.....the pro-Copp crowd is asking for Copp to be given a chance, not to be slotted in forever..

There is a differance.

If he gets the same chance as ELL has been given to work, then it essentially is forever.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Mort, are you panicking over this upcoming season?

Nope. Not panic. But assuming Buff retires - or even plays but without the competitive drive - we are in some trouble this year.

We still have one of the top F groups in the league, as long as Scheifele is healthy, but our D corps needs a complete rebuild. That is going to take a couple of years.

Then there is the unknown of KC and Laine still unsigned.

 

[JetsUK]

You make a compelling case. Others have been pushing the idea of Copp at 2C based on less thorough analyses. Makes you wonder why it hasn't been given a good trial. Could it be that he has not passed the coaching staff's eye-test, i.e., not sexy enough?

This does not prove that he would succeed in that role. It says that he has been very successful in the role he has been given to date. And it screams loudly that he should be tried at 2C.

My guess is that Copp's lack of a decent audition as 2C is more a function of coaching/ organizational blind spots than some long-term reasoned analysis, statistical, eye-test or some combination thereof. Might be as simple as Copp fitting into the PoMo schema of top/bottom 6 as an energy/checking player, and PoMo/ the org just not cluing into him as someone who might actually be an effective centre for high-powered wingers (without necessarily having their level of offence himself). Most of the time that logic might be accurate, but if he ticks enough relevant boxes for a 2C -- passing, vision, speed, size, LHS, puck possession and protection, defensive responsibility, etc --why not give him a shot? That "Why not try it?" question has haunted the Jets for a while I think.

Interestingly, Copp's interview with Murat makes an excellent sideways case for his fitness for a 2C tryout -- diplomatically, but convincingly IMO.

 

[Bigfish]

After Chevy felt the need to pimp Copp on his new contract Copp is out of here in 2 years, 3 years max.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I think the reason Maurice is playing Copp on LW is that he wants both Copp and Little to play top-9 minutes. If Copp goes to C, that puts Little to the 4th line.

Maybe on a Maurice coached team but logically it doesn't. Logically, it puts Lowry on the 4th line. IMHO, of course.

That might be a helluva 4th line too with what Chibisov is showing so far (small sample/pre-season).
Chibisov - Lowry - Appleton

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

What was the Jets arb offer for Copp, $1.5M? Does that sound like they see him as a 2C? I will be very surprised if he doesn't spend most of the season as a Lowry wing man.

I expect most would agree with that. Or at least a LW somewhere.

But he has played very well at C when given the opportunity. We have lots of LWs. We are short at C.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

They paid him based on his previous contributions.

But I think the issue is that they don't see either Little or Copp as 4C, so one of them has to play on the wing. They really don't have space on RW for Little with Wheeler, Laine and Roslovic there.


1a) Ehlers-Scheifele-Laine
1b) Copp-Lowry-Wheeler
3) Connor-Little-Roslovic
4) Perreault-Letestu-Appleton

They don't see Copp as a 2C but they might see Lowry there? We need a new "they".

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

neither by the way does the arbitrator see cop as a top 6 player by his decision. Same as last year hearing how roslovic was going to be 2c. Bottom 6 player like roslovic.

Love the way people hang labels on players. Once labeled they can never be anything else.

It is exactly like old time type casting in Hollywood.

 

[DannyGallivan]

Meh... forget Little or Copp, I'm most intrigued by moving Wheeler to centre. He has all the tools to succeed in the position (well, I really don't know how good he is in the face-off circle, but other than that...). He's a big body and he knows how to dish to his wingers.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I really don’t think this offseason has been some kind of epic train wreck. But that’s just my perspective. Maybe I’m numb to sports pain after watching the Falcons and UGA lose the way they did in consecutive years and see my hockey team move to Winnipeg.

Numb to the pain has to help sometimes.

Train wreck is the wrong kind of term to use, IMO. The possible Buff retirement part would be like a train wreck - unanticipated and with terrible consequences. Most of the rest was expected, even planned in part. But the sum of it = an epically bad off-season. 4 of our top 6 D men from last year - gone. That alone represents one of the worst off-seasons by any team in my memory. Also lost our #8 Dman and our top "energy" forward. Those are small losses but more than zero. Then there is the uncertainty surrounding Laine and Connor. We expected Laine to be difficult to sign but why has Connor not signed? Recent contracts should have nailed his numbers down pretty solidly. On top of that there is the possibility that Laine will have to be traded that is suggested by the sum of the things he has said lately.

That adds up to an incredibly bad off-season. If there has ever been one worse it would have to be the train wreck in Ottawa a year ago. At least Ottawa got something back for most of the players they lost, even if it was less than their perceived values. So we are probably even worse than that. All we got back from all of that was Pionk and a pick.

 

[Duke749]

Numb to the pain has to help sometimes.

Train wreck is the wrong kind of term to use, IMO. The possible Buff retirement part would be like a train wreck - unanticipated and with terrible consequences. Most of the rest was expected, even planned in part. But the sum of it = an epically bad off-season. 4 of our top 6 D men from last year - gone. That alone represents one of the worst off-seasons by any team in my memory. Also lost our #8 Dman and our top "energy" forward. Those are small losses but more than zero. Then there is the uncertainty surrounding Laine and Connor. We expected Laine to be difficult to sign but why has Connor not signed? Recent contracts should have nailed his numbers down pretty solidly. On top of that there is the possibility that Laine will have to be traded that is suggested by the sum of the things he has said lately.

That adds up to an incredibly bad off-season. If there has ever been one worse it would have to be the train wreck in Ottawa a year ago. At least Ottawa got something back for most of the players they lost, even if it was less than their perceived values. So we are probably even worse than that. All we got back from all of that was Pionk and a pick.

The Buff thing is the only thing that would make me think this offseason is a disaster. And not because our team will be much weaker, but it will be far less entertaining as Buff is truly one of a kind.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

To the Copp critics.....the pro-Copp crowd is asking for Copp to be given a chance, not to be slotted in forever..

There is a differance.

Exactly.

 

[Howard Chuck]

What was the Jets arb offer for Copp, $1.5M? Does that sound like they see him as a 2C? I will be very surprised if he doesn't spend most of the season as a Lowry wing man.

That was my thought as well. I think this goes nowhere based solely on their offer.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

After Chevy felt the need to pimp Copp on his new contract Copp is out of here in 2 years, 3 years max.

If he is given a real shot at 2C I think that changes. If he succeeds they give him a nice extension next off-season. If it fails, at least he will know he was given the chance and he may become satisfied with his 3LW role - and paycheque.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The Buff thing is the only thing that would make me think this offseason is a disaster. And not because our team will be much weaker, but it will be far less entertaining as Buff is truly one of a kind.

The Buff thing is what pushes it over the edge. Both for weakening the team and for the loss of entertainment. Without that we could hope to score enough to win enough games. We would have had 2 years to rebuild the D corps with quite a few strong prospects.

Even without Buff we could add Niku, Samberg, Heinola by next year. Pionk could improve. Kovacevic and/or Gawanke could strengthen the right side. If we use Buff's cap to sign 1 UFA RHD next off-season the D rebuild could be adequately finished. But this year is going to be tough sledding.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

I'm not proposing this out of Little hate. I still like Little, though not as much as I used to. But we have thrown a lot of assets at replacing him without success. He is good but not quite good enough. He is good but has no chemistry with Laine. Etc, etc.

We used to see Little as a VG defensive C with decent offense. The last couple of years his defensive play has been very poor and his offense is falling off. He is still VG at FOs but otherwise is not quite up to 2C. He can reasonably be expected to be at least a small increment less effective each year at this point.

You say you see Copp as a lesser C but what is that based on? Look at all the stats hn777 provided. Look at what Copp has managed to do in his very limited opportunity higher up the depth chart - and just give him a chance. If he fails, he fails and a lot of posters can say "told you so". Big deal. Who cares? What will we have lost by trying? We aren't winning the cup this year. We probably aren't even making the PO this year. OTOH, if it succeeds we just might make the PO. If we make the PO we could possibly even win the cup, though that is pretty unlikely. But trying it and failing is going to cost us absolutely nothing and there is lots of reason to believe hope that it will work.

You mean the stats that are then used to then say the Copp ~= Scheifele? Sorry.

Like I said, I like Copp. He is doing his job well. Will he turn into a C that gets over 40 points 8 years in a row? (exclude lockout) IDK. Kind of doubt it, but maybe. Sure hope he does. By 25, you can pretty much see how well someone can handle the puck. If he gets the chance at 2C , I wish him all the success in the world.

 

[ffh]

Love the way people hang labels on players. Once labeled they can never be anything else.

It is exactly like old time type casting in Hollywood.

kettle meet pot. I mean he has been here for 5 years he isn't a top 6 player.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Meh... forget Little or Copp, I'm most intrigued by moving Wheeler to centre. He has all the tools to succeed in the position (well, I really don't know how good he is in the face-off circle, but other than that...). He's a big body and he knows how to dish to his wingers.

He is weak defensively at RW, where he is accustomed to playing. He doesn't seem to have much idea how to play defense as a C.

This idea keeps coming up because he didn't look too bad at C a couple of years ago when he filled in for Scheif, but a deeper look at that stint showed that he was actually pretty bad.

If all it took to make a C out of a winger was learning to take FOs there wouldn't be so much of a premium on Cs. There wouldn't be so many Cs who are forced to become wingers in the NHL.

 

[mazmin]

Yes he does, he should be the 2C right now. Connor-Copp-Wheeler could work great.

A left handed centre in Copp digging for pucks and passing to Laine on the RW 5v5 could work. Ehlers or Connor on the other side. Little produced at 0.5 ppg last year. If Copp shows he can do better then it potentially creates a pretty decent third scoring line. Roslovic needs a new contract so some veteran and offensively inclined linemates may help him express the scoring potential that we all see in him.

Ehlers Scheifele Wheeler
Connor Copp Laine
Perreault Little Roslovic
Chibisov Lowry Appleton
xLetestu xBourque

With how good Copp looked at the end of last year and early this camp, maybe he’ll be the solution to splitting Little-Laine without splitting Wheeler-Scheifele.

 

[Psych0dad]

A left handed centre in Copp digging for pucks and passing to Laine on the RW 5v5 could work. Ehlers or Connor on the other side. Little produced at 0.5 ppg last year. If Copp shows he can do better then it potentially creates a pretty decent third scoring line. Roslovic needs a new contract so some veteran and offensively inclined linemates may help him express the scoring potential that we all see in him.

Ehlers Scheifele Wheeler
Connor Copp Laine
Perreault Little Roslovic
Chibisov Lowry Appleton
xLetestu xBourque

With how good Copp looked at the end of last year and early this camp, maybe he’ll be the solution to splitting Little-Laine without splitting Wheeler-Scheifele.

Copp definitely fits better with Laine than Little does. He did play a few games with Copp previous season and it was actually pretty good. Much better fit than Little. Jets won't acquire a 2C so they should give Copp a fair chance at it. He is better than Little. And a much better fit for Laine.

Scheifele-Wheeler was so bad last season they really need broken up though.