Player Discussion: Andrew Copp, the unsung hero

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hn777

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Copp having insanely good advanced stats while looking like a grinder who can't stick handle is the ultimate battle of the eye test vs analytics.

If he turns into a top 6 player, I'll be pleasantly surprised but I'll also never trust myself to evaluate players again.
Yeah, he is not the best stick handler, but always in good position. To me, a top-six player doesn't have to look a certain way. If he is among the six forwards getting the best results at 5v5, he should play "top-six minutes".
And, it's not like he is without offensive potential.
 

Whileee

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Yeah, he is not the best stick handler, but always in good position. To me, a top-six player doesn't have to look a certain way. If he is among the six forwards getting the best results at 5v5, he should play "top-six minutes".
And, it's not like he is without offensive potential.
Right, and in Maurice's post-game presser he was trying to explain why Copp was so effective, without looking like a top-6 F to most observers. He's incredibly smart so he can play with other talented players, he knows what he's good at and what he needs to do to be effective, and he works his tail off for every second of every shift.
 

Howard Chuck

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My point of view is that we will never find out because we never give anyone a chance to improve the Jets' situations. We have a need to fix the second line (because we probably aren't going to get Wheeler to play with Little) so we have Roslovic and Copp. What do we have to lose?

Copp looked great last night playing with better linemates. Who knows?
 

Whileee

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It must have been a rough offseason if we are trying to turn Copp into a Hero. He does his job but come on, man.
I'm confused about this board. Most of the time we're amateur statisticians, but then when push comes to shove we often ignore the actual results. To refresh our memory...

upload_2019-9-19_8-40-48.png


upload_2019-9-19_8-41-49.png
 

Howard Chuck

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Right, and in Maurice's post-game presser he was trying to explain why Copp was so effective, without looking like a top-6 F to most observers. He's incredibly smart so he can play with other talented players, he knows what he's good at and what he needs to do to be effective, and he works his tail off for every second of every shift.
Yup.... agree.... give him a shot.
 
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ERYX

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I remember the howls of rage around here when Copp was given time on the first line after the injury bug hit a few years ago. Interesting how times change.

Copp may get a chance higher up in the lineup if the Connor/Laine holdout extends for a couple more weeks into the regular season.
 

JetsUK

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I remember the howls of rage around here when Copp was given time on the first line after the injury bug hit a few years ago. Interesting how times change.

Copp may get a chance higher up in the lineup if the Connor/Laine holdout extends for a couple more weeks into the regular season.

I remember that too, but players get better, especially when they’re as smart and quick and strong as Copp, and he was easily good enough last season to centre Laine and Ehlers effectively, IMO. His consistency and versatility are impressive.

When he was playing at the WJC I remember that quite a few analysts expressed surprise that a relatively unheralded player could perform so well with elite teammates — and then he did. Seems like a useful knack.
 

Jetfaninflorida

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I'm confused about this board. Most of the time we're amateur statisticians, but then when push comes to shove we often ignore the actual results. To refresh our memory...

View attachment 255713

View attachment 255715
I saw the table. But thanks for posting again, I guess. I like Copp. He gets his job done. He is versatile. He put up 25 points last year. Hero? Whatever floats your boat.
 

Neuf

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I tend to agree with the results crowd. His offensive contributions just don't scream top 6. If we mention linemates, then we have to do that with every player, including those currently having linemates as a major mudslinging point during their hold-out.

I'd give him a preseason game at centre with ehlers and roslovic or something. I prefer his centre game to his wing game.
 

hn777

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Apr 22, 2019
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His offensive contributions just don't scream top 6.
It actually does. Last season, he was 4th on the Jets in total points /60 and 5th in goals /60 (both at 5v5). Obviously, it doesn't amount to a whole lot with an average of 10:34 TOI and no PP, but give him a chance on the 2nd line with offensively gifted wingers, and I am pretty sure, he will put up at least what Little does, while being stronger defensively.
 

ffh

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Had more 5v5 points/60 minutes than Connor last season, playing with guys like Lemieux, Appleton, Lowry.
I don't want to beat a dead horse but didn't petan and dano have good points/60 also. it means nothing unless you play full time to compare to someone who does. connor is in a different league then copp. connor is a 1st liner and copp is a 4th liner.
 
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nippanappa

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Copp is a beauty, makes all those visibly small things well so his line mates look better. To me it's criminal he hasn't been giving more opportunities with the top offensive guys although he has been great in checking role also.

How about

Laine - Copp - Wheeler
Ehlers - Copp - Wheeler
Connor - Copp - Laine or
Ehlers - Copp - Laine

Would love to see him also on the wing in top6 but that means someone of Ehlers, Laine, Connor would drop to third line and 2C remains a problem.
 

Whileee

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I don't want to beat a dead horse but didn't petan and dano have good points/60 also. it means nothing unless you play full time to compare to someone who does. connor is in a different league then copp. connor is a 1st liner and copp is a 4th liner.
Points/60 (5v5), 2014/15 through 2018/19:

Copp 1.49
Dano 1.42
Petan 0.94

Also:

Frolik 1.62
Armia 1.26

I agree that Connor has way more scoring talent than Copp and is a higher end player, but the point is that Copp remains somewhat underrated. Remember the drumbeat for having Petan and Dano playing with top-6 players?
 

Jack722

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I don't want to beat a dead horse but didn't petan and dano have good points/60 also. it means nothing unless you play full time to compare to someone who does. connor is in a different league then copp. connor is a 1st liner and copp is a 4th liner.

Amazing that someone whose player assessment amounts to checking what line they're on feels qualified to discuss statistics..

You're right that they might not translate to results with higher TOI but it's worth giving him a shot. How else would you determine that someone deserves more icetime??
 

hn777

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Apr 22, 2019
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I don't want to beat a dead horse but didn't petan and dano have good points/60 also. it means nothing unless you play full time to compare to someone who does. connor is in a different league then copp. connor is a 1st liner and copp is a 4th liner.
How does a small sample size become a big sample size? By extending it! How do you know Copp can't continue doing what he's doing without trying it?
BTW, he has played more than 2300 minutes over the last three seasons (5v5), so its really not a small sample size. He has always performed clearly above average defensively, but actually also slightly above average offensively, while last season he took another step offensively. I think, he has earned more TOI and more offensive opportunities.
 
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Whileee

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how is beaulieu a 4 in EV Gar.... ahead of Scheifele, Wheeler, Lowry, Ehlers etc..
I'd have to dig much deeper into the model coefficients, but my top line guess is his adjusted on-ice goals for and against relative to teammates is giving him a lot of love in the GAR estimates.

His sample size was relatively small, which is why I really think these estimates should include indicators of statistical error (like confidence intervals).
 
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ffh

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Amazing that someone whose player assessment amounts to checking what line they're on feels qualified to discuss statistics..

You're right that they might not translate to results with higher TOI but it's worth giving him a shot. How else would you determine that someone deserves more icetime??
5 years of pro coaches watching him practice and play every game seems like a good way of determining if he can play higher up in the lineup.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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Disclaimer:
(All text written before the preseason game today against Minny haha)

Yeah, I am pretty high on Andrew Copp, I think he is very underrated, and I would like him tried in the top-6 as our 2nd line center.
I understand he's not a sexy player. He was not a high draft pick, nor is he scoring highlight-reel goals, but it is difficult to argue with his on ice results on even strength as a two-way player.

Over the last three seasons he has the third best GF% (forwards) in the league on a top 15 that goes (GF%):

Oshie 60.9
Craig Smith 60.4
Andrew Copp 59.8
Panarin 59.2
Kucherov 59.1
Zucker 59.0
Schwartz 59.0
Radulov 58.8
Pastrnak 58.7
Point 58.7
Bergeron 58.6
Backstrom 58.6
Connolly 58.6
Josh Anderson 58.5
Marchand 58.4

And just last season, Copp was third to only Crosby and Teravainen.

If we look at GF% Rel, over the last three seasons Copp is the 12th best in the league on a top 15 that goes:

Mark Stone, Zetterberg, Palmieri, Hall, Couturier, Mackinnon, McDavid, Mantha, Teravainen, Barkov, Aho, Copp, Rantanen, Zucker, Landeskog

Just last season, Copp was second to only Radulov in GF% Rel.

(all stats from naturalstattrick.com)

As seen, Copp is in great company with a lot of solid two-way players.

Looking on the Jets alone, Copp is the clear leader in those stats at 5v5.

Copp has more DZ starts than OZ starts (52.7% over the last three regular seasons), and as we know, he has faced tough competition on the CLT line with great results, so I can't see, why he shouldn't be able to succeed playing with more offensively skilled guys against tough competition.

Looking back on his draft pages on HFJets, I noticed University of Michigan hockey fans all telling, how Copp excelled when given increased opportunity, and showed quite a bit of offensive potential.

He does it by having high hockey IQ and compete level, and always being in the right position causing him and his line to have a high percentage of HDCF (best on the Jets over the last three seasons with a HDCF% Rel of 7.41).

Looking at more "advanced stats", the picture is the same.

Copp has a (slightly) positive impact on the offence and a clear beneficial impact on the defence (data from 2017-19).

View attachment 255585

or according to evolving hockeys RAPM model (data from 2016-19), a positive impact at even strength, just don't play him on the PP:

View attachment 255597

He is among the best Jets in Evolving Hockeys GAR model (2018-19 data) (if you take away impact from PP, he looks to be the best at even strength).

View attachment 255599

He compares quite well to Scheifele, a legit top center in the league, Scheifele being better rated offensively according to Evolving Hockeys GAR model (data from 2016-19), but Copp better defensively.

View attachment 255601

He has shown it consistently on the Jets; CLT - the "Lowry line", may after all have been the "Copp line", as the two others did not get nearly as good results, after Copp was moved. Centering Lemieux/Appleton and Ehlers/Laine, those lines have also outplayed and outscored the opposition.

I think he is underplayed 5v5 (incomprehensible that his TOI was down last season compared with the previous), and I would like to see him centering Ehlers (RW) and Connor (LW). Connor is one of the few, who can keep up with Ehlers' speed, and Copp is quite mobile himself. Defensively, Copp being clearly above-average should be able to make up for Connor being below average, and Ehlers somewhat average (I see Ehlers as a shooter and a goal scorer, and he prefers (or used to?) to play the off wing, so why not put him in a position to succeed).

Those Jets fans claiming Copp, will never be more than a bottom-6 guy, I would like to know why? I have seen no objective data suggest, he can't get good results in a top-6 role. Again, I define top-6 based on achieved results (and accordingly TOI), not sexyness/60.

You make a compelling case. Others have been pushing the idea of Copp at 2C based on less thorough analyses. Makes you wonder why it hasn't been given a good trial. Could it be that he has not passed the coaching staff's eye-test, i.e., not sexy enough?

This does not prove that he would succeed in that role. It says that he has been very successful in the role he has been given to date. And it screams loudly that he should be tried at 2C.
 

Mortimer Snerd

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No question he's a great bottom-sixer, but those stats are inflated due to sheltering and limited minutes
His ceiling isn't high enough to be a permanent top-sixer IMO

He has not been sheltered. Quite the opposite. The CLT line was often used to shut down opponents top 6 lines and they got a lot of D zone starts. True he had limited minutes.

Your opinion of his ceiling is subjective. He hasn't been given the opportunity to demonstrate where his ceiling actually is. In the limited opportunity he has had with skilled linemates he has achieved at a 2C level. You could end up being right about his ceiling - or wrong. It needs to be tried.

He is a left shot C. That should fit better with Laine on the RW than right shot Little.
 
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