All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread

[NoNecksCurse]

and one last point so it doesn't seem im just drunk rambling on emotions. the eye test and the numbers back my position. PK was a top 20 defenseman Corsi wise in the whole NHL last year. he is 4th best on our team alone in terms of defenseman. but he takes the tough spots, always starts in defensive zone, playing with emelin. I get it but he is the highest paid player on our team is coming in analytically at what 12th on the whole team? if you don't like advanced statistics that's fine but it's kind of like ignoring science. there may be some gray area but under neath there is a whole lot of truth. PK needs our best defenseman back paired with him in ekholm.

someone go detective gadget and pull up any posts where I'm overly critical of PK before this year. I've praised the guy more than most and defended him at times last year. I'm just calling it like i see it. he is average at best right now overall. makes you say wow every now and then but leaves you shaking your head more times than you say wow for a good reason.

 

[FilthyScoresberg]

All I’ll say is that I was at the Chicago game and Subban was forcing everyone to the outside in very clutch moments; by far the most noticeable D-man other than maybe Josi. PK is a hell of a player. When he’s on HIS game, he’s worth more than 9m. Refute that if you will, but we all remember the playoffs against Chicago... he just needs to get settled back in with Ekholm and I’m sure he’ll gain his confidence back.
As far as the Johansen thing... yeah he’s struggled a tad in the beginning but he came off of a pretty serious injury. Give him a lil slack, he’s been pretty beastly as of late, especially defensively. His backchecking has been something serious.

 

[Scoresberg]

Joey should've had 4 assists in that VAN game people just couldn't finish.

 

[RickP]

Joey should've had 4 assists in that VAN game people just couldn't finish.

If we're thinking about the same plays, I think Subban would have had 2 or 3 points on those 4 assists

 

[Legionnaire11]

No player is worth $9M, but I also don't pay their salary so it really isn't a concern.

On top of that, if we were paying players what they're worth, Subban would make less and Josi, Ekholm, Ellis would make more so it really evens out. If anyone wants to compare player salaries and get upset about who is worth what, let the owners, managers and players do that.

Johansen and Bonino are overpaid as well, but nobody talks about their contracts. Contracts are signed at certain times, for certain amount and for certain reasons. It's not really up to us to judge a player in the ice based on salary.

Subban came in last year and was just one reason among several that the team went to the Cup Final, and right now they're looking like a group who could definitely make another run at it this season. Yet here we are talking about how much P.K. is paid?

Last point, if you think he is making more bad plays than good, you should probably stop posting so much and spend more time watching and learning. He's not perfect, he's not as good as he was advertised to be, but he's definitely an overall positive player on the team that goes well beyond just goals and assists.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

I've seen PK play like a $9M defenseman before, but not recently. Last year I thought he might have been suffering from lingering back injury effects. Then he was a rock in the playoffs and approaching his full value again. So this year I kind of expected he'd step back up into that Norris-contention $9M calibre of play. Okay, so he hasn't done that, alas. I'd peg him worth about $7.5M the way he's playing now. That's still pretty darn good. It's still not what he's capable of.

You kinda want to see a player perform up to his top end capability. Johansen is coming on, but he has been in a similar boat for much of this year.

The team is doing pretty well despite this, so if top end players still have more to give, that's probably great for us.

 

[adsfan]

I've seen PK play like a $9M defenseman before, but not recently. Last year I thought he might have been suffering from lingering back injury effects. Then he was a rock in the playoffs and approaching his full value again. So this year I kind of expected he'd step back up into that Norris-contention $9M calibre of play. Okay, so he hasn't done that, alas. I'd peg him worth about $7.5M the way he's playing now. That's still pretty darn good. It's still not what he's capable of.

You kinda want to see a player perform up to his top end capability. Johansen is coming on, but he has been in a similar boat for much of this year.

The team is doing pretty well despite this, so if top end players still have more to give, that's probably great for us.

If the fans see the results!

 

[LCPreds]

I may be alone in this but really couldn't care less what someone is getting paid. It really is basically irrelevant at this point unless it's being discussed because you want to trade him.

 

[Mortiest Morty]

and one last point so it doesn't seem im just drunk rambling on emotions. the eye test and the numbers back my position. PK was a top 20 defenseman Corsi wise in the whole NHL last year. he is 4th best on our team alone in terms of defenseman. but he takes the tough spots, always starts in defensive zone, playing with emelin. I get it but he is the highest paid player on our team is coming in analytically at what 12th on the whole team?

Subban is sitting at a CF% of 48.82 with 61% D-zone starts ratio playing with Emelin who is sitting at 44.8 Corsi, worst on the team. Subban also has the worst CF% Quality of Teammates on the entire team and the highest CF% Quality of Competition. He plays with the worst forwards and D-man on the team, against the other teams top players (All in regards to Corsi, of course). Rule number one on advanced stats is that they mean zero without context. No one in the entire league is likely to have a positive corsi rating in those circumstances. That it's so close to 50% is actually quite impressive.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

and one last point so it doesn't seem im just drunk rambling on emotions. the eye test and the numbers back my position. PK was a top 20 defenseman Corsi wise in the whole NHL last year. he is 4th best on our team alone in terms of defenseman. but he takes the tough spots, always starts in defensive zone, playing with emelin. I get it but he is the highest paid player on our team is coming in analytically at what 12th on the whole team? if you don't like advanced statistics that's fine but it's kind of like ignoring science. there may be some gray area but under neath there is a whole lot of truth. PK needs our best defenseman back paired with him in ekholm.

someone go detective gadget and pull up any posts where I'm overly critical of PK before this year. I've praised the guy more than most and defended him at times last year. I'm just calling it like i see it. he is average at best right now overall. makes you say wow every now and then but leaves you shaking your head more times than you say wow for a good reason.

Subban is sitting at a CF% of 48.82 with 61% D-zone starts ratio playing with Emelin who is sitting at 44.8 Corsi, worst on the team. Subban also has the worst CF% Quality of Teammates on the entire team and the highest CF% Quality of Competition. He plays with the worst forwards and D-man on the team, against the other teams top players (All in regards to Corsi, of course). Rule number one on advanced stats is that they mean zero without context. No one in the entire league is likely to have a positive corsi rating in those circumstances. That it's so close to 50% is actually quite impressive.

 

[Mortiest Morty]

I'm well aware you posted that, so you must agree that all things considered, his corsi numbers are actually pretty good, yes? Then why do you try bring them up in a disparaging way?

 

[NoNecksCurse]

I'm well aware you posted that, so you must agree that all things considered, his corsi numbers are actually pretty good, yes? Then why do you try bring them up in a disparaging way?

they aren't impressive to me in the least.

he's won a Norris, highest paid defenseman in the league. Shouldn't he be superior than the best from the other team? I don't care who he plays with or against. sure it's challenge but he has been average this season. I feel the numbers show that. maybe it's emelin. again, don't really care and done discussing it.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

I'm well aware you posted that, so you must agree that all things considered, his corsi numbers are actually pretty good, yes? Then why do you try bring them up in a disparaging way?

wouldn't you agree a guy like emelin's game will translate to a bad to horrible corsi even if he is playing his game well? and no one on our team is just down right awful except our 4th line and I would agree subban plays with them more than any other defenseman pair. that still doesn't just excuse all his numbers. he hasn't been horrible. he has been meh. I think that's a fair assessment. If you and everyone else have no complaints that's fine. I just can't get behind the argument. if it's emelin is weighing him down and he will be playoff subban again when he is back with ekholm, I can get behind that argument. I'll wait for your response and read it and that can be that.

 

[RickP]

wouldn't you agree a guy like emelin's game will translate to a bad to horrible corsi even if he is playing his game well? and no one on our team is just down right awful except our 4th line and I would agree subban plays with them more than any other defenseman pair. that still doesn't just excuse all his numbers. he hasn't been horrible. he has been meh. I think that's a fair assessment. If you and everyone else have no complaints that's fine. I just can't get behind the argument. if it's emelin is weighing him down and he will be playoff subban again when he is back with ekholm, I can get behind that argument. I'll wait for your response and read it and that can be that.

Yup, so far he's been meh, that's a fair assesment. Some great moments, some bad moments. Overall still solid IMO, but considering his usage/quality of teammates, being solid won't lead to outstanding results. If he can keep up being alright while playing tough minutes with Emelin, until Ellis is back, I think the Preds are in business. Then we can expect the top 4 to be as effective as they were last year in the playoffs.

Don't know if you noticed tonight, but Subban played a shift with Ekholm in the 1st period, and they had a great cycling going on, which lead to Subban passing the puck to Turris in the slot, and Miller made a great save. That wouldn't happen with Emelin.

 

[Price is Wright]

Emelin pulls down any defenceman he plays with.

Subban is also a second half kind of player. He's often quiet in the first half. Here's like an old computer. Takes some time to get warm.

The only reason he's a $9M player and not a $6.5M player is Bergevin tried to fight him on his contract instead of locking him up early. His agent wanted the Doughty deal but less, Bergevin fought him into a bridge, Subban accepted and won the Norris. Then he proved he was the best playoff performer in a city starved for playoff success. It put him in a position to demand $9M. That might not matter to anyone today, but that's the context.

 

[glenngineer]

All I'm going to say is this, pre Subban we made it to the second round how many times, twice? With Subban all the way to the Finals. Is that a true indictment of Subban, probably overstating his worth but he and Johansen have changed this team's dynamics dramatically. Do you notice these guys play with a chip on their shoulder now? Do you notice they look for guys after they score because they want to say, hey, great pass or hustle to get me the puck? Did you notice Sissons going over to Watson after the Chicago game to say dude, those blocks were huge? Do you notice pretty much everyone going to Rinne to say thanks for saving our bacon after a great save caused by one of their breakdowns?

So we can talk about salary and if he's worth it or not but this team, with Subban, is a lot better off than it was with Weber on it on many different levels. What did Turris say when interviewed the other night? A young group that loves to have fun and clown around but when it comes time to work, they put in the work. Not saying teams in the past didn't have this fun but there is a swagger about this group. Was it the changing of the guard? Who knows but this is a different team now and while you can single out single plays all you want, I tend to look at the forrest.

 

[japhi]

PK is a great player but the guy that won the Norris had 60 percent o zone starts, didn't kill penalties, etc. That player also was able to get his shot on net. Not sure what happened but he used to be dangerous on the pp.

Subban today is a better player then the guy that won the Norris but 15 more stud d have changed me into the league since the, And no dman will ever compete for that trophy playing hard shut down minutes. If Weber was ever utilized like Subban was, or Burns is, he would have mulitiple Norris trophies.

 

[anofsti]

The question isn't really Subbans Cap hit, but rather his compartive cap hit compared to Webers. 2 million more and four less years for someone that is better and younger. I'll do it again any day.

 

[RickP]

PK is a great player but the guy that won the Norris had 60 percent o zone starts, didn't kill penalties, etc. That player also was able to get his shot on net. Not sure what happened but he used to be dangerous on the pp.

Subban today is a better player then the guy that won the Norris but 15 more stud d have changed me into the league since the, And no dman will ever compete for that trophy playing hard shut down minutes. If Weber was ever utilized like Subban was, or Burns is, he would have mulitiple Norris trophies.

About Subban on the PP, when he looked dangerous, he was used as a shooter and there was players setting him up for the one-timer. Now he's used as the set-up guy so he doesn't get many chances to go for a big one-timer. The PP is clicking though, and he's 2nd on the team in points. I would like if they used his one-timer more though, but as long as the PP is clicking, it's all that matters.

Here are 2 examples from when he was in MTL, and another example from last year with the Preds, where he switched position with Ellis and was in position to go for a one-timer. I think he still has it, he's just not used in a position to use the one-timer much.

 

[INDhockeyfan]

With Ellis out unless you want Emelin, Bitetto, or Irwin on the PP we have to use 4Fand 1D on one PP unit. Once Ellis is back you'll see 2D on each PP again and Subban will go back to his usual role.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

and one last point so it doesn't seem im just drunk rambling on emotions. the eye test and the numbers back my position. PK was a top 20 defenseman Corsi wise in the whole NHL last year. he is 4th best on our team alone in terms of defenseman. but he takes the tough spots, always starts in defensive zone, playing with emelin. I get it but he is the highest paid player on our team is coming in analytically at what 12th on the whole team? if you don't like advanced statistics that's fine but it's kind of like ignoring science. there may be some gray area but under neath there is a whole lot of truth. PK needs our best defenseman back paired with him in ekholm.

someone go detective gadget and pull up any posts where I'm overly critical of PK before this year. I've praised the guy more than most and defended him at times last year. I'm just calling it like i see it. he is average at best right now overall. makes you say wow every now and then but leaves you shaking your head more times than you say wow for a good reason.

You're not looking at the stats properly. He's having a great season again, you're literally ignoring all the stats and solely focusing on 1 number CF% which is effected by Emelin (Check WOWYS). Here are the key points to recognize:

1) His CA/60 (the defensive side of CF%) is the best of the top-4D.
2) His QoT is the worst of the top-4D by far, while his QoC is the 2nd hardest.
3) Least offensive zone starts, 2nd most defensive starts among the top-4D.
4) The numbers among the top-4D are the same as always (Josi has god-like offensive numbers but below-average or average defensive numbers, Ekholm is a two-way beast) except for Subban's CF/60 because of the addition of Emelin (Emelin has a -12 CF/60). When Ellis comes back, I would love to have a RHD-RHD pairing of Ellis-Subban if possible because Ekholm-Josi complement each other really well (best DFD with the best OFD on the team, while Subban's the best balanced D goes with a great balanced D Ellis).
5) Subban's adjusted numbers (adjusted takes into considering certain context pieces such as zone starts) are just as good as last year.

 

[Price is Wright]

Subban has done his usual amount of "boneheaded" plays or "too cute" plays, which people magnify and focus on more than his actual numbers.

Seriously, I watch "safe" players make much bigger mistakes every night but people will write them off as just a losing battle in the corner or a bad pass or they just got caught by a player. When in reality, they never should have allowed the play to go into the corner, it's the same pass they make on a regular basis, or they clearly allowed the opposing player to cut their lane down and pin them. But those aren't so visible as the hand full of Subban silly plays. So those guys get to be called warriors and Subban gets criticism.

 

[triggrman]

And you guys are always here to remind us that Subban should never be criticized, ever.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

You're not looking at the stats properly. He's having a great season again, you're literally ignoring all the stats and solely focusing on 1 number CF% which is effected by Emelin (Check WOWYS). Here are the key points to recognize:

1) His CA/60 (the defensive side of CF%) is the best of the top-4D.
2) His QoT is the worst of the top-4D by far, while his QoC is the 2nd hardest.
3) Least offensive zone starts, 2nd most defensive starts among the top-4D.
4) The numbers among the top-4D are the same as always (Josi has god-like offensive numbers but below-average or average defensive numbers, Ekholm is a two-way beast) except for Subban's CF/60 because of the addition of Emelin (Emelin has a -12 CF/60). When Ellis comes back, I would love to have a RHD-RHD pairing of Ellis-Subban if possible because Ekholm-Josi complement each other really well (best DFD with the best OFD on the team, while Subban's the best balanced D goes with a great balanced D Ellis).
5) Subban's adjusted numbers (adjusted takes into considering certain context pieces such as zone starts) are just as good as last year.

i would reply to this by saying did you read my post? i acknowledged he starts with lower quality teammates than josi/ekholm. plays with garbage emelin and gets a lot of shifts in defensive zone. that said... he is the highest paid defenseman in the league and i expect more. he has been meh.

not to discredit your argument but you twisted everything to make subban look like an all star and everyone else sucks by the stats. we were 2 wins away from the cup and are a top 3 team in the league. none of his teammates are that bad. the defensive zone starts would be more of a hinderance. and you acknowledged his competition is 2nd out of defenseman and second out of defensive starts. let's not act like he just isn't put in a position to succeed. he's a good defenseman but he can't carry emelin. he needs ekholm back.

 

[LCPreds]

If salary is used as part of any argument then we might as well not even discuss Subban. By that metric, especially relative to the sweetheart deals of the rest of the top 4, he sucks.