All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread

[adurbin]

I'll admit, I've been frustrated with Subban's play, and his choices on the ice at times. That said, I'm going to reserve any further judgement until Ellis returns and the lines are shifted to their 'final' form. I will say that even given the fact that he's tied to an anchor named Emelin right now (it's a known fact that PK doesn't really care for the guy, which in and of itself is a knock against the chemistry on ice), he's managed to maintain even through some mistakes and bad play choices. What really stands out to me as a net positive for the team as a whole is his apparent desire to be the "pump-up" guy. He's always the last one off the ice after a game giving fist bumps, chest pumps, and that strange little dance he does with a couple of the players. He's the one that sits down to Ekky on the bench after Eks was completely denied a goal, and gets in his ear and starts pumping him up. THAT is the kind of guy you want in your locker room. THAT is the kind of guy you want on your bench. THAT is the kind of guy you want in your community. The net positive impact to the team and their morale goes far beyond just what happens when the puck is on the end of his stick. I'm happy he's a Pred.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

If salary is used as part of any argument then we might as well not even discuss Subban. By that metric, especially relative to the sweetheart deals of the rest of the top 4, he sucks.

it's really a flawed argument on my part as it was really trading weber's contract so i would say we get the edge just by losing weber and his cap hit cause he is older.

I guess it's more of the ... who is the highest paid defenseman in the NHL? subban? ohhhh....

 

[RickP]

it's really a flawed argument on my part as it was really trading weber's contract so i would say we get the edge just by losing weber and his cap hit cause he is older.

I guess it's more of the ... who is the highest paid defenseman in the NHL? subban? ohhhh....

If that can make you feel better about his salary, just think about all the money he gives to charity, the fact he pays people to organize charity events, and other stuff, both in Nashville and MTL etc... He at least puts his 9M to good use.

And the future highest paid defenseman (Karlsson) is horrible this season, according to Sens fans. So it happens.

 

[NoNecksCurse]

If that can make you feel better about his salary, just think about all the money he gives to charity, the fact he pays people to organize charity events, and other stuff, both in Nashville and MTL etc... He at least puts his 9M to good use.

And the future highest paid defenseman (Karlsson) is horrible this season, according to Sens fans. So it happens.

EK and doughty are gonna get paid!

 

[Price is Wright]

EK and doughty are gonna get paid!

Open market Karlsson is an $11M per year player. Maybe more. Look at the Devils right now with Clowe coming off the LTIR cap in the summer and not having to worry about Butcher until 2020 or Hirschier until 2021. They already have $7.7M with cap space. Add Karlsson? Scary.

 

[Scoresberg]

Would love to see Devs get Karlsson. But I think Ottawa will pony up and pay the man. The Duchene acquire was a "we're serious" message to EK even though things have gone south since then for the Sens.

 

[King Weber]

Open market Karlsson is an $11M per year player. Maybe more. Look at the Devils right now with Clowe coming off the LTIR cap in the summer and not having to worry about Butcher until 2020 or Hirschier until 2021. They already have $7.7M with cap space. Add Karlsson? Scary.

Plus they're already a really fun team to watch. Adding Karlsson would make them even more fun while fixing a HUGE hole on D.


Subban currently leading the vote for Central divisions captain for the All-Star game.

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

EK and doughty are gonna get paid!

It'll be nice when this happens, when those guys get more and a few other guys get the same kind of money as Subban. (Well, not nice if it's Josi).

 

[PunkRockLocke]

You guys are funny, criticizing PK because of his contract. Let's say you make $100k/yr; would you say no if your employer offered you $300k/yr? I highly doubt it. It's not PK's fault.

He's a damn good player and the Preds are lucky to have him.

I agree he can be frustrating to watch sometimes, and he's not your best dman (Josi), but don't criticize him just because he makes too much money. David Poile is a wizard, getting the majority of your core under contract on cheap deals. So what's the problem?

Embrace the PK. You're lucky to have him.

 

[Adz]

You guys are funny, criticizing PK because of his contract. Let's say you make $100k/yr; would you say no if your employer offered you $300k/yr? I highly doubt it. It's not PK's fault.

He's a damn good player and the Preds are lucky to have him.

I agree he can be frustrating to watch sometimes, and he's not your best dman (Josi), but don't criticize him just because he makes too much money. David Poile is a wizard, getting the majority of your core under contract on cheap deals. So what's the problem?

Embrace the PK. You're lucky to have him.

It's not just PK. We criticized Joey and Peks, too. It goes all the way back to the early days when our best player was earning $2 million! We expect players to earn their pay, whatever it is and whether it was awarded by Nashville or acquired. We know he's a great guy and overall a great player, but when you grandstand a little, lose the puck, and your team gets scored on as a result you're going to get called out. It's not EARNING that $9m.

 

[drwpreds]

It's not just PK. We criticized Joey and Peks, too. It goes all the way back to the early days when our best player was earning $2 million! We expect players to earn their pay, whatever it is and whether it was awarded by Nashville or acquired. We know he's a great guy and overall a great player, but when you grandstand a little, lose the puck, and your team gets scored on as a result you're going to get called out. It's not EARNING that $9m.

Except that Subban gets 10 times the criticism that Johansen, Pekka, or anyone else does. But I guess its justified because he makes 9M......

I have said this many times, but the scrutiny and criticism he gets is fascinating and will make a great 30 for 30 documentary someday.

I guess I am in the minority but I am 100% satisfied with his play since he got healthy last year.....

 

[Soundgarden]

You guys are funny, criticizing PK because of his contract. Let's say you make $100k/yr; would you say no if your employer offered you $300k/yr? I highly doubt it. It's not PK's fault.

He's a damn good player and the Preds are lucky to have him.

I agree he can be frustrating to watch sometimes, and he's not your best dman (Josi), but don't criticize him just because he makes too much money. David Poile is a wizard, getting the majority of your core under contract on cheap deals. So what's the problem?

Embrace the PK. You're lucky to have him.

I love the guy, but we aren't criticizing him just because he makes $9 mil, we're criticizing him because he leads the team in giveaways, averaging more than 1 per game, and isn't playing like a $9mil player.

He shouldn't be giving up the puck at the blue line on the power play this much if he were as good as Montreal fans said he was.

As for other players, I definitely feel like they get criticisms. Johansen started the season off badly and got called out for it until he heated up with Turris coming over. Rinne has gotten a ton of flak over the years too, it's not just a Subban thing, it's a player that should be held to a high standard thing.

 

[RickP]

Every player make mistakes, especially the best players, because they always have the puck. Subban might have a tendancy to make more mistakes from time to time. But he will usually make big plays that compensate for those mistakes.

The only thing is, this year, he's used with Emelin, and he starts 64% of his shifts in the defensive zone, very often with the 3rd or 4th line. So he's not put in a situation where he can compensate for those mistakes as much as he used to. That's ok, he's doing a great job in his role IMO, and the team is winning. But expecting Subban to be a 9M Dman, the way he's used this year, is not realistic IMO.

 

[Soundgarden]

Every player make mistakes, especially the best players, because they always have the puck. Subban might have a tendancy to make more mistakes from time to time. But he will usually make big plays that compensate for those mistakes.

The only thing is, this year, he's used with Emelin, and he starts 64% of his shifts in the defensive zone, very often with the 3rd or 4th line. So he's not put in a situation where he can compensate for those mistakes as much as he used to. That's ok, he's doing a great job in his role IMO, and the team is winning. But expecting Subban to be a 9M Dman, the way he's used this year, is not realistic IMO.

I'm really excited for Ellis coming back.

 

[Adz]

Except that Subban gets 10 times the criticism that Johansen, Pekka, or anyone else does. But I guess its justified because he makes 9M......

I have said this many times, but the scrutiny and criticism he gets is fascinating and will make a great 30 for 30 documentary someday.

I guess I am in the minority but I am 100% satisfied with his play since he got healthy last year.....

He is 10x more the big personality too. That and $9 million gets you 20x more scrutiny than player who makes $3million and goes by the humble hockey player script.

 

[Soundgarden]

He is 10x more the big personality too. That and $9 million gets you 20x more scrutiny than player who makes $3million and goes by the humble hockey player script.

Not to mention he was traded for Weber, that's going to put him under more scrutiny as well.

 

[triggrman]

I don't see this intense scrutiny that Subban is under he makes mistake people say he made a mistake, he makes a good play people say he made a good play. Just like they do with all of our players.

When we point out Josi's mistakes though there's not 50 people telling us we're too hard on Josi or unfair or whatever.

Subban is a risk taker, and it makes for some dynamic plays, it also leads to turnovers, we have to except that.

At the end of the day though, he makes us a far better team and gives us 2 of the league's best defensemen.

 

[hido]

The guys that sits behind me has moaned about Subban since game one of last season. He thinks that Subban should essentially steal the puck and score on every play and when he doesn't, I gotta hear it over and over again ("Overpaid," "I don't see what the big deal is," etc.) And this guy is a season ticket holder and has been for awhile. A week or so ago I finally turned around and said:

"Bob (not his name), remember that time we made it all the way to the SCF? And Subban was highly instrumental in the shut down of our opponents top line in each series? Like, that was his job? That was kind of awesome because he was doing exactly what he was supposed to do, especially in the playoffs. He's plays defense. Quite well, apparently."

Look, I also get sick of Subban's crappy one-timers and the turnovers but we are also doing pretty well this season without Ellis. Is he worth it? Well, if Poile thinks so then I will defer to him. He seems to know a lot about hockey.

 

[drwpreds]

He is 10x more the big personality too. That and $9 million gets you 20x more scrutiny than player who makes $3million and goes by the humble hockey player script.

Again with the 9M??? I seriously do not understand why people are obsessed with that. I never, ever think about a guy's salary when I am watching a game.

And your personality comment is what drives me up the wall when it comes to PK. So if a guy has the audacity to have a personality and actually have fun playing a sport that means he opens himself up to more criticism than if he was like 99% of the rest of the pro athletes in the world are??? Sadly, that is 100% true in today's world for whatever reason. I absolutely LOVE that he isn't afraid to show some flair and personality. Hockey needs MORE guys like that, not less.

Subban is and always will be a high risk, high reward type player. And I have no problem with that. The rewards for outweigh the risks. I would say it is working pretty well for the Nashville Predators the past year....

 

[NSH615]

Again with the 9M??? I seriously do not understand why people are obsessed with that. I never, ever think about a guy's salary when I am watching a game.

Agree. The only time salary matters IMO is when the player in question isn't playing to that level of salary AND it prevents us from signing/re-signing someone key.

And your personality comment is what drives me up the wall when it comes to PK. So if a guy has the audacity to have a personality and actually have fun playing a sport that means he opens himself up to more criticism than if he was like 99% of the rest of the pro athletes in the world are??? Sadly, that is 100% true in today's world for whatever reason. I absolutely LOVE that he isn't afraid to show some flair and personality. Hockey needs MORE guys like that, not less.

Subban is and always will be a high risk, high reward type player. And I have no problem with that. The rewards for outweigh the risks. I would say it is working pretty well for the Nashville Predators the past year....

It's not this, but by him being that way, he has a bigger following which drives that. Any celebrity is that way. Anything an A-lister does is covered 100x more than something a D-lister does.

 

[Adz]

Again with the 9M??? I seriously do not understand why people are obsessed with that. I never, ever think about a guy's salary when I am watching a game.

And your personality comment is what drives me up the wall when it comes to PK.

To point out that he is a personality is not suggesting that it should not be, just that it is. I love PK's flair, love the posts and the pictures and singing at Tootsies, love the charitable endeavors. That personality is the main reason I knew who he was 4 years before we got him. I think Nashville is the perfect place for him.

If a guy is making the salary that deems him a 3rd line pairing guy or a 7th D he's going to get some grief, but the expectations aren't as high. While I don't sit there during the game and calculate "X makes $xm, I should get these things in return" I do expect the very best play from our highest paid personnel all the time. Don't always get it but it's what I want. I also expect 100% effort every shift from every player but there are lapses--they also annoy me.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

i would reply to this by saying did you read my post? i acknowledged he starts with lower quality teammates than josi/ekholm. plays with garbage emelin and gets a lot of shifts in defensive zone. that said... he is the highest paid defenseman in the league and i expect more. he has been meh.

not to discredit your argument but you twisted everything to make subban look like an all star and everyone else sucks by the stats. we were 2 wins away from the cup and are a top 3 team in the league. none of his teammates are that bad. the defensive zone starts would be more of a hinderance. and you acknowledged his competition is 2nd out of defenseman and second out of defensive starts. let's not act like he just isn't put in a position to succeed. he's a good defenseman but he can't carry emelin. he needs ekholm back.

When did I twist everything?? I never put anyone down other than Emelin, rightfully so, nor am I manipulating the stats? I agree with you that he does not play to the level of the highest paid D in the league. But I thought we were over the fact that he's overpaid. He gets the hardest work out of the top-4 (Emelin gets the hardest but plays much less TOI) and puts up the top numbers (Pts, CF%, xGF%, etc) that we want, just because he isn't as `flashy` as a Karlsson or Josi doesn't mean he's not impacting the game just as much.

Gona rebutle to the points you made:
1) Yes his competition is 2nd out of D and 2nd out of D-starts, but guess who has 1st in both? Emelin I honestly don't know why Lavy is doing this, but it's `working` for now. Why would he not put Ekholm-Josi or Ekholm-Subban for the heavy-lifting, and leave Emelin to tag along on the other pair away from the heavy lifting? Ekholm is by the best defensive D but isn't on the shut-down pair, makes no sense to me.

2) I never said any of his teammates are bad, don't know where you got that from. It's all relative (I.e Bonino is `bad` compared to Crosby, Hartnell is `bad` compared to Tarasenko, etc). I'll play along though. If none of his teammates were `bad`, we'd be completely fine with our 3rd and 4th lines matched up against other teams 1st and 2nd lines. This applies to any team. So if you choose to use plain old CF% (which you did) to judge a player, then you must look at QoT which is a HUGE factor for CF%.

 

[Mrb1p]

How has Subban been lately?

 

[RickP]

How has Subban been lately?

Considering his usage, he's been pretty solid defensively. A few mistakes here and there, like everybody else, but overall pretty solid I would say. He also made a few defensive plays that lead to goals for the Preds, but it didn't show up on the scoresheet.

Offensively though, you can tell Subban kinda lost his confidence IMO. He's often hesitant with his shot and when he uses it, it's not as good as it used to be. Could just be a confidence thing like I said. He would need a big 3-point night or something like that.

I'm curious to watch him play with Ekholm again, and have more offensive zone starts. That should help Subban's offensive play (and Ekholm is a much more stable partner than Emelin, it goes without saying, although Emelin has been pretty decent).

 

[Porter Stoutheart]

Again with the 9M??? I seriously do not understand why people are obsessed with that. I never, ever think about a guy's salary when I am watching a game.

I always think about a player's salary. Maybe it comes from being a longstanding FHL GM who has to deal with the salary cap, I don't know. The Preds are absolutely BLESSED with some of the bargain deals they have on their payroll, so Subban's salary has no impact whatsoever on the Preds. But in different circumstances, it could be a huge issue. Some markets would be tearing him to shreds on the basis of that contract. Subban is my favourite player, maybe ever, so I'm glad we're in a situation where that's a non-issue. But I can totally imagine scenarios where it would have become a focal point of fan and messageboard dissension. We're lucky/Poile is good so yay, we don't have to think about it. Yet.