Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

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Mikos87

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Mar 19, 2002
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Sutter's system is the same as Torts circa 2012. 5 man controlled exits.

Lots of board work and cycling. He doesn't use the stretch pass, he doesn't let his defense counter transition a rush at full speed if their name isn't Doughty, and he doesn't retreat with the puck.

I think if Sutter makes two adjustments, counter transition + retreat to reset a zone entry... then he's going to generate a little more offense.

Sutter's whole thing is pandering to the goalie.

Gallant too. It's why FLA had a good year without the corsi wannabes taking over this past year.

What Sutter does in the D-Zone is to make his goalie's life easy. But you need a Tarasenko, or a guy that can score at anytime with a coach like that to really win thes days.

But he's lead some weak teams to the finals and championships (look at the seeds). He knows how to get the max out of a guy. And has no problems getting in a guys face.

What do you think happens to Kreider after his emo outings under AV? Nothing. Same icetime.

Under Sutter... that guy would kick him on the bench after every low effort shift.

Actually Sutter is know for that. A guy gives a low effort on a shift, he'll stand behind him on the bench right after.

He's literally kicked guys in the ass on the bench. That's a Sutter love tap. True story, he's done this many times.

The media scrums with him are awesome. It's like Rocky Balboa talking after a punch drunk battle.

Rangers should hire him on a retainer to give AV a proverbial kick in the ass.
 

Inferno

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Nov 27, 2005
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Sutter kills offense, but I'd love to mimic their defensive zone structure. Kind of a hybrid between them and Nashville: always plugging passing lanes and stifling attempts, while also pushing the pace and moving up the ice in a 5-man unit.

Looking up the numbers to see if youre right.

Head coach of the Blackhawks from 92-93 till 94-95
offensive ranks..
19th, 19th, 7th

Then San Jose from 97-98 till 2001-2002 (he was fired in the middle of the 02-03 season, not fair to use that season)

Offensive ranks...
18, 21, 16, 17

Calgary from 02-03 till 05-06...
27, 19, 27

Kings from 11-12 till last season...
29, 10, 26, 18, 14, 25

So I'd say youre probably more right than wrong in that he "kills offense"..but its not like his teams are perpetually at the bottom of the league...but they definitely are more skewed towards the bottom 3rd than the top 3rd..thats for sure.

Looking at his teams now defensively, here are their ranks...

1, 5, 1, 14, 5, 13, 4, 9, 18, 3, 1, 2, 8, 1, 4, 3, 6

Its unquestionably that his teams just flat out doesnt give up a ton of goals...he's only been in the bottom half of the league once as a head coach in terms of GA/GP in his 17 full seasons as a head coach...thats just nuts.

Best defensive team 4 times...top 5 11 times...

say what you want, but his teams just dont give up goals..and its not about his goaltending.

Here are the Rangers ranks in GA/GP since the lockout (from most recent to oldest)

AV: 13, 15, 3, 4,
Torts: 4, 3, 5, 10 (Part Renney)
Renney: 6, 4, 9, 4


The only times theyve been out of the top 10 in the league have been the last 2 years...with AV at the helm.

You can make your arguments about Henrik slowing down, and thats fine..but boy oh boy these number sure seem to pass the eye test...where this team just flat out doesnt know how to play defense whatsoever.
 

Mac n Gs

Gorton plz
Jan 17, 2014
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Looking up the numbers to see if youre right.

Head coach of the Blackhawks from 92-93 till 94-95
offensive ranks..
19th, 19th, 7th

Then San Jose from 97-98 till 2001-2002 (he was fired in the middle of the 02-03 season, not fair to use that season)

Offensive ranks...
18, 21, 16, 17

Calgary from 02-03 till 05-06...
27, 19, 27

Kings from 11-12 till last season...
29, 10, 26, 18, 14, 25

So I'd say youre probably more right than wrong in that he "kills offense"..but its not like his teams are perpetually at the bottom of the league...but they definitely are more skewed towards the bottom 3rd than the top 3rd..thats for sure.

Looking at his teams now defensively, here are their ranks...

1, 5, 1, 14, 5, 13, 4, 9, 18, 3, 1, 2, 8, 1, 4, 3, 6

Its unquestionably that his teams just flat out doesnt give up a ton of goals...he's only been in the bottom half of the league once as a head coach in terms of GA/GP in his 17 full seasons as a head coach...thats just nuts.

Best defensive team 4 times...top 5 11 times...

say what you want, but his teams just dont give up goals..and its not about his goaltending.

Here are the Rangers ranks in GA/GP since the lockout (from most recent to oldest)

AV: 13, 15, 3, 4,
Torts: 4, 3, 5, 10 (Part Renney)
Renney: 6, 4, 9, 4


The only times theyve been out of the top 10 in the league have been the last 2 years...with AV at the helm.

You can make your arguments about Henrik slowing down, and thats fine..but boy oh boy these number sure seem to pass the eye test...where this team just flat out doesnt know how to play defense whatsoever.

Just imagine how much worse those would be without Hank.
 

ponytrekker

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Mar 28, 2013
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I could care less about boring. Winning is never boring. And they guy wins. His last 5 years the Kings did not qualify twice. In the other 3 they lost in the Conference Finals and won two Cups. Sign me up for that at any time. If you add on his time in Calgary, there is another year in which the team did not make it, one loss in the second round and another trip to the Finals. The guy has had more success than any Rangers coach.

I am not a Giants fan but those 86 - 90 Parcells teams weren't exactly a scream.
 

Thirty One

Safe is safe.
Dec 28, 2003
28,981
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Here are the Rangers ranks in GA/GP since the lockout (from most recent to oldest)

AV: 13, 15, 3, 4,
Torts: 4, 3, 5, 10 (Part Renney)
Renney: 6, 4, 9, 4
What does (Part Renney) mean? Torts had 4 full seasons.
 

ponytrekker

Registered User
Mar 28, 2013
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293
Sigh. Yes we had numerous leads against this team. And watching Brass is like watching your ex girlfriend front row, watching her new boyfriend get an Oscar.

tenor.gif
 

Mikos87

Registered User
Mar 19, 2002
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Looking up the numbers to see if youre right.

Head coach of the Blackhawks from 92-93 till 94-95
offensive ranks..
19th, 19th, 7th

Then San Jose from 97-98 till 2001-2002 (he was fired in the middle of the 02-03 season, not fair to use that season)

Offensive ranks...
18, 21, 16, 17

Calgary from 02-03 till 05-06...
27, 19, 27

Kings from 11-12 till last season...
29, 10, 26, 18, 14, 25

So I'd say youre probably more right than wrong in that he "kills offense"..but its not like his teams are perpetually at the bottom of the league...but they definitely are more skewed towards the bottom 3rd than the top 3rd..thats for sure.

Looking at his teams now defensively, here are their ranks...

1, 5, 1, 14, 5, 13, 4, 9, 18, 3, 1, 2, 8, 1, 4, 3, 6

Its unquestionably that his teams just flat out doesnt give up a ton of goals...he's only been in the bottom half of the league once as a head coach in terms of GA/GP in his 17 full seasons as a head coach...thats just nuts.

Best defensive team 4 times...top 5 11 times...

say what you want, but his teams just dont give up goals..and its not about his goaltending.

Here are the Rangers ranks in GA/GP since the lockout (from most recent to oldest)

AV: 13, 15, 3, 4,
Torts: 4, 3, 5, 10 (Part Renney)
Renney: 6, 4, 9, 4


The only times theyve been out of the top 10 in the league have been the last 2 years...with AV at the helm.

You can make your arguments about Henrik slowing down, and thats fine..but boy oh boy these number sure seem to pass the eye test...where this team just flat out doesnt know how to play defense whatsoever.

Now this is an analytics post that is really really written. Awesome work.

The drop-off with AV in the recent years... that really shows you the falling off of the cliff from the defense.

Structure and compete level. Speed, transition game. All issues.

With Sutter, I will say this, it's slower, and it's more methodical, but that system, plus speed = a lot of time spent in the other team's zone.

He stifles creativity. That's the issue with him, but I think who he is, would get a lot out of this team.

A change.

Hopefully he's chilling out for a bit.

Then replaces AV with like 25 games to go.

Players show up.
 

Fugazy

Brick by Brick
Jun 1, 2014
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New York
can you please provide some metrics to back up this ridiculous claim? Thanks in advance

His personnel and late game strategy decisions put the team in sub par situations to defend the 1 goal leads they had. You can't really defend playing Tanner Glass and Marc Staal in the last minute of a game while holding onto a 1 goal lead.
 

frozenrubber

Registered User
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Nov 27, 2005
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Brooklyn
Here are the Rangers ranks in GA/GP since the lockout (from most recent to oldest)

AV: 13, 15, 3, 4,
Torts: 4, 3, 5, 10 (Part Renney)
Renney: 6, 4, 9, 4


The only times theyve been out of the top 10 in the league have been the last 2 years...with AV at the helm.

You can make your arguments about Henrik slowing down, and thats fine..but boy oh boy these number sure seem to pass the eye test...where this team just flat out doesnt know how to play defense whatsoever.

But conveniently consistent with your view of AV, you neglect to mention GF/GP for the last 8 seasons

AV: 4, 7, 3, 19,
Torts: 15, 11, 16, 16

All of the AV years above are without a game breaking superstar offensive talent minus Nash's 14-15 season.

No one is denying that defensive issues and coverage need to be resolved, but more of a personnel issue above all else (watching Girardi and Staal decompose in front of our eyes).
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
AV's teams have had much more offensively talented players than Torts did.

And? Torts had a better defense (in certain aspects) and a prime Lundqvist.

Look, for people begging for someone like Sutter, I suggest you go back to some threads in 2013 and see what was being said about Torts. Stifling offense, boring hockey, blah blah blah. Thats what we want to go back to now?

One of the reasons I'd be against a coaching change is because almost any switch would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The defensive structure improves and the offense dries up under someone like Sutter.

The Rangers being primarily focused on improving the PERSONNEL on the blueline will go a long way this offseason
 

Bleed Ranger Blue

Registered User
Jul 18, 2006
19,799
1,811
What kind of a metric is used to measure good judgment?

Im not sure, thats why I asked, especially for a judgment as outlandish as that.

People trashed this team on paper from the beginning of the season. People said the Rangers would get throttled by Montreal.

Now, all of a sudden, the coach is the sole reason this team isn't in the cup final? Ridiculous.
 

silverfish

got perma'd
Jun 24, 2008
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under the bridge
Im not sure, thats why I asked, especially for a judgment as outlandish as that.

People trashed this team on paper from the beginning of the season. People said the Rangers would get throttled by Montreal.

Now, all of a sudden, the coach is the sole reason this team isn't in the cup final? Ridiculous.

The Rangers did get throttled by Montreal. Hank, on the other hand, did not.
 
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