Player Discussion Alain Vigneault Part VI

[Inferno]

Ha, never said that buckaroo, both the rosters and the coaches were hot garbage.

So what youre saying is it's possible to have a flawed roster...and a bad coach....heh....who knew.....buckaroo.

 

[Bluenote13]

So what youre saying is it's possible to have a flawed roster...and a bad coach....heh....who knew.....buckaroo.

Back to the original point, lots of the piling on is done by people who were upset torts was canned.

 

[True Blue]

Back to the original point, lots of the piling on is done by people who were upset torts was canned.

I do not think that is fair. Yes, there are people that were upset that Torts was fired. But to claim that they are piling on AV due to that reason is pure conjecture. The warts in his system became more and more apparent. His decision making, coaching strategy and personnel decisions making left it wide open for criticism.

 

[Fugazy]

I do not think that is fair. Yes, there are people that were upset that Torts was fired. But to claim that they are piling on AV due to that reason is pure conjecture. The warts in his system became more and more apparent. His decision making, coaching strategy and personnel decisions making left it wide open for criticism.

Especially with those mistakes happening multiple times in the playoffs.

 

[Bluenote13]

I do not think that is fair. Yes, there are people that were upset that Torts was fired. But to claim that they are piling on AV due to that reason is pure conjecture. The warts in his system became more and more apparent. His decision making, coaching strategy and personnel decisions making left it wide open for criticism.

Yes there's definitely criticism warranted, nobody saying it's not, I'm saying that the people that go the farthest are the people that never wanted torts to leave in the first place, kind of a coincidence huh?

 

[silverfish]

Yes there's definitely criticism warranted, nobody saying it's not, I'm saying that the people that go the farthest are the people that never wanted torts to leave in the first place, kind of a coincidence huh?

Think I hate AV as much as Inferno does, and I wanted Torts fired. I'm not sure if I wanted Renney fired, I don't remember, but I know I wanted Perry Pearn fired

To be fair, though, I wanted Lindy Ruff hired when he hired AV.

 

[Bluenote13]

Think I hate AV as much as Inferno does, and I wanted Torts fired. I'm not sure if I wanted Renney fired, I don't remember, but I know I wanted Perry Pearn fired

To be fair, though, I wanted Lindy Ruff hired when he hired AV.

Yeah I'm sure your hate is very high for him, but I also don't see you piling on as much as some of these guys. Definitely made some poor decisions but again these are not the decisions that are so out there that you say the guy should be locked up for, he's a pro coach making pro decisions. It's not like this team is the 72 Bruins, some people act like he went out of his way to destroy this team, that's just nonsense.

Believe me I don't want to have to be defending this guy like I said before I think it was a lazy hire to begin with, but he's done a good job with a roster that is hardly perfect. His times definitely running out though.

 

[silverfish]

Yeah I'm sure your hate is very high for him, but I also don't see you piling on as much as some of these guys. Definitely made some poor decisions but again these are not the decisions that are so out there that you say the guy should be locked up for, he's a pro coach making pro decisions. It's not like this team is the 72 Bruins, some people act like he went out of his way to destroy this team, that's just nonsense.

Believe me I don't want to have to be defending this guy like I said before I think it was a lazy hire to begin with, but he's done a good job with a roster that is hardly perfect. His times definitely running out though.

I'm not piling on him because everything that needs to be said is being said, or I've said before. He should be fired. But, considering some of the enabling he's gotten, it appears that my philosophy on the Rangers is far different than the discrepancy between the FO's philosophy and AV hockey. This, made clear, in that they're using AV hockey as a selling point to some of these NCAA UDFA's. And it appears to be working.

So. What do I know.

 

[True Blue]

Believe me I don't want to have to be defending this guy like I said before I think it was a lazy hire to begin with, but he's done a good job with a roster that is hardly perfect. His times definitely running out though.

Do not necessarily disagree with your viewpoint, though I will add that he has been bailed out by probably the greatest goalie in Rangers history. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Bluenote13]

Do not necessarily disagree with your viewpoint, though I will add that he has been bailed out by probably the greatest goalie in Rangers history. In my opinion, of course.

Agreed, but once you start delving into who has been helped by rosters it seems like no coaches really earned the cup because they've all had future hall-of-famers doing it for them on the ice. You have to remember it's been some great goaltenders in the league and still their teams have never even gotten out of the second round. Like Ola said earlier, the coach still puts in ton of man hours to prepare the team and put them into position so that Henrik can bail them out

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Yes. Ottawa didn't push back as much as Montreal.

How do you know that? Even if it's true it wouldn't prove what you said about physicality in this convo.

As you stated, how do you measure this? Stamkos was the third leading scorer on TB as an 18-year-old, behind Martin St. Louis, and Lecavalier. I would hardly call that a disappointment.

If you're not going to acknowledge what I'm referring to w the Stamkos point and boil it down to just scoring then I question your honesty in this discussion. Did I say anywhere that it was a total disappointment? No. That was not what I was saying at all. You made a strawman here, possibly accidentally.

In order to get top-end production from players, you must first have top-end talent. Aside from possibly Kreider, who on the roster is legit 1st line talent?

Whether it's accidental or on purpose you are creating strawmen. The point is about maximizing a players current talent level. Not magically turning Glass or Fast or Kreider or anyone into Crosby level producers.

Stepan hasn't regressed. The league is passing him by. There is far more emphasis on speed now then when Stepan entered the league. Yet, his stats this season are about as any season of his career.

Are you really only capable of referencing point production while ignoring everything else that could be related to this discussion? You really think I didn't think about Stepan's speed here? He regressed but his points are the same? How'd he regress then? Why is it that the coach has nothing to do with this?

The D has worsened because they have aged and broken down. How is it AV's fault that Staal and Girardi are broken? It's his fault for using them too much, but he can only play who management gives him. The fault for who the defensemen are is squarely on management.

Seriously, are you ****ing with me? Do you really think I didn't already consider these things? Did you think this would be a revalation? How do you not get my point, that despite their flaws due to age they could be put into more optimal positions or the "Flourishing" Skjei could have been utlizied better, especially in the midst of a career making performance.

You're right. I do think the effect of coaches is vastly overrated.

A statement you don't seem able to quantify or justify in anyway which makes me wonder why you're wasting your time here.

They can negatively impact like when AV overuses Staal, Holden and Girardi, but in the end, a coach is only as good as his personnel.

I wonder how AV would have done with this Ottawa crew? I'm sure his strategies and systems would have resulted in the exact same record and performance from the Sens . Coaches influence their personnel, I think in demonstrably significant ways. AV may have been much better suited to the NYR of 4 years ago and poorly suited to the NYR of today. Just like how Torts was well suited to the NYR of 2012-2013 but really poorly suited to Van when he took over.

If I was wrong, there would be a bunch of coaches who coach a team for their entire careers.

You honestly think this is the only thing that can show how you're wrong?

Again, I can wonder about a decision a coach makes, like AV's use of his D, and certainly that's a negative, and I'm no fan of his, but you have stated here that players don't develop under him, we agree he mishandles the D, and Henrik took a step backwards this year.

I stated no players develop under him? I have to go back then bc I don't think I ever said that or even hinted at that. If I did then that's my bad but I'm pretty sure you just strawman'd the **** outta this.

If all that is true, how did they get so close to being a top 4 team?

Getting "Close to being a top 4 team" is yet another arbitrary subjective statement that has no relevance to this discussion. EDIT: Actually this is perfect. My point isn't that AV is useless, it's that he's draggin a top 4 team down into merely being close to top 4. Your response is "Well he's close to the top 4" lol. In your head, why would "Being close to the top 4" be the measuring stick? I know some people thought the team would suck this year which is something I did not agree with.

By the way, if we presume you are right in everything you say, the fault lies not with AV. It lies with a management that gives an extension to an "inferior" coach.

Why wouldn't it lie with both?

 

[chosen]

How do you know that? Even if it's true it wouldn't prove what you said about physicality in this convo.


If you're not going to acknowledge what I'm referring to w the Stamkos point and boil it down to just scoring then I question your honesty in this discussion. Did I say anywhere that it was a total disappointment? No. That was not what I was saying at all. You made a strawman here, possibly accidentally.



Whether it's accidental or on purpose you are creating strawmen. The point is about maximizing a players current talent level. Not magically turning Glass or Fast or Kreider or anyone into Crosby level producers.



Are you really only capable of referencing point production while ignoring everything else that could be related to this discussion? You really think I didn't think about Stepan's speed here? He regressed but his points are the same? How'd he regress then? Why is it that the coach has nothing to do with this?



Seriously, are you ****ing with me? Do you really think I didn't already consider these things? Did you think this would be a revalation? How do you not get my point, that despite their flaws due to age they could be put into more optimal positions or the "Flourishing" Skjei could have been utlizied better, especially in the midst of a career making performance.



A statement you don't seem able to quantify or justify in anyway which makes me wonder why you're wasting your time here.



I wonder how AV would have done with this Ottawa crew? I'm sure his strategies and systems would have resulted in the exact same record and performance from the Sens . Coaches influence their personnel, I think in demonstrably significant ways. AV may have been much better suited to the NYR of 4 years ago and poorly suited to the NYR of today. Just like how Torts was well suited to the NYR of 2012-2013 but really poorly suited to Van when he took over.



You honestly think this is the only thing that can show how you're wrong?



I stated no players develop under him? I have to go back then bc I don't think I ever said that or even hinted at that. If I did then that's my bad but I'm pretty sure you just strawman'd the **** outta this.



Getting "Close to being a top 4 team" is yet another arbitrary subjective statement that has no relevance to this discussion. EDIT: Actually this is perfect. My point isn't that AV is useless, it's that he's draggin a top 4 team down into merely being close to top 4. Your response is "Well he's close to the top 4" lol. In your head, why would "Being close to the top 4" be the measuring stick? I know some people thought the team would suck this year which is something I did not agree with.




Why wouldn't it lie with both?

It seems pointless to go through every point because you're getting frustrated and accusing me of creating strawmen, so let's address one point of disagreement.

Originally Posted by shinchanyo
If so, why not? A bad coach can absolutely mess up a players development no matter how good. Does anyone remember Stamkos first year?

I replied that only Lecavalier and St.Louis outscored him when he was 18., so how did the coach negatively impact Stamkos in his first season, let alone his development? I think Stamkos has had an outstanding career. It's too bad he has had so many injuries.

What am I not understanding about your point on Stamkos?

 

[Ratelleitlikeitis]

Hank in shootout versus Canada in WC gold medal game. Hmmm predictions.

 

[Nickmo82]

Yeah I'm sure your hate is very high for him, but I also don't see you piling on as much as some of these guys. Definitely made some poor decisions but again these are not the decisions that are so out there that you say the guy should be locked up for, he's a pro coach making pro decisions. It's not like this team is the 72 Bruins, some people act like he went out of his way to destroy this team, that's just nonsense.

Believe me I don't want to have to be defending this guy like I said before I think it was a lazy hire to begin with, but he's done a good job with a roster that is hardly perfect. His times definitely running out though.

Exhibit 1: Tanner Glass.

Exhibit 2: Marc Staal.

Exhibit 3: Nick Holden.

He played them all far too much, in situations wayyyyyyyy beyond their capabilities EVERY damn game he could.

It's old news, but the fact that he even dressed Tanner Glass is "out there". Worst guy in the league (when he is in the league) and AV loves him.

 

[Bluenote13]

Exhibit 1: Tanner Glass.

Exhibit 2: Marc Staal.

Exhibit 3: Nick Holden.

He played them all far too much, in situations wayyyyyyyy beyond their capabilities EVERY damn game he could.

It's old news, but the fact that he even dressed Tanner Glass is "out there". Worst guy in the league (when he is in the league) and AV loves him.

I'm bored with it, I'm bored with it, aight ??

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I'm bored with it, I'm bored with it, aight ??

Can't wait until we get rid of Glass. The only thing keeping the Rangers from the Cup.

 

[Inferno]

Can't wait until we get rid of Glass. The only thing keeping the Rangers from the Cup.

yes..that is exactly the argument we've been making. Thanks for posting this. Great summation.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Can't wait until we get rid of Glass. The only thing keeping the Rangers from the Cup.

That was your takeaway from that guys post?

I don't know about you, but its pretty clear to me that overplaying Staal is a huge reason why the Rangers aren't still playing today.

 

[Bluenote13]

Can't wait until we get rid of Glass. The only thing keeping the Rangers from the Cup.

The way they make it sound, yes, it is like he's keeping us from amazing things !!

"Let's rant on and on for a full season about his usage of the only forward who hits on the regular and the most tenured Rangers on the team, surely no pro coach would ever stoop so low to keep us from winning it all in a landslide."

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

The way they make it sound, yes, it is like he's keeping us from amazing things !!

"Let's rant on and on for a full season about his usage of the only forward who hits on the regular and the most tenured Rangers on the team, surely no pro coach would ever stoop so low to keep us from winning it all in a landslide."

He's not the only forward who hits regularly, and his hits are almost never effective

 

[Bluenote13]

He's not the only forward who hits regularly, and his hits are almost never effective

Right <eye roll>

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Right <eye roll>

I'm sorry I don't think bumping someone after they've already passed the puck is effective. Good chat though

 

[Inferno]

I'm sorry I don't think bumping someone after they've already passed the puck is effective. Good chat though

dont forget to call him "buckaroo".

 

[Bluenote13]

I'm sorry I don't think bumping someone after they've already passed the puck is effective. Good chat though

Because you interjected with something that is not relevant.

No other player on this team plays that role, you can debate the effectiveness or the need for that role somewhere else. The point was the exaggeration.

 

[Bluenote13]

dont forget to call him "buckaroo".

Now that's your special name until you get it out of your system