Value of: Adam Fox

GAGLine

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People throwing around ufa money for a kid coming off his elc us hilarious, a couple teams have made that mistake with their cap but most teams use rfa status to prevent giving ufa value contracts, even to top young players.

It's smart cap management, if you only give those contracts to the right players. Fox is most definitely one of those players. He'll cost more on the front end, but less on the back end, than if we sign him to a 2 year bridge and then extend him long term.
 

bleedblue94

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Jun 8, 2004
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It's smart cap management, if you only give those contracts to the right players. Fox is most definitely one of those players. He'll cost more on the front end, but less on the back end, than if we sign him to a 2 year bridge and then extend him long term.
It's not a smart precedent to set for your franchise if you expect kakko and laf to become premiere players as well. You're becoming Toronto cap 2.0 with laf, fox, kk, panarin, and the potentially kreider and trouba if they haven't been moved if they are making mtop dollar.

If you only have fox as a young elite asset then maybe you get away with this, but you're kidding yourself if you think how they pay fox won't affect how laf and kk expect themselves to be handled if their play takes the expected jumps the next couple years. You have to stagger some of the big contracts, not stack them all together...
 

GAGLine

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It's not a smart precedent to set for your franchise if you expect kakko and laf to become premiere players as well. You're becoming Toronto cap 2.0 with laf, fox, kk, panarin, and the potentially kreider and trouba if they haven't been moved if they are making mtop dollar.

If you only have fox as a young elite asset then maybe you get away with this, but you're kidding yourself if you think how they pay fox won't affect how laf and kk expect themselves to be handled if their play takes the expected jumps the next couple years. You have to stagger some of the big contracts, not stack them all together...

The precedent is that if they earn it, they get paid. Kakko and Laf are nowhere close to earning it yet. Kakko has 1 year left on his ELC. The odds are very slim that he earns a big payday coming out of his ELC. So more realistically, if Kakko earns a big payday, it will be 3 years from now. You know, the same time when Fox would be in need of a huge payday if we bridge him. Would you rather pay them both big bucks at the same time? Or would you rather pay Fox more now so he'll cost less 3 years from now? Like I said, it's good cap management.
 

itsPLkielbasa

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He grew up a Ranger fan and pretty much forced his way to the Rangers. I see him signing a 5x5m or 8x6m. Trouba needs to go. We killed ourselves with that abomination of a contract.
 

bleedblue94

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The precedent is that if they earn it, they get paid. Kakko and Laf are nowhere close to earning it yet. Kakko has 1 year left on his ELC. The odds are very slim that he earns a big payday coming out of his ELC. So more realistically, if Kakko earns a big payday, it will be 3 years from now. You know, the same time when Fox would be in need of a huge payday if we bridge him. Would you rather pay them both big bucks at the same time? Or would you rather pay Fox more now so he'll cost less 3 years from now? Like I said, it's good cap management.
Rather bridge and pay them big bucks on the third contract once kreider and trouba can be deal with ntc moving to limited ones that give the team options.

In your scenario fox laf and kk all get big deals while panarin, ck and trouba still have deals. Add igor and zib if he is resigned or whoever you grab for a 1c (eichel at 10mil!?!) So you want to carry 8 players all getting prime deals at once? Huh? That's literally not an option, and IF you set the precedent to laf and kk that if they produce in their 3rd year of elc they will get a payday on their second contract by handing fox a big payday then it won't work.

The rangers have historically ALWAYS bridged players on their second contract. If they do that fox, kk, laf are on bridge and getting their big pay days right as the other large contracts on the team are expriing or their ntc clauses are changing to give the org flexibility with movement options.

The idea is to graduate players to bigger contracts as you have elc and cheaper guys coming in behind them, and also while other big deals are expiring and have them all progress together. Otherwise if you line everyone up to have big contracts at the same time you have no flexibility at all and eventually you won't be able to afford your next wave of good player like schneider, miller, nils, kratsov, 2021 pick if they pan out as well. It's the difference in managing the cap of a team that has a small influx of elite young talent and that's it or a team that wants to keep a stream of talent going over several years. NYR already has a few big contracts locked in for a number of years with ntc, so they need to go with the latter option.

I'm not picking on Toronto but look at them. Pissed away cost savings on rfa years and they have been struggling to afford the complementary pieces for a number of years now, and are going to be in a pinch to resign riley. Edm has been boxed into cap issues. Chicago also was years ago.

Give the 2-3 year bridge deals and then over pay players for the last couple rfa years as you buyout predominantly ufa years. This fantasy that you will get a huge discount on some ufa years by overpaying players more in all the rfa years with a long term second contract is counter productive anyways.
 
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UnSandvich

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He has 1 goal and 11 assists at even strength.......What games is he controlling ?.....I have seen him play. He is a nice little defensemen......a number one....sorry....Maybe on the Rags he is a one......But on teams with real number ones he is not.

Can you really "see" something if you're blind though?
 

FeatherHead

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Start with the world and then add. This kid isn’t going anywhere. By the time you arrived at a package the Rags would accept, you wouldn’t have a prospect pipeline left, and you probably wouldn’t be drafting again until 2038.
 

TGWL

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He has 1 goal and 11 assists at even strength.......What games is he controlling ?.....I have seen him play. He is a nice little defensemen......a number one....sorry....Maybe on the Rags he is a one......But on teams with real number ones he is not.
So how many teams have a real #1? Is your definition of a real number one a top 3-5 Dman only?
 

TGWL

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People throwing around ufa money for a kid coming off his elc is funny, a couple teams have made that mistake with their cap structure but most teams use rfa status to prevent giving ufa value contracts, even to top young players.
I don't think it'll take that much to sign Fox, and maybe he takes a shorter deal at first, but we are seeing a lot of RFA's hold out for their long term money. The "we can only pay UFA years this kinda' money" is slowly being phased out.
 

bleedblue94

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I don't think it'll take that much to sign Fox, and maybe he takes a shorter deal at first, but we are seeing a lot of RFA's hold out for their long term money. The "we can only pay UFA years this kinda' money" is slowly being phased out.
I think it is going to be phased back in with this flat cap, teams wont be able to afford dishing out ufa value to rfa players coming off elc. If they do than ufa players are going to get nothing bc there wont be any money left to spend with the flat cap. The only additional funds that the league will be able to pay players for at least four years is the allocated salary cap money available to Seattle to spend, that's it. Most of the teams that gave those deals to rfas justified it with the idea that the cap was going up and they were locking the guys in longer term so the ufa years they bought out didn't balloon. Right now you cant really do that and manage improve the rest of your team bc you just wont have money to spend. As I listed above, NYR may have the room to do it this summer with all the dead money coming off the cap, but if they do it this year they will have every high value rfa trying to get the same type of long term/high dollar deals on their second contracts and that just wont work. I already posted above what the issue would be on a larger scale with all the young kids they have coming in that they would potentially have to pay. It doesn't work
 

Riley 88

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So how many teams have a real #1? Is your definition of a real number one a top 3-5 Dman only?
some are aging so we wont count them......

Josi is a one
Seth Jones is a one
Hedman is a one...
Doughty is a one...
McAvoy has graduated and is a one.
Carlson is a one
Pietrangelo is a one
Hope that defines it a bit.....Not every team has one...Some are getting older now....Burns, Letang, Kieth, I just named like 11 guys that Adam Fox will never be as good as....I can name more but the point is made. If McAvoy becomes a Ranger tomorrow...Is Admam Fox still the best Dman on his team. The answer is no....That should settle it.
 

bernmeister

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some are aging so we wont count them......

Josi is a one
Seth Jones is a one
Hedman is a one...
Doughty is a one...
McAvoy has graduated and is a one.
Carlson is a one
Pietrangelo is a one
Hope that defines it a bit.....Not every team has one...Some are getting older now....Burns, Letang, Kieth, I just named like 11 guys that Adam Fox will never be as good as....I can name more but the point is made. If McAvoy becomes a Ranger tomorrow...Is Admam Fox still the best Dman on his team. The answer is no....That should settle it.

It does not.

Also, setting aside ? of who is better based on how good, there is legit issue of who is more valuable based on production vs cost.

Fox on elc at 23 is worth more than almost any of those guys at their current paycheck vs age = declining production.

Don't remember everyone's #s but besides McAvoy [close], Hedman is on sweetheart deal = underpaid. Rest of those guys not worth top $ that they deserved when they made a long term deal earlier.
 

GAGLine

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some are aging so we wont count them......

Josi is a one
Seth Jones is a one
Hedman is a one...
Doughty is a one...
McAvoy has graduated and is a one.
Carlson is a one
Pietrangelo is a one
Hope that defines it a bit.....Not every team has one...Some are getting older now....Burns, Letang, Kieth, I just named like 11 guys that Adam Fox will never be as good as....I can name more but the point is made. If McAvoy becomes a Ranger tomorrow...Is Admam Fox still the best Dman on his team. The answer is no....That should settle it.

Okay, so your guy good, our guy not. No bias there at all.

You used Fox's EVP as the reason he isn't a number 1. Fox has 11 EVP and McAvoy has 14 EVP. So I guess those 3 points are the difference between a #1 and a #2.

It's amazing how McAvoy can be a #1 while playing 2nd PP and getting less PK time than 4 other dmen on the team.
 

tomobson

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I think it is going to be phased back in with this flat cap, teams wont be able to afford dishing out ufa value to rfa players coming off elc. If they do than ufa players are going to get nothing bc there wont be any money left to spend with the flat cap. The only additional funds that the league will be able to pay players for at least four years is the allocated salary cap money available to Seattle to spend, that's it. Most of the teams that gave those deals to rfas justified it with the idea that the cap was going up and they were locking the guys in longer term so the ufa years they bought out didn't balloon. Right now you cant really do that and manage improve the rest of your team bc you just wont have money to spend. As I listed above, NYR may have the room to do it this summer with all the dead money coming off the cap, but if they do it this year they will have every high value rfa trying to get the same type of long term/high dollar deals on their second contracts and that just wont work. I already posted above what the issue would be on a larger scale with all the young kids they have coming in that they would potentially have to pay. It doesn't work
Nothing is going to stop the kids from getting paid if they all breakout like Fox has done. Fox is a franchise player and if Kakko and Laf breakout and become franchise players as well there is nothing the rangers are going to be able to do. I think you try and sign Fox to a long-term contract to see if you can get a discount but if the player trusts himself enough then he'll force a bridge and get paid more later. You'll just have to compete with other teams offering him more money and possibly losing Fox. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell what the right approach will be and you hope GMJG makes the right ones.
 

bleedblue94

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Jun 8, 2004
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Nothing is going to stop the kids from getting paid if they all breakout like Fox has done. Fox is a franchise player and if Kakko and Laf breakout and become franchise players as well there is nothing the rangers are going to be able to do. I think you try and sign Fox to a long-term contract to see if you can get a discount but if the player trusts himself enough then he'll force a bridge and get paid more later. You'll just have to compete with other teams offering him more money and possibly losing Fox. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell what the right approach will be and you hope GMJG makes the right ones.
The salary cap would stop it, and that is why you need to bridge these guys so that they are cashing in when the contracts of panarin, trouba, kreider are coming off or their ntc's drop to modified and they can be moved for more flexibility...
 

TGWL

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some are aging so we wont count them......

Josi is a one
Seth Jones is a one
Hedman is a one...
Doughty is a one...
McAvoy has graduated and is a one.
Carlson is a one
Pietrangelo is a one
Hope that defines it a bit.....Not every team has one...Some are getting older now....Burns, Letang, Kieth, I just named like 11 guys that Adam Fox will never be as good as....I can name more but the point is made. If McAvoy becomes a Ranger tomorrow...Is Admam Fox still the best Dman on his team. The answer is no....That should settle it.

I'm really not sure the answer is no. Fox has been that good this season. Fox wouldn't lose his PP time to McAvoy. If anything, he loses some PK time. He's still most likely paired with Lindgren on our top pair.

And naming guys he'll never be better than when those guys were all Norris winners/Norris finalist shouldn't make Fox not a current #1. Fox is playing better than those players right now. His current play is a #1 D. Does that mean he'll keep it up for the next 5 years? No idea, but he's currently playing as one of the better #1 D's in the league. Nobody is saying that Fox is better than Jones at his very best. Nobody is saying that Fox is a much better offense driver than Carlson at this very best. But this season, Fox has been better than most of them and has established himself as an elite #1 for this season.
 

tomobson

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Sep 16, 2008
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The salary cap would stop it, and that is why you need to bridge these guys so that they are cashing in when the contracts of panarin, trouba, kreider are coming off or their ntc's drop to modified and they can be moved for more flexibility...
I meant more that the rangers may have to trade one away to better balance the team cap wise than that the rangers will be able to pay the kids if they breakout to the level that Fox has shown...Laf and Kakko can stagnate and then you have bridged Fox for no reason and will have to pay him more next contract.
 

bleedblue94

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I meant more that the rangers may have to trade one away to better balance the team cap wise than that the rangers will be able to pay the kids if they breakout to the level that Fox has shown...Laf and Kakko can stagnate and then you have bridged Fox for no reason and will have to pay him more next contract.
If we were only looking at those three guys in a vacuum I would be more open to it, but it isn't just those three guys. As I said in an earlier post it is the difference between an org with a few pieces coming up that they just have to budget for those few pieces vs an org with a bunch of high ceiling youth in the pipeline that they need to be planning for. Regardless it will be fascinating to see how NYR plays this over the next few years. The other X factor is if they make a big trade (Eichel?) that changes a lot of the options and concerns
 

Riley 88

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Okay, so your guy good, our guy not. No bias there at all.

You used Fox's EVP as the reason he isn't a number 1. Fox has 11 EVP and McAvoy has 14 EVP. So I guess those 3 points are the difference between a #1 and a #2.

It's amazing how McAvoy can be a #1 while playing 2nd PP and getting less PK time than 4 other dmen on the team.
Would you trade Adam Fox tomorrow for Charlie McAvoy ??? Tomorrow even up ? Your answer please ?
 

lucaseider

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You think he’d take substantially less than Chabot? lol. Dream on.

Well, to be fair, he forced trades twice to play for the only team he was interested in, and the rangers know this. If you are only willing to play for one team you can't make big demands.
 

TGWL

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Would you trade Adam Fox tomorrow for Charlie McAvoy ??? Tomorrow even up ? Your answer please ?
It's never that cut and dry. How would Fox look playing in the Bruins system? How would McAvoy look playing in the Rangers system? You really never know. But to answer your question, I most likely would not do this trade.
 

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