Prospect Info: 68th Overall - Samu Salminen

[Its Always Sundstrom]

ya, just wondering…..will there be virgin sacrifices during the services of the church?

Nah, we’re trying to keep our 501c3 status.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

Possible late 1st rounder/2nd rounder in the 3rd round ? I'll take it. Could help soften taking Stillman that early but regardless this kid has size and can produce. Scouting reports say he needs to work on his skating , if he can become an average NHL skater than we got a player with 2nd line upside IMO. Maybe he can be like Sharangovich.

 

[oxman44]

watching a little more of him he seems like a great replacement for Maltsev in the prospect pool. Long reach, covers the ice well. maybe leans a little more goal scoring impact rather than defensive impact?

 

[devilsblood]

So in reading @LastWordArmy's I saw that Salminen put up 8 goals 15 assists 23 points in 7 games in the Finnish U-18 league in 19-20. That sounds great but how good is that for the league? His 3.29 ppg was the best in the league actually. Were there other NHL prospects in the league at that time? Yup, Ville Koivunen was in the league that season and put up 1.96 ppg. Koivunen was drafted 51st overall this past season.

This season in the U-20 Samu again outpaced Koivunen 1.53 ppg vs 1.29.

Samu also scored a goal per game in the u-18 wjc going 7-2-9 in 7 games while Koivunen notched 4-6-10.

Not a huge spread in draft position as Salminen went 68th, but just looking at points Devils got the more productive player.

Salminen is a center too, while Koivunen is a winger.

Sounds like he needs work on his skating? As someone mentioned above college is a great place to work on fundamentals like that.

Count me in as a fan of this pick.

 

[Lou is God]

If this kid improves his skating, he's a legit prospect. From what I read that's the only thing that held him back from getting taken in the first round.

 

[devilsblood]

If this kid improves his skating, he's a legit prospect. From what I read that's the only thing that held him back from getting taken in the first round.

I don't want to say it's unimportant but I wonder if it's not overplayed here. The kid produces.

But yeah, if he can improve that aspect he might prove to be a steal.

 

[Lou is God]

I don't want to say it's unimportant but I wonder if it's not overplayed here. The kid produces.

But yeah, if he can improve that aspect he might prove to be a steal.

I suspect that even with his talent alone he can play in the NHL, I just wonder if the skating is the difference between him being a top six forward or bottom six.

 

[Camille the Eel]

If this kid improves his skating, he's a legit prospect. From what I read that's the only thing that held him back from getting taken in the first round.

How exactly does on improve skating, I wonder. I mean a lot of it is set by the time you are 17. Just how does it work?

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

How exactly does on improve skating, I wonder. I mean a lot of it is set by the time you are 17. Just how does it work?

Paying skating coach's who specialize in it and will help try to correct technique to make him mor efficient. He doesn't have to be a burner , he just needs to get to the average ability speed and acceleration wise. If he can do that than his other skills will compensate big time.

 

[Guttersniped]

No, but one thing to keep in mind is that he would have played in the Finnish pro league this year, but because he committed to Denver he could only play in junior where he dominated.

He’s developed by Jokerit so his parent club is actually the one Finnish team in the KHL but yeah, he couldn’t play on a pro team and retain his NCAA eligibility. His 2019-20 stats in the U20 would have warranted a stint in a higher league.

It looks like he’s going to Denver in 2022-23, the thread on the main board said that was more about finishing up his schooling than development.

Maybe he would be better in the USHL or something then kicking the shit out of Liiga U20 in his D+1 year. I don’t know how competition levels compare here though.

 

[devilsblood]

How exactly does on improve skating, I wonder. I mean a lot of it is set by the time you are 17. Just how does it work?

Paying skating coach's who specialize in it and will help try to correct technique to make him mor efficient. He doesn't have to be a burner , he just needs to get to the average ability speed and acceleration wise. If he can do that than his other skills will compensate big time.

I def think a player, via a skating coach, can improve their skating. And a bad skater may have more room to improve then others, and that will certainly help a player get around the ice. But I also think fast skaters are born that way, as are slow skaters.

 

[RememberTheName]

I don't want to say it's unimportant but I wonder if it's not overplayed here. The kid produces.

But yeah, if he can improve that aspect he might prove to be a steal.

I don't want to exaggerate his skating, but it is really, really bad. It's not like Brandt Clarke where he had a little bit of an awkward stance but he was still a really good skater. Samu Salminen has a really awkward stance and is an overall bad skater. He skates very upright, his stride is quite choppy and short, he glides around a lot on the ice, and he has almost 0 explosiveness, acceleration, or top-end speed. With prospects having better and better skating seemingly every year, Salminen is no doubt one of the worst skaters I watched this past year, if not the worst (I crapped on Pastujov a whole lot this past year for his skating but it's still better than Salminen's). It needs a lot of work and can absolutely hold him out of the NHL if it doesn't see big improvements to at least become passable.

That being said, his style of play is based more or less around strong IQ rather than skating, but you at least need to be a passable skater to make it big, and Salminen just doesn't have it yet. And if he does make it, I would be shocked if he was any more than a bottom 6 center, but he honestly doesn't even do many of the things you want to see out of a good 4th liner that well, so he'd probably have to improve a whole ton to become a 3rd line center. He's not really very physical and doesn't play up to his size, and he is also only an okay but inconsistent defensive player. He has a strong IQ, solid shot, and is really good at faceoffs, but that's about it.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but there's not a whole lot I love in Salminen. He's essentially Jaromir Pytlik, and really just take your choice between the two (I'd prefer Pytlik because he is much more projectable).

 

[Lou is God]

I def think a player, via a skating coach, can improve their skating. And a bad skater may have more room to improve then others, and that will certainly help a player get around the ice. But I also think fast skaters are born that way, as are slow skaters.

Just like running, either you run like the wind or you don't, but you can improve your technique and work hard on your legs and core to improve speed, mobility and quickness.

 

[RememberTheName]

I def think a player, via a skating coach, can improve their skating. And a bad skater may have more room to improve then others, and that will certainly help a player get around the ice. But I also think fast skaters are born that way, as are slow skaters.

Great post. Salminen is a weird case in terms of improvement. I think that I read that he had a big growth spurt recently and that has affected his skating a little bit, so a skating coach can probably help correct some of the issues that have arisen because of his sudden growth. But like you said, good skaters and bad skaters are really born that way. Last year, Jack Quinn was one of the big risers, and he had a huge growth spurt the year before, but his skating was still really really strong even with the sudden growth. So even though Salminen may have some corrections to do, I really don't know how much improvement to expect from him.

 

[Devils731]

Just like running, either you run like the wind or you don't, but you can improve your technique and work hard on your legs and core to improve speed, mobility and quickness.

And I suspect like running, there is a spectrum. If your quick twitch muscles are fast then you tend to tire more quickly and vice versa.

So if you can’t be fast due to slow quick twitch muscles then aim to be fast in the third period because you are the most durable.

 

[devilsblood]

Great post. Salminen is a weird case in terms of improvement. I think that I read that he had a big growth spurt recently and that has affected his skating a little bit, so a skating coach can probably help correct some of the issues that have arisen because of his sudden growth. But like you said, good skaters and bad skaters are really born that way. Last year, Jack Quinn was one of the big risers, and he had a huge growth spurt the year before, but his skating was still really really strong even with the sudden growth. So even though Salminen may have some corrections to do, I really don't know how much improvement to expect from him.

I had heard about this growth spurt, and I do find that as a cause for some optimism. Yes Quinn's skating was able to maintain through the growth spurt, but that doesn't mean that goes for all players.

Though it may mean he has a longer timeline. Which is fine imo and may make another year in Finland a good thing, extend the timeline.

I did watch a little of the shift by shift, and at first thought #10 was Samu, and I thought, this kid skates pretty well, but alas he was #18, and I admit #18 didn't look great.

 

[Lou is God]

Salminen has committed to play for the University of Denver in 2022-23, so he'll continue his development in North America with a chance to live in his new adopted country as well as adapting to the smaller ice surface and college game for his own personal development.

"Skating is the most important thing," he said of the areas of his game he wants to work on over the next few years. "My start and stop play, the physical game, skating skills, my leg strength. Skating and defense are the most important things that I have to work on."

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Skating technique is very difficult to fix and just gets more and more difficult the older a player gets. A great skating coach can teach and show you perfect technique but it’s very difficult to do it enough and become so good at it that it becomes naturally how you skate.
For a kid that’s been skating a certain way for 15+ years it’s unlikely(not impossible) that they will be able to significantly change and improve their skating technique.
They can always work to get faster and stronger in the gym but even that only goes so far.

 

[Blackjack]

I'll go ahead and plant my flag here on skating. I have no credentials or relevant experience besides being a self-taught skater that started playing hockey in his early 20s and generally being one of the fastest guys in open hockey or on club teams.

I think that skating is actually very similar to running: it's a function of natural ability and athleticism. I've never believed that "skating technique" mattered that much, aside from when players are very young or new skaters. I think that as you skate hundreds of miles around the ice when you practice and play games, your brain figures out the most efficient way to get around the ice.

Essentially it comes down to leg strength and explosiveness, body weight, relative limb lengths, and motor unit efficiency.

Motor unit efficiency is easy, if you skate a lot, it goes up quickly and then plateaus. Obviously nothing can be done about how long your legs are compared to your trunk. Explosiveness is not generally trainable, leg strength and body weight are the two factors within a player's control.

18 year olds are still physically developing, and as he matures, I'd expect Salminen's skating to improve. Though I'd say it's unlikely it ever reaches the level of an average NHLer. If his other tools are good enough, and it sounds like they might be, I think there's a good chance his skating will improve enough to not hold him back.

 

[Blackjack]

This is also why I never gave the slightest shit about Brandt Clarke's skating "issues".

 

[Guttersniped]

Skating technique is very difficult to fix and just gets more and more difficult the older a player gets. A great skating coach can teach and show you perfect technique but it’s very difficult to do it enough and become so good at it that it becomes naturally how you skate.
For a kid that’s been skating a certain way for 15+ years it’s unlikely(not impossible) that they will be able to significantly change and improve their skating technique.
They can always work to get faster and stronger in the gym but even that only goes so far.

There are a numerous NHL players and stars who famously improved their skating though.

Mark Stone went 178th in 2010 specifically because of his subpar skating (well, he only played 39 games his draft year due to a broken thumb which didn’t help).

”He reached out to us after being drafted. Randy (Lee, current assistant general manager, then Senators director of hockey operations and player development) and I spoke about what was the best approach for Mark,” explained former long-time team skating consultant Marc Power. “We developed a plan. Mark helped with that plan. He sent me videos from the Wheat Kings. I would analyze them, send him information back. He would start doing the work.”

Crediting Stone’s willingness to study and practice skating technique in making him the player he is today, Power told the Sporting News, “When you work with a player, it’s a two-way street. This is an athlete who wanted to make it. One hundred per cent of the credit goes to Mark Stone. He wanted to become a better skater so he could do what does naturally. He’s a great shooter. Has an amazing stick. His Hockey IQ is off the charts. His biggest road block was, could he skate well enough to play in the NHL?”
…
“We did a lot of off-ice skating simulations to get his body more efficient. He worked on his one-foot stability, teaching him where the power comes from underneath his body,” Power added. “Basically for Mark, we had to get his posture in line a little bit, making him fit in his hockey stance better, getting more pressure on his skate blades. Teaching him how to glide. Also making his arms and legs move in sync. We taught him explosive starts. Tweaks like that allowed Mark to get up and down the ice more efficiently. But it was repetition on skating strides and long strides.

'Tremendous competitor' Mark Stone overcame skating woes to become NHL star with Senators

Ryan O’Reilly was undervalued at the draft solely because of concerns over his skating, scouts were basically in love with every other aspect of him and he also pretty much immediately improved his skating after being drafted through a lot of hard work.

Bo Horvat went from middle six center prospect to top six center to 1C by improving his skating in his first few seasons. (And this was covered a ton in the media because Canada.)

There are a ton of examples, unless you’re referring to a different phenomenon. Obviously physiology plays a huge part and there’s not much a guy can do about that other than work out in a smart, productive way and discover nutrition (and hope for a late growth spurt I guess.) Some improvements are just training harder, Daisaitl is absolute beast who massively improved by applying himself to strength training after he physically matured, I don’t know if it was a technique thing per se.

I know a solid % of players are from pretty well to do families or might have some access to skating coaches through teams but not everyone has a ton those resources early on.

Also the realities of how much they need to work to take their game to the next level probably hits a prospect more post-draft. I’ve seen prospects who’ve improved their skating a lot more often then I’ve seen prospects who’ve improved their hockey IQ.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

There are a numerous NHL players and stars who famously improved their skating though.

Mark Stone went 178th in 2010 specifically because of his subpar skating (well, he only played 39 games his draft year due to a broken thumb which didn’t help).



'Tremendous competitor' Mark Stone overcame skating woes to become NHL star with Senators

Ryan O’Reilly was undervalued at the draft solely because of concerns over his skating, scouts were basically in love with every other aspect of him and he also pretty much immediately improved his skating after being drafted through a lot of hard work.

Bo Horvat went from middle six center prospect to top six center to 1C by improving his skating in his first few seasons. (And this was covered a ton in the media because Canada.)

There are a ton of examples, unless you’re referring to a different phenomenon. Obviously physiology plays a huge part and there’s not much a guy can do about that other than work out in a smart, productive way and discover nutrition (and hope for a late growth spurt I guess.) Some improvements are just training harder, Daisaitl is absolute beast who massively improved by applying himself to strength training after he physically matured, I don’t know if it was a technique thing per se.

I know a solid % of players are from pretty well to do families or might have some access to skating coaches through teams but not everyone has a ton those resources early on.

Also the realities of how much they need to work to take their game to the next level probably hits a prospect more post-draft. I’ve seen prospects who’ve improved their skating a lot more often then I’ve seen prospects who’ve improved their hockey IQ.

I said it’s not impossible but it is very hard and unlikely. People overate how easy it is and how often it happens.

Bo Horvat was not drafted 9th overall as a middle 6 center prospect nor is he really a number 1 center now. He is also an absolute specimen physically who is built like truck while being very fast. He works with a really good skating coach who has definitely helped improve his skating technique but there’s only so much she can do and change when he’s been skating a certain way for so long and I think his skating improvement is just as much from working in the gym.

Still none of those guys are really good skaters in the NHL and I think skating is something that scouts misjudge more often than people think.

With a really good skating coach and a ton of work it can be done but it’s a lot harder to noticeably improve skating than most people seem to think. There’s a lot more players out there that people said could be really good if they improved their skating than there is that actually improved it significantly and became good players.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

I'll go ahead and plant my flag here on skating. I have no credentials or relevant experience besides being a self-taught skater that started playing hockey in his early 20s and generally being one of the fastest guys in open hockey or on club teams.

I think that skating is actually very similar to running: it's a function of natural ability and athleticism. I've never believed that "skating technique" mattered that much, aside from when players are very young or new skaters. I think that as you skate hundreds of miles around the ice when you practice and play games, your brain figures out the most efficient way to get around the ice.

Essentially it comes down to leg strength and explosiveness, body weight, relative limb lengths, and motor unit efficiency.

Motor unit efficiency is easy, if you skate a lot, it goes up quickly and then plateaus. Obviously nothing can be done about how long your legs are compared to your trunk. Explosiveness is not generally trainable, leg strength and body weight are the two factors within a player's control.

18 year olds are still physically developing, and as he matures, I'd expect Salminen's skating to improve. Though I'd say it's unlikely it ever reaches the level of an average NHLer. If his other tools are good enough, and it sounds like they might be, I think there's a good chance his skating will improve enough to not hold him back.

I disagree with this based off my own personal experiences. Technique can make a huge difference. I was at one point a somewhat sloppy skater. Not noticeably worse than other players. I was very fast running and had quick feet on the ice. I started working with a really good skating instructor who was also coaching a Norris trophy winning defensemen at the time. There were so many things she looked at and the amount of things she tried to get me to change I can’t even count. Little things about exactly how you transfer your weight and angles. Things you would never think of. But it all made a huge difference and I became a much better skater and overall player. I know a lot of other people who had the same experience.

 

[PizzaAndPucks]

All he needs to do is get to NHL average for skating. It wont be easy but it is possible. John Tavares wasnt a great skater either and went 1st overall. He really improved his skating after his first 4 to 5 years in the NHL where it was much improved. Same goes with Leon Draisaitl , not thr best skater but worked on it at the NHL level. Big difference is they were both top 4 picks , regardless this kid wont be in the NHL till 3 to 4 years from now. I'm sure he has room to fix that part of his game.

 

[Guttersniped]

All he needs to do is get to NHL average for skating. It wont be easy but it is possible. John Tavares wasnt a great skater either and went 1st overall. He really improved his skating after his first 4 to 5 years in the NHL where it was much improved. Same goes with Leon Draisaitl , not thr best skater but worked on it at the NHL level. Big difference is they were both top 4 picks , regardless this kid wont be in the NHL till 3 to 4 years from now. I'm sure he has room to fix that part of his game.

Nolan Foote improved his skating, he was predicted to go in the 2nd rd mainly due to his skating issues (though he also missed time due to injury) and now public scouts are giving him the “NHL average skating” blessing that was being mildly withheld before the draft.

This isn’t debate club, I came up with a really famous cases but plenty of prospects have improved skaters because they physically matured, worked out more, developed their power skating as well as worked on their edge work and technique with high end coaches. These are athletic teenagers and skating does reward repetition and focus if you put the work in (particularly in a very smart, guided way). You can adjust technique (but obviously physiology limits things and ingrained habit is a thing).

Keeping up with NHL play is tough for a lot of reasons. The speed of the game, the brutal physicality, the lack of space, the need to process the game very quickly etc

And guys don’t make for a lot of reasons, there are very few select spots for each role. I think people claim too often that a dude would make if only his just skating was better, when could be their ability to process the game quickly or better, or they can’t handle the physicality* etc. (Not to say subpar skating doesn’t sink large portion of players.)

*and you don’t have to be fast to avoid hits, in 2019-20 Gusev had the 11th lowest Hits Taken/60 5v5 among players who played 100 minutes, 1.74 (22 hits in 66 games). Micheal Grabner was the lowest with 0.53, 4 hits taken in 46 games, if anyone was wondering. Goose was slow but wily.

Goose was tied for 22nd in Hits/60 5v5, 0.87 (11 hits in 66 games). Jonny Hockey was 1st with a bullet with 0.06, 1 hit in 70 games.

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