Speculation: 2022-2023 General Lightning Discussion III: The school bus is actually a garbage truck edition

[These Are The Days]

I already visited the alter. I’m getting out of office notifications

We’re doomed bro

Whelp, they did say to win or die on the mountain to where we were sent. They never veiled the fact that they also actively attempt to destroy us in return for every favor they grant and the most extreme caution should be used.

Some dork in Boston is probably playing Carcass on a loop right now

 

[Bartleby]

We just have the Canes next on our schedule is all

Doh!

 

[Byrddog]

This stretch is all on Cooper. His complete refusal to reestablish the libes that were successful at the first of the year and his man crush on No score Cirelli has evolved this roster to that has lost its confidence and swagger. JBB stepped on hie weenier at the trade deadline bringing in two redundant pieces instead of depth scoring. How he was sold on Jeanott is beyond me that’s what you get looking at one year of stats and to a point he did not get in Hagel the piece needed. But ohhhhh Hagel has a bunch of goal this year, well by osmosis many player on a line with Kuch and Point are going to inherit numbers. The defense is torn and collapses when behind. This has influenced Vasy into trying to do more than he should. It’s inevitable the Cup window closes but poor asset management in the front office and behind the bench deepens this.

 

[OffBy1]

This stretch is all on Cooper. His complete refusal to reestablish the libes that were successful at the first of the year and his man crush on No score Cirelli has evolved this roster to that has lost its confidence and swagger. JBB stepped on hie weenier at the trade deadline bringing in two redundant pieces instead of depth scoring. How he was sold on Jeanott is beyond me that’s what you get looking at one year of stats and to a point he did not get in Hagel the piece needed. But ohhhhh Hagel has a bunch of goal this year, well by osmosis many player on a line with Kuch and Point are going to inherit numbers. The defense is torn and collapses when behind. This has influenced Vasy into trying to do more than he should. It’s inevitable the Cup window closes but poor asset management in the front office and behind the bench deepens this.

You don't give Hagel much credit. He's a team leading +20 while Point and Kuch are +2 and 0. He's second in the league in takeaways with 85 while Kuch has 51 and Point has 47. He's second on the team in short handed minutes for forwards. He's a two time 20+ goal scorer. This year I'd say he's been an upgrade over Palat in every aspect except physical play.

 

[Felonious Python]

 

[Byrddog]

You don't give Hagel much credit. He's a team leading +20 while Point and Kuch are +2 and 0. He's second in the league in takeaways with 85 while Kuch has 51 and Point has 47. He's second on the team in short handed minutes for forwards. He's a two time 20+ goal scorer. This year I'd say he's been an upgrade over Palat in every aspect except physical play.

Yet in

You don't give Hagel much credit. He's a team leading +20 while Point and Kuch are +2 and 0. He's second in the league in takeaways with 85 while Kuch has 51 and Point has 47. He's second on the team in short handed minutes for forwards. He's a two time 20+ goal scorer. This year I'd say he's been an upgrade over Palat in every aspect except physical play.

Perhaps I do, however he still benifits from his linemates. When Stammer was moved up Hagels performance plummeted. That well could be the Cirelli effect. And while his takeaways are respectable he also has 46 giveaways. His faceoff% is in the 20’s. He is not strong on the puck and ends up on his butt far too much putting him behind the play. I don’t expect he is Point or Kuch as a playmaker he’s a finisher and has had a good bit of success but has missed so many opportunities that could have him above 40 goals now. I’m not saying he’s a bad player but has flaws. Flaws that will be costly in the playoff game. Any success this team has now is directly tied to this 1st line. Again this a self inflicted wound due to the lines Coop puts together. Until Paul is put back in the middle of Stammers line the pressure will remain on the Point line. Especially since D scoring has fallen off a cliff we are not in a position of just going out and coming back from a two or three goal deficit.

Let’s say it like this Hagel has more that he can give. And while he will have a career year in goals it’s the what ifs. Imagine McDavid only having 20 goals that’s the impact . I know that is an exaggeration but it’s the same feeling I get with Hagels game. He has been a much better pick up than what we got at this deadline.

Do is it that expect too much from him? I don’t know we knew what we had in Palat he was not a sniper but defensively better and Kuch and Point played different with him. Kuch is just a point monster and is as happy with asst’s or goals. Kuch had received criticism for passing too much this year, could it be that he has higher expectations for Hagel? That would make sense, if necessary Kuch can score the goals we all know that, but his goals are lower this year and I think it is due to his feeding
Hagel he feeds Point as well and as a center his finish ability far outpaces Hagel.

Hagel is a good player but more is needed out of his chances.

 

[Sky04]

Lol wtf Hagel going to score 30 goals and you're disappointed? I think it's your expectations that's the problem.

And Palat was ass defensively his last few years here, the only other forward with worst defensive zone turnovers was Coleman. Palat wasn't even pking anymore, Hagel doesn't do dumb shit in the defensive zone like Palat does and is an offensive pking threat.

 

[RussianGuyovich]

like i get that we have our rotating pariah for every downturn, but hagel? of all players?


there are some serious rose-colored glasses for ex-bolts. palat and gourde went for super long stretches during the season without registering a point

 

[Sky04]

"I just feel like Hagel could do more"

Meanwhile Hagel is on a 1.5M contract on pace for 65 points and you praise Palat who's on 6M contract pacing for less points than 6irelli this season.

In the last 4 years Palat, who played primarily with Point, Stamkos and Kucherov scored at a lower pace than Alex Killorn.

 

[LightningStrikes]

"I just feel like Hagel could do more"

Meanwhile Hagel is on a 1.5M contract on pace for 65 points and you praises Palat who's on 6M contract pacing for less points than 6irelli this season.

In the last 4 years Palat, who played primarily with Point, Stamkos and Kucherov scored at a lower pace than Alex Killorn.

Speaking of Killorn: that bum still hasn’t scored 30 goals in a season. I mean wtf.

 

[Sky04]

Speaking of Killorn: that bum still hasn’t scored 30 goals in a season. I mean wtf.

So you're saying... "you just feel like he could do more?"

 

[These Are The Days]

If Hagel does any more the guy is gonna make like $7 million per season

 

[The Gongshow]

If Hagel does any more the guy is gonna make like $7 million per season

This! I actually want him to chill out so his contract price can stop sky rocketing!

 

[OffBy1]

Yet in

Perhaps I do, however he still benifits from his linemates. When Stammer was moved up Hagels performance plummeted. That well could be the Cirelli effect. And while his takeaways are respectable he also has 46 giveaways. His faceoff% is in the 20’s. He is not strong on the puck and ends up on his butt far too much putting him behind the play. I don’t expect he is Point or Kuch as a playmaker he’s a finisher and has had a good bit of success but has missed so many opportunities that could have him above 40 goals now. I’m not saying he’s a bad player but has flaws. Flaws that will be costly in the playoff game. Any success this team has now is directly tied to this 1st line. Again this a self inflicted wound due to the lines Coop puts together. Until Paul is put back in the middle of Stammers line the pressure will remain on the Point line. Especially since D scoring has fallen off a cliff we are not in a position of just going out and coming back from a two or three goal deficit.

Let’s say it like this Hagel has more that he can give. And while he will have a career year in goals it’s the what ifs. Imagine McDavid only having 20 goals that’s the impact . I know that is an exaggeration but it’s the same feeling I get with Hagels game. He has been a much better pick up than what we got at this deadline.

Do is it that expect too much from him? I don’t know we knew what we had in Palat he was not a sniper but defensively better and Kuch and Point played different with him. Kuch is just a point monster and is as happy with asst’s or goals. Kuch had received criticism for passing too much this year, could it be that he has higher expectations for Hagel? That would make sense, if necessary Kuch can score the goals we all know that, but his goals are lower this year and I think it is due to his feeding
Hagel he feeds Point as well and as a center his finish ability far outpaces Hagel.

Hagel is a good player but more is needed out of his chances.

Hagel definitely benefits offensively from his linemates - most everyone in the NHL would benefit would too. Hagel has 42 giveaways - Kuch has 84! Point has 40. And you skipped right over the fact Hagel's +/- is so much better than the line mates he's riding. I'd say theirs would be worse without Hagel on their line. So he's actually good defensively, or at least he has been this year.

Palat was also stronger on the puck, I'll give you that. As someone else pointed out, Palat also benefitted from playing on our top lines as well.

I'm with you on Coop's lines, we need the Paul, Stammer, Killorn line back together for the rest of the season to have a prayer of two effective scoring lines in the playoffs.

But let's not make Hagel the scapegoat for Kuch's 84 giveaways and overpassing - that's not something that started this year, though it has gotten worse. We've probably been asking Kuch to do too much for too long and the need to compensate for talent leaving the team the last couple years has only increased the need.

 

[These Are The Days]

This! I actually want him to chill out so his contract price can stop sky rocketing!

He's adjusting for inflation

 

[LTIR Trickery]

This stretch is all on Cooper. His complete refusal to reestablish the libes that were successful at the first of the year and his man crush on No score Cirelli has evolved this roster to that has lost its confidence and swagger. JBB stepped on hie weenier at the trade deadline bringing in two redundant pieces instead of depth scoring. How he was sold on Jeanott is beyond me that’s what you get looking at one year of stats and to a point he did not get in Hagel the piece needed. But ohhhhh Hagel has a bunch of goal this year, well by osmosis many player on a line with Kuch and Point are going to inherit numbers. The defense is torn and collapses when behind. This has influenced Vasy into trying to do more than he should. It’s inevitable the Cup window closes but poor asset management in the front office and behind the bench deepens this.

So wait is it all on Cooper or JBBs poor management, you lost me

 

[Byrddog]

So wait is it all on Cooper or JBBs poor management, you lost me

Pretty simple JBB got the guy knowing the salary requirement in a flat cap arena. Now the guy has deserved a raise even though he has not fully used his talent with superior line mates. So Killorn is not likely signed removing 20 to 25 motte goals. You can not maintain a team by subtraction. This has put the team in the place it is now. That’s all on the GM. Additionally spending all the picks for this years additions will prolong any rebuild that is now in the windshield. Sure two cups and another final was great. But these moves could well have set up another 10 year rebuild before being cup ready again.

As to Coop he has it in his plan to fiddle with lines leaving on cog untouched. His refusal to bring Paul back to the second line and put Cirelli on the 3rd for a shutdown line is beyond me. Cirelli drains any production down as he is a defensive forward. When Hagel has been moved to the 2nd his production stopped. Stammer was moved up when he was struggling to get number 500. Coop has to know this but why he continues to refuse to move the guy that’s needed to move makes no sense.

Moving guys within the top nine has always been used as a method to spark production. In the past it has worked for Coop as well, so now what the issue? Is it coaching or the players ? Has to be one of them? Or maybe a combination of both.

 

[Stammertime91]

Fighting a losing battle nitpicking Hagel. He's been very good this year and still a young player which means room to grow. He made me and several others eat crow. He's creating chances with and without 21/86. Like I initially said, he's been the 3rd best forward all season.

 

[Byrddog]

Hagel definitely benefits offensively from his linemates - most everyone in the NHL would benefit would too. Hagel has 42 giveaways - Kuch has 84! Point has 40. And you skipped right over the fact Hagel's +/- is so much better than the line mates he's riding. I'd say theirs would be worse without Hagel on their line. So he's actually good defensively, or at least he has been this year.

Palat was also stronger on the puck, I'll give you that. As someone else pointed out, Palat also benefitted from playing on our top lines as well.

I'm with you on Coop's lines, we need the Paul, Stammer, Killorn line back together for the rest of the season to have a prayer of two effective scoring lines in the playoffs.

But let's not make Hagel the scapegoat for Kuch's 84 giveaways and overpassing - that's not something that started this year, though it has gotten worse. We've probably been asking Kuch to do too much for too long and the need to compensate for talent leaving the team the last couple years has only increased the need.

Agreed but the problem with the giveaways from Point and Kuch comes directly from their vision of the game and ability to create. As I said Hagel is a finisher. Point and Kuch also double shot a lot therefore one could expect more turnovers from them. Hagel plays that 1st line and PP with those two as well otherwise his + - would not be as good. So in this case it supports a players numbers being inflated by who their linemates are. Stammer had also had his part of double shifting this year as well due to the lack of scoring on the bottom 6. The third line has not clicked in any combination this year one would think Paul would have had more effect maybe that’s Coops reason for not reuniting Paul with Killer and Stammer. It has made for frustrating hockey to watch after what 4 years of pure scoring excitement. Now many nights this is a one line threat and if you shut them down it’s over. This is also in plain sight over the past couple months when they get down in the frustrating it’s a struggle to make it back to a tied game much less power back to wins. We have been spoiled and did not worry much if the team got down because we knew a offensive explosion was coming, have not felt that all year.

The team is not as loaded now and that’s all part of it but when you have guys in roles like Hagel sure is he has to cash in. Like I said before he should be over 40 goals now. As you say too any linemates of Kuch and Point are going to benifit. Hagel has but for sure not to the level he should be at. He had one job really put the puck in the net. I’m just disappointed he is not where I think he could be but in no way making him a scapegoat I like his game overall and a hell of a lot betttr than Cirelli. That’s the guy all eyes should be on. He’s the typical streaky forward in a position where stable scoring needs to happen. He rides on his defensive ability. Every 10 games or do he gets hit and gets 5 points in two games and fans forgive him while he goes into another stretch of games missing the scoresheet. 15 to 18 goals and 40 to 50 points are not good enough for a 2C on this team.

Fighting a losing battle nitpicking Hagel. He's been very good this year and still a young player which means room to grow. He made me and several others eat crow. He's creating chances with and without 21/86. Like I initially said, he's been the 3rd best forward all season.

What you say is true and I have said I like his game. But can you honestly say he has capitalized fully from the sacrifices of Kuch and Point? If you say yes then your expectations for him are lower than mine.

 

[Sky04]

Agreed but the problem with the giveaways from Point and Kuch comes directly from their vision of the game and ability to create. As I said Hagel is a finisher. Point and Kuch also double shot a lot therefore one could expect more turnovers from them. Hagel plays that 1st line and PP with those two as well otherwise his + - would not be as good. So in this case it supports a players numbers being inflated by who their linemates are. Stammer had also had his part of double shifting this year as well due to the lack of scoring on the bottom 6. The third line has not clicked in any combination this year one would think Paul would have had more effect maybe that’s Coops reason for not reuniting Paul with Killer and Stammer. It has made for frustrating hockey to watch after what 4 years of pure scoring excitement. Now many nights this is a one line threat and if you shut them down it’s over. This is also in plain sight over the past couple months when they get down in the frustrating it’s a struggle to make it back to a tied game much less power back to wins. We have been spoiled and did not worry much if the team got down because we knew a offensive explosion was coming, have not felt that all year.

The team is not as loaded now and that’s all part of it but when you have guys in roles like Hagel sure is he has to cash in. Like I said before he should be over 40 goals now. As you say too any linemates of Kuch and Point are going to benifit. Hagel has but for sure not to the level he should be at. He had one job really put the puck in the net. I’m just disappointed he is not where I think he could be but in no way making him a scapegoat I like his game overall and a hell of a lot betttr than Cirelli. That’s the guy all eyes should be on. He’s the typical streaky forward in a position where stable scoring needs to happen. He rides on his defensive ability. Every 10 games or do he gets hit and gets 5 points in two games and fans forgive him while he goes into another stretch of games missing the scoresheet. 15 to 18 goals and 40 to 50 points are not good enough for a 2C on this team.


What you say is true and I have said I like his game. But can you honestly say he has capitalized fully from the sacrifices of Kuch and Point? If you say yes then your expectations for him are lower than mine.

Ya I too expect 1.5M players to score 40 goals and 100 points or they aren't meeting expectations.

 

[Stammertime91]

Agreed but the problem with the giveaways from Point and Kuch comes directly from their vision of the game and ability to create. As I said Hagel is a finisher. Point and Kuch also double shot a lot therefore one could expect more turnovers from them. Hagel plays that 1st line and PP with those two as well otherwise his + - would not be as good. So in this case it supports a players numbers being inflated by who their linemates are. Stammer had also had his part of double shifting this year as well due to the lack of scoring on the bottom 6. The third line has not clicked in any combination this year one would think Paul would have had more effect maybe that’s Coops reason for not reuniting Paul with Killer and Stammer. It has made for frustrating hockey to watch after what 4 years of pure scoring excitement. Now many nights this is a one line threat and if you shut them down it’s over. This is also in plain sight over the past couple months when they get down in the frustrating it’s a struggle to make it back to a tied game much less power back to wins. We have been spoiled and did not worry much if the team got down because we knew a offensive explosion was coming, have not felt that all year.

The team is not as loaded now and that’s all part of it but when you have guys in roles like Hagel sure is he has to cash in. Like I said before he should be over 40 goals now. As you say too any linemates of Kuch and Point are going to benifit. Hagel has but for sure not to the level he should be at. He had one job really put the puck in the net. I’m just disappointed he is not where I think he could be but in no way making him a scapegoat I like his game overall and a hell of a lot betttr than Cirelli. That’s the guy all eyes should be on. He’s the typical streaky forward in a position where stable scoring needs to happen. He rides on his defensive ability. Every 10 games or do he gets hit and gets 5 points in two games and fans forgive him while he goes into another stretch of games missing the scoresheet. 15 to 18 goals and 40 to 50 points are not good enough for a 2C on this team.


What you say is true and I have said I like his game. But can you honestly say he has capitalized fully from the sacrifices of Kuch and Point? If you say yes then your expectations for him are lower than mine.

I think the only one capable of fully capitalizing is Stamkos. It's kind of an insane expectation to hold for the guy as if Palat even capitalized on their chances. So, no. But it also doesn't shape my assessment of how valuable and great he's been this year.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Agreed but the problem with the giveaways from Point and Kuch comes directly from their vision of the game and ability to create. As I said Hagel is a finisher. Point and Kuch also double shot a lot therefore one could expect more turnovers from them. Hagel plays that 1st line and PP with those two as well otherwise his + - would not be as good. So in this case it supports a players numbers being inflated by who their linemates are. Stammer had also had his part of double shifting this year as well due to the lack of scoring on the bottom 6. The third line has not clicked in any combination this year one would think Paul would have had more effect maybe that’s Coops reason for not reuniting Paul with Killer and Stammer. It has made for frustrating hockey to watch after what 4 years of pure scoring excitement. Now many nights this is a one line threat and if you shut them down it’s over. This is also in plain sight over the past couple months when they get down in the frustrating it’s a struggle to make it back to a tied game much less power back to wins. We have been spoiled and did not worry much if the team got down because we knew a offensive explosion was coming, have not felt that all year.

The team is not as loaded now and that’s all part of it but when you have guys in roles like Hagel sure is he has to cash in. Like I said before he should be over 40 goals now. As you say too any linemates of Kuch and Point are going to benifit. Hagel has but for sure not to the level he should be at. He had one job really put the puck in the net. I’m just disappointed he is not where I think he could be but in no way making him a scapegoat I like his game overall and a hell of a lot betttr than Cirelli. That’s the guy all eyes should be on. He’s the typical streaky forward in a position where stable scoring needs to happen. He rides on his defensive ability. Every 10 games or do he gets hit and gets 5 points in two games and fans forgive him while he goes into another stretch of games missing the scoresheet. 15 to 18 goals and 40 to 50 points are not good enough for a 2C on this team.


What you say is true and I have said I like his game. But can you honestly say he has capitalized fully from the sacrifices of Kuch and Point? If you say yes then your expectations for him are lower than mine.

What in gods name are you expecting? 40 - 40? You have said you have coached before, you must have been a terrible coach to deal with. Would have hated playing for someone like you who is just stuck in some asinine thought patterns and nothing is ever good enough.

 

[Felonious Python]

Guys would probably have the goals if they shot the puck.

 

[Stammertime91]

Guys would probably have the goals if they shot the puck.

This is so true. It's almost like you'd miss every attempt simply because you didn't shoot it.

I just had a breakthrough quote.

Something like, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

 

[Byrddog]

Ya I too expect 1.5M players to score 40 goals and 100 points or they aren't meeting expectations.

And you expect him to sign for 1.5 too I guess. What is the reason Hagel was brought in? I hope your answer is to score goal with two of the best play makers in the league. If you were the player going into a contract negotiation would you be better off at 30 or 40 goals? I will say again he is a good player but on this line he should easily hit 40.

I think the only one capable of fully capitalizing is Stamkos. It's kind of an insane expectation to hold for the guy as if Palat even capitalized on their chances. So, no. But it also doesn't shape my assessment of how valuable and great he's been this year.

Palat was not a pure scorer he had other areas of his game that made him valuable. But Hagel was brought here to replace Palat on the top line he did not move in to that role until Palat moved on. It’s my opinion that was the determining factor to upgrade that line. I would bet if Colton were moved to that line opening night and played there the entire year he would have 25g and 50 off points. Which would hit your expectations of great.

I suppose we’re just going to disagree about where Hagel should top out. On that line there’s no reason he should not have 40 goals and probably 30 assts. what the guy was paid this year is immaterial. What he will earn on his next contract is material especially if JBB does in fact move out more goals from Killorn to sign Hagel. I say again you can not continue to subtract scoring to sign guys that chase no reasonable chance in recouping the goals lost in the other player. This is especially critical now due to the fact there are no players in the system that can come in and make up the lost goals from Killorn.