2017 WCQF Series Topic - Blackhawks vs Predators

Status
Not open for further replies.

Panzerspitze

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
4,957
998
The problems have been there all season long. But if one must point out where the downward spiral started, it's not the Florida games. It's sending down Hinostrosa and the 5-0 loss to Edmonton coming out of the long layoff. They had four lines rolling, as Quenneville put it. It all went to ****, after the above events. Beating a short-handed Penguins team (8 regulars out) 5-1 and other victories after that was hardly righting the ship, because they never got all the lines going again.
 

Panzerspitze

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
4,957
998
2 and 4 were routinely embarrassed by the likes of Sissons and Aberg. They should be ashamed of themselves.
 

sugoi88

Registered User
Feb 28, 2016
439
75
Unless the entire team had mono that was a gutless performance.

Getting outplayed is one thing...the Preds played well, but im not sure we could have won a game against ANY of the other playoff teams. All but Hossa, TVR, Kane, Kriger, and especially Crawfors should feel ashamed and embarrassed.

Q needs to be out of here. With the effort we saw we wouldnt have won the series with any coach but his moves were ****ing ridiculous. Give the vets all thr latitude in the world and rotate the kids out after a bad game. He showed again he lacks thr ability to make tactical adjustments, instead opting for thr lineup musical chairs.

The Predators displayed what aggression can do. It creates turnovers and opportunities. The Hawks created none as they wernt aggressive and had poor anticipation.

What maybe pissed me off the most was the strategic reluctance of giving up the stretch pass in lieux of working the puck up the ice via shorter passes. Several turnovers and icings from continuing to do something that didnt work.

Easily the lowest point of the franchise in the last 10 years. Still some great pieces but the coaching, defense, and special teams are a ****ing mess.

I was waiting for this to happen and surprised it never did. They made those adjustments in the past especially against Tampa and Anaheim. The lack of strategic adjustments was weird. Unless the players just did not execute.
Still blame all that time off before post-season. And lack of leadership on the team. Vets as a whole should have led the rookies by their play on the ice and in the locker room.
Last season I bought in to the excuse of being tired/exhausted. But this season there was plenty of rest.
And imo perhaps Shaw's importance to this team was understated. Seabrook spoke to that in 2015.
 

Panzerspitze

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
4,957
998
Funny how the narrative has gone from having "the deepest d corps in years" (well, since 2013) to "aging players".
 

Backyard Hockey

Dealing With It
Feb 13, 2015
13,476
5,216
I'm not bummed. Not sure why, but I'm just not. I was VERY bummed after the OT loss to LA in Game 7 as I thought whoever won that series was beating NYR and that would mean a repeat.

After sleeping on it, I'll summarize my assessment as this:

- Q is getting a lot of criticism and he deserves every bit of it. What we've seen over the last couple of seasons make us wonder if he's a great coach or a good coach that was fortunate to be at the helm of a great roster. When I look at what Mike Sullivan has done, THAT is impressive. The list of head scratchers surrounding Q is long - starting with last season, his failure with Daley and his insistence on weak players (Runblad, Mashinter, etc). Even if we go back to his mis-management of the playoff roster in the 15 Cup Run with Vermette/TT. When we look at this season, we saw his wishy washy nature with the kids and he was absolutely embarrassed by Laviolette this series. He had no answer. Then we have his abandoning of the young guys for old retreads. I'm not as in love with Kempny as others are, but he's young and he's part of the future. You have to play your young guys to get them game action. How does playing a retread like Oduya - who clearly didn't have it anymore - make you a better team this season and more importantly, next, when guys like Oduya, Rosi and Campbell will all be gone? But most egregious is his marriage to Kitchen. ST on this team are consistently inconsistent. That a team who has Kane, Toews, Panarin, Keith and Seabrook on it's first PP unit is ranked 18 or 19th and looks as bad as they do is unthinkable. Most NHL coaches would die to have that first unit. Lastly, his management of the team over the last 10 games of the season led to this.

- GM - this is the bed Stan created. We can talk about the cap, the market, etc - but smart GMs pay for expectations of future performance, not past performance. The bottom line is that he has overpaid BADLY - both in terms of cap hits and NMC for MULTIPLE players - including Toews, Kruger, Seabrook and going back to Bickell. We also saw a big contract given to Anisimov before he played one shift. While he's gotten credit for his cap management, we are going to see the effects of this big contracts, his failure to get anything for assets (last offseason) and giving away of whatever pipeline there was.

- Kane - He didn't step up this playoffs, but frankly he's earned the mulligan. Let's look at what he's done in the two years since his contract kicked in - Year 1 - after a VERY trying offseason, he went out and won the MVP of the league with a brand new line including a journeyman center and a rookie who spoke no English. He got that kid the Calder. He and his line carried the team all season. Then this season, he comes in second in the league in scoring and his linemates also put up big numbers. He's proved he cam play with anyone and up his game and theirs. While he didn't star this series, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. What should not go unnoticed is that his linemates absolutely sucked this series. Anisimov was laughably brutal at the dot and Panarin waffled from lazy to disinterested to inaccurate.

- Panarin - see above. Disappearing in the playoffs - not good.

- The Kids - completely disappeared in the playoffs. Kero, Hartman, Schmaltz. Schmaltz was bad in Game 1 and got demoted. Hartman was completely invisible the entire series. Its as if the game was too big for them. But we've seen with Schmaltz - he's streaky. He had the nice little run, but I believe he ended the season without a goal in @ 25 games. A guy playing on the first line and getting a lot of shift time with Kane and Panarin?

- Crow - he's polarizing. People talk about the goal tending. We'll he did keep him in the games, he's just not the type of goalie that steals a game for his team. It's rare. For all of the 'he was outstanding' - he did still give up 5 goals in a critical 2nd game. When I watch him, it's as if he struggles with concentration. There are a lot of baffling goals that go in when it comes to 50 - ones we don't see with other goalies. I would give him more credit if not for the mediocre to bad run he had through January. That was a 25 game stretch where, statistically, he was one of the worst goalies in the NHL.

- Seabrook - when it was announced, we knew it was a terrible contract. We say it last season in which he looked out of shape. He slowed down significantly. Yes, he plays D, but you know what, it's ok for D men to score goals. Especially ones that play on a PP unit with Toews, Kane and Panarin. 3G all season. I believe he hadn't scored a goal in the last 50 games of the season. 50!!!

- The D - yes, slow and old, but also offensively impotent. There is no D man on this team that can get a shot through from the point. None. Zero. How many goals did we see scored against the Hawks from the point this season via a screen or a redirect? Answer - lots. Keith in particular - he literally cannot put a shot on goal. Wide every single time. These are talented players. It has to be a system thing.

- Toews - which brings us to the Captain. His performance was pathetic. It was pathetic for a $4M player. It was unthinkable for the highest paid player in the league. Until that meaningless goal, no goals in 13 straight playoff games? Outside of February, his season was garbage. At least 4 instances of 9+ game goalless streaks. Sure, we'll hear about the intangibles, but for $10.5M, he needs to put pucks in net. Period. Secondary apples like the one in Game 3 don't bear a lot of weight - a routine pass to a D man who makes a routine pass to one of the best shooters in the game who snipes is something to be excited about? All of the 'other things' he does, he wasn't doing. He effectively ended the game last night when it was 2-0 in the 3rd. D pinched into the zone to get in the rush. Toews loses a routine board battle against a bum which turns into a 3 on 1 effectively ending the game/series/season. It's one thing to say he looked ineffective this series - it's quite another to be honest and say he looked disinterested. Multiple instances of him not exerting effort.

Which brings us to the offseason. What to do? How excited are we about what's in the pipeline? The Hawks need D help - youth and speed - BADLY. The core is aging quickly. Oduya, Campbell and Rosi are all gone. Seabrook should be gone if they can find anyone to take that albatross contract. The team needs an injection of youth (not just guys like Kero) but young talented guys ala Pittsburgh, particularly on the blue line. That will require cap money. Money that is tied up in a few contracts. I would frankly be fine with seeing Seabrook, Kruger and Crawford off the roster. Hard to justify the spend on Crawford when an option that looks to be ready and perhaps 90% or better the goalie that Crow is, is available on the roster for probably half that cap hit. We all know of the Seabrook and Kruger contracts.

Kitchen has to be fired immediately. The performance of the PP unit in particular, with the talent on it, is simply unacceptable.

Which brings us to the sacred cows. I'd be fine with both Q and Toews saying good bye. For Q, I think this team needs some fresh blood and a new system. For Toews, I've now seen it two seasons in a row. If this is who this player is now, the window is closed. This team, as they've proved, cannot and will not win anything with this version of him. Couple that with the cap hit and it's crippling. 28% of the cap in two players. As someone said earlier, is there any other sport that has the two highest paid players in the league on the same roster? Everyone loves their dog but at some point you gotta put Rover down.

I personally thought this core would win one more Cup. I'm changing my tune. I think the window has closed. I attribute that to the decline of Toews, the lack of pipeline and the decline of various core players that happened quicker than we thought.

It was a fun and historic run and while I think they'll continue to be a playoff team, I don't see this group seriously contending for a Cup without changes noted.
 

Backyard Hockey

Dealing With It
Feb 13, 2015
13,476
5,216
Funny how the narrative has gone from having "the deepest d corps in years" (well, since 2013) to "aging players".

I think we were all surprised by that. On paper, when you looked at what they had coming into the season, it was hard to argue with that. A healthy Keith, an in shape Seabrook, Hammer, Campbell and his speed and ability to move the puck and new toys like Kempny and Forsling who showed flashes.

What I don't think we anticipated was the drop-off in core players on the blue line showing their age and wear and tear as badly as they did.
 

AmericanDream

Thank you Elon!
Oct 24, 2005
37,081
26,431
Chicago Manitoba
I know a few of us posters over the years took a lot of flack for our comments about this team getting outhit on a nightly basis - excuses were made that it wasn't a big deal. I always felt it was a massive deal especially to our core guys going through all these playoff wars. Seabrook and Hammer have taken some of the highest total of hits any player has taken in the past 6 years and that has easily impacted them.

The body can only take so much before wearing down. Keith, Seabs, and Hammer just never looked themselves, and maybe the killer instinct is gone like it was in years past, but the body and energy has been beaten over the course of the past 8 years to a point where I am not sure they can ever come back to that level.

Toews went through more wars than any other center I can think of including the Penguin duo - he looked a shell of himself out there.

Kane is elusive and never really seems to get hit much, which is why he played another amazing year overall. I can't say the same for much of our core who over the years just took way too many hits.

This isn't the only reason why we lost, but it is one of the main reasons why we should be concerned as too much was asked from the same core guys year in and year out - eventually they just aren't going to be able to keep up which happened here.

We need to distribute the minutes far better over the regular season - Keith cannot be playing over 22 minutes a night. We need others to step up.

We need Hammer and Seabs rested for stretches and forwards helping to slow down incoming opposition to lower the number of hits these guys take...other teams do it much better than us.

We need our youth to be given roles, take the damn kid gloves off already - look around the league, youth is king and young players are excelling everywhere. We don't need to finish first overall in the Confrence if this is going to be the end result, just make the damn playoffs, rest some guys along the way, and start riding the youth we have, THEY ARE GOOD!

It sucks we went out like this, but there could be better days ahead, we just have to adjust and understand what we have. If Q and Co. does the same thing again next year, and rides these horses to the ground during the regular season, we are toast.
 

gary777

Registered User
Apr 18, 2017
10
0
Agree 100% Good but not great anymore.

It was a fun and historic run and while I think they'll continue to be a playoff team, I don't see this group seriously contending for a Cup without changes noted.[/QUOTE]
 

BobbyJet

I am Canadian
Oct 27, 2010
29,837
9,878
Dundas, Ontario. Can
I know a few of us posters over the years took a lot of flack for our comments about this team getting outhit on a nightly basis - excuses were made that it wasn't a big deal. I always felt it was a massive deal especially to our core guys going through all these playoff wars. Seabrook and Hammer have taken some of the highest total of hits any player has taken in the past 6 years and that has easily impacted them.- Soupy gets destroyed often as well, and ops know they can do it without paying a price.

The body can only take so much before wearing down. Keith, Seabs, and Hammer just never looked themselves, and maybe the killer instinct is gone like it was in years past, but the body and energy has been beaten over the course of the past 8 years to a point where I am not sure they can ever come back to that level. - They won't

Toews went through more wars than any other center I can think of including the Penguin duo - he looked a shell of himself out there. - It's scary.

Kane is elusive and never really seems to get hit much, which is why he played another amazing year overall. I can't say the same for much of our core who over the years just took way too many hits.

This isn't the only reason why we lost, but it is one of the main reasons why we should be concerned as too much was asked from the same core guys year in and year out - eventually they just aren't going to be able to keep up which happened here.

We need to distribute the minutes far better over the regular season - Keith cannot be playing over 22 minutes a night. We need others to step up.

We need Hammer and Seabs rested for stretches and forwards helping to slow down incoming opposition to lower the number of hits these guys take...other teams do it much better than us.

We need our youth to be given roles, take the damn kid gloves off already - look around the league, youth is king and young players are excelling everywhere. We don't need to finish first overall in the Confrence if this is going to be the end result, just make the damn playoffs, rest some guys along the way, and start riding the youth we have, THEY ARE GOOD!

It sucks we went out like this, but there could be better days ahead, we just have to adjust and understand what we have. If Q and Co. does the same thing again next year, and rides these horses to the ground during the regular season, we are toast. -
Q treats the RS like it's life and death every year. It's called job security in case the team runs out of gas and/or wets the bed in the PO's. It's obviously working for him. We'll hear all summer long at how many points Hawks got in the RS.

I may add that the ST's philosophies need a 100 percent revamp. Hawks need a few big dmen in the org. The bottom 6 needs players who are good defensively but can also contribute offensively especially when the going gets tough.

Good post BTW.
 

Toews2Bickell

It's Showtime
Nov 24, 2013
23,393
23,306
Agreed. Activation and aggression were our D's biggest issues. The new NHL needs defenders (and coaches who are willing to let them (aka not Q)) to carry the puck.

Ability to win footraces as well. They used to be so much quicker at puck retrieval and getting it to the forwards for clean exits.
 

hawksfan50

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,095
1,980
The most bitter pill would be IF The Preds do not make it to the Cup Final as WC champions ....then they would draft in their normal seed position plus the drop down 1 slit due to Vegas added to the lottery ...I forget if their 8th seeds
In the WC is higher in points than the bottom seeds of the Eastern Conference (8,7,6?) or not...if not then the best they would pick is 17th (should they not make the Cup Final)...the way Nashville played us,you would think that they peaked playing their best hockey of the season and should now win the Western Conference if not the Cup ..but probably the Cup ...But we shall see..still the very thought of them possibly drafting 19 or 21 spits before we get our first pick...is ...plain sickening..So the had better win the Western Conference and go to the Cup .
 
Jul 12, 2007
1,330
222
Preds fan here, but I like the Blackhawks. I used to laugh when they were cursed by old man Wirtz, but I really appreciated how they rose out of the ashes when they got out from under him.

Difference in the series was about 6 young Preds guys who all hit their stride this year, or late this year. Jarnkrok, Arvidsson, Watson, Fiala, Ellis, Harry Z, plus Forsberg who was already on the upswing.

Hawks didn't seem to have even one of these guys. You all know the guys from watching them all year, but I didn't recognize any of your young guys names at all.

I don't follow the Leafs, but I know of Matthews, Kadri, Nylander. Bozak, and others, just from the highlights and boxscores. Same with a lot of other teams.

I honestly didn't recognize anybody outside your old, core guys except for Panarin. And the old core guys seemed tired and annoyed.
 
Jul 12, 2007
1,330
222
Plus you guys have no size and grit at all. You used to have Bollig, Bickell, Buf.

Now nobody. Seemed like Panic was your enforcer / sheriff. You can't have that, even in the weak weak NHL of today. Oilers took their great leap forward just with Lucic, Maroon, Kassian.

I remember Kane being as chippy and nasty as all get out. Now he has zero, with nobody to back him up.
 

hawksfan50

Registered User
Feb 27, 2002
14,095
1,980
There are 2 very interesting questions to ask:

1.Could the high -flying Blackhawks of February effort and excellence have beaten or at least made it a longer series against the all cylinders firing total team buy-in Predators of mid to late April? If tgecanswevisvYES thennitbiscQ's fauktvforvhis horrible decision to coast and not care about winning tge "meaningless" games down the stretch while Nashville was forced to play them all hard and with great intensity to just get in.

2.Howvinjured were the Hawks? LOOK ..every team has injuriescthusvtinenof year..but maybe Nashvilke was totally healthy ..on the bother hand Hawks had some clearly injured and playing through it and others with abmaybe" bit we will never know for certain. .

Certainly Injured and this way off game:

Anisimov...to a great degree. .probably the bleat healthy of all our guys...

Probable Injuries to a mid-degree:

.Hammer
.Keith
.Panarin

None played even 75% of their top form..Probably some injuries affecting that.

Doubtful Injuries:

TOEWS ...not buying into any injury explanation for his turgid play....

We got some of that excuse last season...But there bis no explanation why for 2 straight seasons he magically putsvgprth about a 6 weeks of effort and compete spurt in January through mid-February or likevthis season from about last week of January through first week of March ...so 9bviously not injured in his spurtsbofvexcellence ...They say hecwasvinjuredctibstartvthiscseason ...but then the spurt of 6 weeks late January through first week of March .amd so must have gotten healthy again. ..cannot believe he got injured again from 2nd week if Match on...not buying any injury excuse for his tepid play.
 

deytookerjaabs

Johnny Paycheck's Tank Advisor
Sep 26, 2010
13,327
5,279
Eastern Shore
When Toews goes into battles with guys half his build he gets shoved off the puck like a little kid. Something is DEFINITELY not right with him.


I think Stan got Q what we needed, better speed, better transition on the Roster. Q didn't use it. Stan would have been better not signing Campbell & trying to trade for one or two big body net presence forwards.
 
Jul 12, 2007
1,330
222
When Toews goes into battles with guys half his build he gets shoved off the puck like a little kid. Something is DEFINITELY not right with him.


I think Stan got Q what we needed, better speed, better transition on the Roster. Q didn't use it. Stan would have been better not signing Campbell & trying to trade for one or two big body net presence forwards.
I was shocked by how little the Hawks won those battles, or beat anybody to the puck, or lost it right after getting it. And no rushes, no tape-to-tape.

This used to be the deal with the Preds.

This series was a total role reversal.
 

BobbyJet

I am Canadian
Oct 27, 2010
29,837
9,878
Dundas, Ontario. Can
Plus you guys have no size and grit at all. You used to have Bollig, Bickell, Buf.

Now nobody. Seemed like Panic was your enforcer / sheriff. You can't have that, even in the weak weak NHL of today. Oilers took their great leap forward just with Lucic, Maroon, Kassian.

I remember Kane being as chippy and nasty as all get out. Now he has zero, with nobody to back him up.

Yep Stan and his worshipers seem to think that smaller is better and yes the NHL has changed, but the big men with skill and character are irreplaceable. Losing (the healthy) Bickell was more significant than most would like to admit. Even guys like Brouwer, Saad, Ladd and Sharp had some good grit to their game when it was necessary. I'm sick of Hawks getting manhandled.
 

DisgruntledHawkFan

Blackhawk Down
Jun 19, 2004
57,185
27,612
South Side
We didn't lose this series because we got bodied. The Ducks murdered us in hits in 15. People are looking for confirmation bias if they think we lost because of size.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
25,120
9,346
Plus you guys have no size and grit at all. You used to have Bollig, Bickell, Buf.

Now nobody. Seemed like Panic was your enforcer / sheriff. You can't have that, even in the weak weak NHL of today. Oilers took their great leap forward just with Lucic, Maroon, Kassian.

I remember Kane being as chippy and nasty as all get out. Now he has zero, with nobody to back him up.

Grit and size didn't beat the Blackhawks. It never has in the Toews/Kane era, and certainly didn't this year.

Speed was the issue. Nashville had more of it all over the ice. The Preds can trap, or they can forecheck, they can collapse, but whatever they do they can transition in and out of it so much faster than the Hawks. When the Hawks simply mishandle a pass, or take an extra beat to get it under control, there’s a Pred there, pressuring a turnover or cutting off options. When they do manage to get it deep, the mobile Preds defense is there before them, or right on top of them before they can move it again. When the Hawks think they have a passing lane, it’s filled faster than they can compute.

Speed, Speed, Speed. Speed on offense, speed on defense, speed on transition. The Predators beat the Blackhawks by playing Blackhawks hockey better than the Blackhawks.

Byfulien and Bickell contributed far more by scoring goals than they did with hits or toughness. Bollig contributed nothing. Like Tootoo contributed nothing.

Reacting to this loss by pursuing size, grit and toughness would work roughly as well for the Blackhawks going forward as it did for the Canucks after 2011. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

Panzerspitze

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
4,957
998
There are 2 very interesting questions to ask:

1.Could the high -flying Blackhawks of February effort and excellence have beaten or at least made it a longer series against the all cylinders firing total team buy-in Predators of mid to late April? If tgecanswevisvYES thennitbiscQ's fauktvforvhis horrible decision to coast and not care about winning tge "meaningless" games down the stretch while Nashville was forced to play them all hard and with great intensity to just get in.

2.Howvinjured were the Hawks? LOOK ..every team has injuriescthusvtinenof year..but maybe Nashvilke was totally healthy ..on the bother hand Hawks had some clearly injured and playing through it and others with abmaybe" bit we will never know for certain. .

Certainly Injured and this way off game:

Anisimov...to a great degree. .probably the bleat healthy of all our guys...

Probable Injuries to a mid-degree:

.Hammer
.Keith
.Panarin

None played even 75% of their top form..Probably some injuries affecting that.

Doubtful Injuries:

TOEWS ...not buying into any injury explanation for his turgid play....

We got some of that excuse last season...But there bis no explanation why for 2 straight seasons he magically putsvgprth about a 6 weeks of effort and compete spurt in January through mid-February or likevthis season from about last week of January through first week of March ...so 9bviously not injured in his spurtsbofvexcellence ...They say hecwasvinjuredctibstartvthiscseason ...but then the spurt of 6 weeks late January through first week of March .amd so must have gotten healthy again. ..cannot believe he got injured again from 2nd week if Match on...not buying any injury excuse for his tepid play.

Panarin doesn't look injured at all. Just doesn't seem fit for playoff hockey, except on the PP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Sydney Swans @ Hawthorn Hawks
    Sydney Swans @ Hawthorn Hawks
    Wagers: 4
    Staked: $5,720.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Inter Milan vs Torino
    Inter Milan vs Torino
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $1,447.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Metz vs Lille
    Metz vs Lille
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $220.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Cádiz vs Mallorca
    Wagers: 2
    Staked: $240.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Bologna vs Udinese
    Bologna vs Udinese
    Wagers: 3
    Staked: $265.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad