2017-18 Champions Hockey League

[Albatros]

Nope, you can't just spring up new hockey arenas everywhere in Europe just like that (see how long the new arena project in Tampere has already taken). JYP are one of the top teams in Finland and they're arena holds over 4000. It also needs to be reminded that most clubs in Finland don't own their arena, it belongs to the city that built it. The clubs pay rent to play there (though in most cases it's not big).

Besides the current arenas need to be full before it makes sense to build a bigger one. A Euroleague Hockey would probably need to be built around German and Swiss teams and located primarily in Central Europe, I'm not sure whether that would be so popular in Sweden or Finland especially if the level of hockey wouldn't be dramatically better than in their domestic leagues currently. Or there could be a separate Scandinavian division, but that would complicate the league structure further.

 

[vorky]

Besides the current arenas need to be full before it makes sense to build a bigger one. A Euroleague Hockey would probably need to be built around German and Swiss teams and located primarily in Central Europe, I'm not sure whether that would be so popular in Sweden or Finland especially if the level of hockey wouldn't be dramatically better than in their domestic leagues currently. Or there could be a separate Scandinavian division, but that would complicate the league structure further.

I do not say that new arenas should be built tommorow. No. But there must be some vision - lets say within 5-10 years all CHL clubs should play at 5000 arena or 6000 whatever. If you do not approve similar rule, the clubs (or municipalities) will do nothing with arenas next 10 to 20 years. Btw, we do not have to start with building of new big arenas, we can start with developing current arenas (lighting, boards, ice, TV equipment, pre-game shows etc). Unfortunatelly, I do not see this to happen soon. Lets look at the KHL. The league has had minimal capacity of 5500 seats since the beginnig, but allowed Barys Astana to play at 3000 arena, under condition of building new arena. And it happened, new 12k seats arena is here. Btw, KHL has a rule that if a team decides to build new arena, its capacity must be over 12k. I think, it should be at least 15k, but still better than CHL.

 

[lakers11]

I do not say that new arenas should be built tommorow. No. But there must be some vision - lets say within 5-10 years all CHL clubs should play at 5000 arena or 6000 whatever. If you do not approve similar rule, the clubs (or municipalities) will do nothing with arenas next 10 to 20 years. Btw, we do not have to start with building of new big arenas, we can start with developing current arenas (lighting, boards, ice, TV equipment, pre-game shows etc). Unfortunatelly, I do not see this to happen soon. Lets look at the KHL. The league has had minimal capacity of 5500 seats since the beginnig, but allowed Barys Astana to play at 3000 arena, under condition of building new arena. And it happened, new 12k seats arena is here. Btw, KHL has a rule that if a team decides to build new arena, its capacity must be over 12k. I think, it should be at least 15k, but still better than CHL.

So in what arena does CSKA play in considering their average attendance is 3200?

 

[Jussi]

I do not say that new arenas should be built tommorow. No. But there must be some vision - lets say within 5-10 years all CHL clubs should play at 5000 arena or 6000 whatever. If you do not approve similar rule, the clubs (or municipalities) will do nothing with arenas next 10 to 20 years. Btw, we do not have to start with building of new big arenas, we can start with developing current arenas (lighting, boards, ice, TV equipment, pre-game shows etc). Unfortunatelly, I do not see this to happen soon. Lets look at the KHL. The league has had minimal capacity of 5500 seats since the beginnig, but allowed Barys Astana to play at 3000 arena, under condition of building new arena. And it happened, new 12k seats arena is here. Btw, KHL has a rule that if a team decides to build new arena, its capacity must be over 12k. I think, it should be at least 15k, but still better than CHL.

You can't build a 12K arena in Europe and expect it to sell out with the ticket pricing we have compared to Russian ticket prices and population in some of the cities.

 

[vorky]

So in what arena does CSKA play in considering their average attendance is 3200?

5 600

You can't build a 12K arena in Europe and expect it to sell out with the ticket pricing we have compared to Russian ticket prices and population in some of the cities.

Maybe you missed it, I am not talking about 12k arenas, but 5k arenas. And I am talking about upgrade of current arenas as the first stage.

 

[Albatros]

Arenas aren't anyway the problem, filling them is.

 

[Rigafan]

The CHL looked at the Euroleague before the launch of the CHL. The CHL copied licence system, founding members system. Google Barcelona hockey forum, where the Euroleague was invited. But the CHL "forgot" to copy very important Euroleague´s rules:

- A licence team signs a long term contract with the Euroleague. The idea is to have the top teams every year (but they can not be in "relegation danger" in their domestic league), because only top teams bring quality & revenues. Yes, the CHL had A licence & three year deal for those teams. OK. But they got rid of them as soon as possible. Bad move. IMO, the CHL should decide, after first 3 years, this and that clubs deserve to have A licence for another 3-6 years. Of course not all teams, one or two teams from top leagues would be enough (+ a rule that these teams must make a playoff in domestic league or so). Instead, they introduced "sport qualification". I can quarantee you that this rule was invited by Swedes. I do not say it is bad in principle. But, a result is no big clubs (who brings money/interest) like Eisbaren or Sparta, to name a few, this season. So, the CHL was inspired by the Euroleague & gave up the idea after 3 years. Btw, the KHL has similar system as the Euroleague with licences. Of course, the KHL does not know "licences", but some important clubs have signed a long-term deal with the league, other teams do not have any deal with the league, they are only approved to participate by KHL BoD every year. To be fair, top teams with longterm deals must be also approved by KHL BoD, but it is formality.

- capacity of arenas. Look at the Euroleague´s rules, they have two standards, one for A licence teams & other for the rest. The same could be applied to the CHL as well, small arenas for smaller leagues & bigger arenas for bigger leagues.



The Euroleague had 24 teams, but reduced beause of the IMG deal. When we look at basketball map, this sport is more spread in Europe than hockey. So, maybe 24 is not overexpansion. But the CHL, without Russia, and their 48 and now 32 teams? More than Euroleague had before reduction?



I have no problem with smaller hockey countries. But, there is a mechanism called Qualifying Rounds.

Thanks vorky. I didn't know the CHL looked to Euroleague for inspiration. Euroleague clearly are doing more things right than the CHL though

 

[Rigafan]

Besides the current arenas need to be full before it makes sense to build a bigger one. A Euroleague Hockey would probably need to be built around German and Swiss teams and located primarily in Central Europe, I'm not sure whether that would be so popular in Sweden or Finland especially if the level of hockey wouldn't be dramatically better than in their domestic leagues currently. Or there could be a separate Scandinavian division, but that would complicate the league structure further.

CHL is the 'Euroleague Hockey' isn't it? Its just got too many Finnish and Swedish teams for it to look serious to me, especially when they don't even care for it.

 

[Jablkon]

I do not say that new arenas should be built tommorow. No. But there must be some vision - lets say within 5-10 years all CHL clubs should play at 5000 arena or 6000 whatever. If you do not approve similar rule, the clubs (or municipalities) will do nothing with arenas next 10 to 20 years. Btw, we do not have to start with building of new big arenas, we can start with developing current arenas (lighting, boards, ice, TV equipment, pre-game shows etc). Unfortunatelly, I do not see this to happen soon. Lets look at the KHL. The league has had minimal capacity of 5500 seats since the beginnig, but allowed Barys Astana to play at 3000 arena, under condition of building new arena. And it happened, new 12k seats arena is here. Btw, KHL has a rule that if a team decides to build new arena, its capacity must be over 12k. I think, it should be at least 15k, but still better than CHL.

These conditions are already set up in most of leagues. Some teams play with exceptions. There are only few teams in CHL with very small arenas, like Grodno, Cracovia, Gap, Esbjerg.I agree that some of them look more like training halls and it might should be adressed. But I think its still too premature arrangement.

 

[Albatros]

CHL is the 'Euroleague Hockey' isn't it? Its just got too many Finnish and Swedish teams for it to look serious to me, especially when they don't even care for it.

I wouldn't say it is, a Euroleague Hockey would need a proper regular season and rivalries between individual clubs. Perhaps there could be a Central European division and a Nordic one, both would be played separately and only meet in the playoffs/finals. For financial reasons small clubs couldn't be included.

Broadly something like:

A
Adler Mannheim
Düsseldorfer EG
Eisbären Berlin
EHC Red Bull München
EV Zug
HC Kometa Brno
HC Slovan Bratislava
HC Sparta Praha
Kölner Haie
SC Bern
Vienna Capitals
ZSC Lions Zürich

B
Brynäs IF Gävle
Djurgårdens IF Stockholm
Färjestads BK Karlstad
Frölunda HC Göteborg
HIFK Helsinki
HV71 Jönköping
Kärpät Oulu
Linköpings HC
Malmö Redhawks
Stavanger Oilers
Tappara Tampere
TPS Turku

 

[hockeyMB89]

Cracovia Kraków next match 3.10.2017(IFK Helsinki) back to Tauron Arena.

 

[Jussi]

Arenas aren't anyway the problem, filling them is.

In addition to that, in many cases renovating the arena would cost more than building a new one. For example in Finland, Helsinki Ice Hall, home of HIFK, was built in such a way that it can't be expanded. But it seems they are building a new multipurpose arena in dfowntown Helsinki to replace it (who knows when it will be finished though). JYP home arena Hippos is also built so that it can't be expanded. There is a new project to build a new sports complex in Jyväskylä but that could take some years.

 

[Urbanskog]

Cracovia Kraków next match 3.10.2017(IFK Helsinki) back to Tauron Arena.

Weird, since that game is essentially meaningless for both teams.

 

[Albatros]

Maybe in Finland the lack of competition with other sports is a factor too, in Sweden most SHL and even many Hockeyallsvenskan teams have state of the art facilities constructed in the 2000s.

In Finland a couple of barns have had major renovations, but there's no new 21st century building in Liiga or Mestis, not one. I'm struggling to come up with another significant hockey country in Europe where this would be the case.

 

[rooster85]

Weird, since that game is essentially meaningless for both teams.

all the games were planned to be played in Tauron Arena, but the arena wasn't available (volleyball tournament). So only this game will be played there. It's a great place and i propably go to Kraków to see that game.

 

[habsturies]

CHL is the 'Euroleague Hockey' isn't it? Its just got too many Finnish and Swedish teams for it to look serious to me, especially when they don't even care for it.

this

 

[Rigafan]

Maybe in Finland the lack of competition with other sports is a factor too, in Sweden most SHL and even many Hockeyallsvenskan teams have state of the art facilities constructed in the 2000s.

In Finland a couple of barns have had major renovations, but there's no new 21st century building in Liiga or Mestis, not one. I'm struggling to come up with another significant hockey country in Europe where this would be the case.

Belarus?

Also regarding your post about a scenario with a Central Div and a Nordic Div. I'd much prefer something like that set up.

 

[Urbanskog]

Belarus?

Also regarding your post about a scenario with a Central Div and a Nordic Div. I'd much prefer something like that set up.

The 2014 WHC venues, Minsk Arena and Chizhovka Arena were opened in 2010 and 2013, respectively. It's true that Finland lacks new arenas but there are several plans in motion at the moment - in Helsinki, Tampere, Turku and Jyväskylä.

all the games were planned to be played in Tauron Arena, but the arena wasn't available (volleyball tournament). So only this game will be played there. It's a great place and i propably go to Kraków to see that game.

I do wonder what will the attendance be like for the remaining game though. Hopefully there will be a good crowd despite the fact that the game itself is unimportant.

 

[Albatros]

In Belarus the government (read: Lukashenko) has actually been funding new arenas very generously. The Minsk-Arena is obviously the undisputed crown jewel, the biggest arena with the best attendances in the KHL, but also all the feeder clubs of the domestic league have modern even if somewhat less fancy facilities. Conversely there were next to no ice halls in the country previously anyway. Currently there are around 60 indoor rinks in Belarus out of which only four are older than 20 years and only two from the Soviet era.

 

[Slimmy]

CHL is the 'Euroleague Hockey' isn't it? Its just got too many Finnish and Swedish teams for it to look serious to me, especially when they don't even care for it.

Nordic Trophy was a tournament between Swedish and Finnish teams started by Frölunda, HV71 and some other Swedish teams, I believe. This then became the European Trophy and finally the CHL. I am not sure about the ownership structure of the CHL but I would not be surprised if a majority is owned by Swedish and Finnish teams.

 

[Slimmy]

I wouldn't say it is, a Euroleague Hockey would need a proper regular season and rivalries between individual clubs. Perhaps there could be a Central European division and a Nordic one, both would be played separately and only meet in the playoffs/finals. For financial reasons small clubs couldn't be included.

Broadly something like:

A
Adler Mannheim
Düsseldorfer EG
Eisbären Berlin
EHC Red Bull München
EV Zug
HC Kometa Brno
HC Slovan Bratislava
HC Sparta Praha
Kölner Haie
SC Bern
Vienna Capitals
ZSC Lions Zürich

B
Brynäs IF Gävle
Djurgårdens IF Stockholm
Färjestads BK Karlstad
Frölunda HC Göteborg
HIFK Helsinki
HV71 Jönköping
Kärpät Oulu
Linköpings HC
Malmö Redhawks
Stavanger Oilers
Tappara Tampere
TPS Turku

It's going to be a hard sell for Swedish teams to share their TV-deal money with Finnish teams. As it is now, Swedish teams are pretty well off. For this to make sense to Swedish teams there would have to be considerably better money in this new league and I don't think the division you suggest is going to generate that money.

 

[bordshockeypampen]

I am not sure about the ownership structure of the CHL but I would not be surprised if a majority is owned by Swedish and Finnish teams.

The CHL is owned by 26 teams, 6 leagues and IIHF.

I don't remember the percentages but I believe that the teams together own a bit more than 50%. Of the teams six are Swedish, six are Finnish. Four from each of Czechia, Switzerland and Germany, and two from Austria.

 

[Jussi]

Thanks for info.

I will give you another example from Russia. Before the MHL (junior) was created in 2009, there was no national junior league in Russia, young prospects used to play 3rd tier senior league (young players & senior guys on one team, some mix) & they played at really bad arenas. The rule of the MHL was to play MHL matches at the same venue as the KHL is played or to repair old arenas (with XY seats). So, Russians wanted to avoid a situation when clubs, to reduce costs, to play at bad & small arenas. This, switching of a venue, is happening in the CHL - now Malmo, last year final in Gotherburg (FINAL) & who knows who else... not a good impression for ordinary fans.

It's not a league related issue, it's a venue booking issue. As mentioned previously, the big arena in Poland was booked for the volleyball European Championships. The big arena in Gothenburg was booked for a another event. Hartwall Arena is booked now for Eurobasket meaning Jokerit have to start the season with a an 8 game road trip. It's was booked for the figure skating European Championships in March, meaning Jokerit would have ben forced to palyat the Braona Areena in Espoo had the made it into the second round.

 

[Slimmy]

It's not a league related issue, it's a venue booking issue. As mentioned previously, the big arena in Poland was booked for the volleyball European Championships. The big arena in Gothenburg was booked for a another event. Hartwall Arena is booked now for Eurobasket meaning Jokerit have to start the season with a an 8 game road trip. It's was booked for the figure skating European Championships in March, meaning Jokerit would have ben forced to palyat the Braona Areena in Espoo had the made it into the second round.

This is correct. Scandinavium was booked for another event.

 

[Urbanskog]

It's not a league related issue, it's a venue booking issue. As mentioned previously, the big arena in Poland was booked for the volleyball European Championships. The big arena in Gothenburg was booked for a another event. Hartwall Arena is booked now for Eurobasket meaning Jokerit have to start the season with a an 8 game road trip. It's was booked for the figure skating European Championships in March, meaning Jokerit would have ben forced to palyat the Braona Areena in Espoo had the made it into the second round.

Wrong. The last EuroBasket game in Helsinki was played the day before yesterday but Jokerit are still continuing their road trip and will not play at home until the 16th because the attendance would be atrocious in late August/early September.

And Barona Areena hasn't been the name of the venue since 2015.