WC: 2015 — Team Finland

Status
Not open for further replies.

kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
4,280
1,741
There is nothing outlandish about the claim. In about 25 out of the 30 organizations in the league, Ristolainen would have spent his season in the AHL. That kind of player is not on the level to be considered a lock, even for a WHC team. He needed additional showings to nail his spot, and failed to deliver those.

None of the "so-called" majority have the same intel about Ristolainen as Jalonen and his cohorts did, so to imagine being able to call it better than him with less information (and coaching experience) than him is extremely arrogant.

Like I said above, the reason I went from questioning the call to defending it, is watching Lindell play. I know that some coaches have preoccupation towards veteran players and the fresh faces will have to work double as hard to make the cut - but Jalonen's treatment of Lindell speaks volumes against that. He gave Ristolainen the same treatment as the rest of them, saw something in him that didn't fit in his big picture - and no one who was been in the room as the decision was made can stand on solid ground while questioning the call.

Bottom line: While evaluating the players available to him, Jalonen nailed Lindell and his compete level. Therefore one really can't question his treatment of Ristolainen, as the odds are he didn't single out one young high-level performer and at the same time grossly miscalculate the other one.

Lindell does not exclude Ristolainen one way or the other. And making a claim that RR would not be playing in 25-30 of the organisations in the NHL is pretty absurd since you can't back it up one way or another anymore you could back up your points regarding to his complete level. If he was in fact as raw as you make him out to be, he'd be playing 2nd or 3rd pairing minutes instead of being in the 1st two. NHL teams don't throw their most promising players under the bus just in sakes of losing more games. That's bad player developement and Sabres aren't exactly amateurs in that department. Look around and you will find plenty of high drafted young NHL players in the line ups today. RR isn't even young compared to Ekblad f.ex. who's playing for the Canada (a team which has a lot larger pool to scoop players)

Anyway, you can view the picks and the cuts in any manner you please, I really don't care. Like I said most Finns would've prefered to have Risto in the team. That includes polls from the internet, a lot of conversations outside these forums and a common opinion when you talk to people who watch hockey in the country. So your in a minority. No one here questions Risto's lousy performance in the pre-tournament games. Perhaps he thought his position was sealed and didn't give 100% since those games are rather meaningless. There's no way to tell, but I'm fairly sure he'd added more effort if he felt he was in the chopping block.

Saying Mäntylä hasn't been a failure pretty much sums it up as far as I'm conserned. :help:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Mestaruus

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
4,878
1,768
So tomorrow Finland has a day off. Monday 17:15 BLR, Tuesday 21:15 Russia. I wouldn't mind putting Saros on goal again against BLR and Rinne would of course play the RUS game.

Since KJ mentioned that he wants to keep recycling players and he kinda confirmed Hartikainen and Hytönen would step in, I'd personally take Kontiola and Ruutu out and do Komarov-Hytönen-Hartikainen for BLR game and then put the SVK line up back for RUS game.

Btw we have been quite lucky that we haven't got any major injuries so far. It's bit unusual compared to other tournaments.
 
Last edited:

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
Lindell does not exclude Ristolainen one way or the other. And making a claim that RR would not be playing in 25-30 of the organisations in the NHL is pretty absurd since you can't back it up one way or another anymore you could back up your points regarding to his complete level.

And I didn't say Lindell excludes Ristolainen. I said that if Jalonen can correctly evaluate Lindell's worth to this squad, he can similarly evaluate Ristolainen's. Not one over the other, but in general. And if he figured Ristolainen is not a good fit to this thing he's seeking - a thing that has been working quite well this far, btw - I'm inclined to defer to his judgment on this matter over the "popular majority", most of whom have spent as much time behind the bench as pigs have in outer space.

Seriously, arguing that "most people" who are not hockey professionals know this stuff better than a pro coach (who seems to not have any prejudice towards young players either) is just... well, it reminds me of the old saying, "10 000 flies can't be wrong - manure tastes good".

For what it's worth (and I wonder how many times I've said this too already), if it was me behind that bench, Ristolainen would be in the squad. But then again, if it was me behind the bench, the look of our squad would most likely resemble a big piece of turd overall. So I'm extremely happy that it's Jalonen with his experience out there - accompanied by his selection of guys - and not me.

Saying Mäntylä hasn't been a failure pretty much sums it up as far as I'm conserned.
But he hasn't. He's not been any more a liability than the rest of the guys out there. Hasn't had a single game where he's failed to get over the bar yet. Like I said, I'm not sure if I call that a success, but it sure as heck ain't a failure either.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JJTT

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
7,759
1,338
Oulu
Kontiola out please. He simply can't do anything right in his current form.

Pesonen-Kemppainen-Aaltonen
Jokinen-Barkov-Donskoi
Pihlström-Immonen-Louhivaara
Komarov-Hytönen-Ruutu
 

roto

Registered User
Oct 26, 2009
612
11
Lindell does not exclude Ristolainen one way or the other. And making a claim that RR would not be playing in 25-30 of the organisations in the NHL is pretty absurd since you can't back it up one way or another anymore you could back up your points regarding to his complete level. You haven't watched the guy play in the NHL obviously, so most of the arguing is nothing better than trolling. If he was in fact as raw as you make him out to be, he'd be playing 2nd or 3rd pairing minutes instead of being in the 1st two. NHL teams don't throw their most promising players under the bus just in sakes of losing more games. That's bad player developement and Sabres aren't exactly amateurs in that department. Look around and you will find plenty of high drafted young NHL players in the line ups today. RR isn't even young compared to Ekblad f.ex. who's playing for the Canada (a team which has a lot larger pool to scoop players)

Anyway, you can view the picks and the cuts in any manner you please, I really don't care. Like I said most Finns would've prefered to have Risto in the team. That includes polls from the internet, a lot of conversations outside these forums and a common opinion when you talk to people who watch hockey in the country. So your in a minority. No one here questions Risto's lousy performance in the pre-tournament games. Perhaps he thought his position was sealed and didn't give 100% since those games are rather meaningless. There's no way to tell, but I'm fairly sure he'd added more effort if he felt he was in the chopping block.

Saying Mäntylä hasn't been a failure pretty much sums it up as far as I'm conserned. :help:
The worst argument ever is that some majority of the Finnish people think RR should be in the team :shakehead KJ saw him playing in preliminary games, but he also saw him in trainings and other situations on and off ice. What we fans see is just the tip of the iceberg. It's really stupid to think that KJ had made the decision based on same information that a fan has.

KJ proved that he is not afraid to select young defenders and selection of Lindell seemed to be a really wise move. 72 games in built-to-lose-Sabres doesn't mean that RR would have been good enough in WHC on big ice. This team wasn't built for World Cup on small ice.

It's plain stupid to moan about RR week after week. Moaning doesn't bring him in and it doesn't prove that he would've had a positive effect. We don't know how would have the games went with RR, but we know that it's useless to dwell in those fantasies.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FinRuutu

Red Wins
Feb 7, 2010
6,323
255
Helsinki
Lindell does not exclude Ristolainen one way or the other. And making a claim that RR would not be playing in 25-30 of the organisations in the NHL is pretty absurd since you can't back it up one way or another anymore you could back up your points regarding to his complete level. You haven't watched the guy play in the NHL obviously, so most of the arguing is nothing better than trolling. If he was in fact as raw as you make him out to be, he'd be playing 2nd or 3rd pairing minutes instead of being in the 1st two. NHL teams don't throw their most promising players under the bus just in sakes of losing more games. That's bad player developement and Sabres aren't exactly amateurs in that department. Look around and you will find plenty of high drafted young NHL players in the line ups today. RR isn't even young compared to Ekblad f.ex. who's playing for the Canada (a team which has a lot larger pool to scoop players)

Anyway, you can view the picks and the cuts in any manner you please, I really don't care. Like I said most Finns would've prefered to have Risto in the team. That includes polls from the internet, a lot of conversations outside these forums and a common opinion when you talk to people who watch hockey in the country. So your in a minority. No one here questions Risto's lousy performance in the pre-tournament games. Perhaps he thought his position was sealed and didn't give 100% since those games are rather meaningless. There's no way to tell, but I'm fairly sure he'd added more effort if he felt he was in the chopping block.

Saying Mäntylä hasn't been a failure pretty much sums it up as far as I'm conserned. :help:

While I would have wanted to see RR in the team I was not at the camp nor I saw any rehearsal games so I can't say that I can say with certainty that he did what he needed to do to earn a spot.

Being a besserwisser with no evidence of any kind to back your claims is kinda obnoxious.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kelsier

Registered User
Aug 17, 2013
4,280
1,741
And I didn't say Lindell excludes Ristolainen. I said that if Jalonen can correctly evaluate Lindell's worth to this squad, he can similarly evaluate Ristolainen's. Not one over the other, but in general. And if he figured Ristolainen is not a good fit to this thing he's seeking - a thing that has been working quite well this far, btw - I'm inclined to defer to his judgment on this matter over the "popular majority", most of whom have spent as much time behind the bench as pigs have in outer space.

Seriously, arguing that "most people" who are not hockey professionals know this stuff better than a pro coach (who seems to not have any prejudice towards young players either) is just... well, it reminds me of the old saying, "10 000 flies can't be wrong - manure tastes good".

For what it's worth (and I wonder how many times I've said this too already), if it was me behind that bench, Ristolainen would be in the squad. But then again, if it was me behind the bench, the look of our squad would most likely resemble a big piece of turd overall. So I'm extremely happy that it's Jalonen with his experience out there - accompanied by his selection of guys - and not me.

But he hasn't. He's not been any more a liability than the rest of the guys out there. Hasn't had a single game where he's failed to get over the bar yet. Like I said, I'm not sure if I call that a success, but it sure as heck ain't a failure either.

Now that's funny. Referring to someone running out of arguments, when you basicly have two: 1) Being a first pairing defender in a lousy NHL team trying to win lottery isn't viable enough 2) Having bad rehersal games. First one really not panning out given how you backed it up. For the other one I agree, how else can you view as those bad games apparenly cost him the spot.

Now I'm not sure if we are even watching the same games to be honest. Mäntylä nearly cost us the lead in today's game when letting the opposition forward coast past through him ~10minutes left of the game. Then, when it was already too late he sort of wiped the guy's balance with a stick and I'm not sure how that wasn't called. We got really lucky. For the games before, it's been the same. The guy doesn't have enough level for the world championships and we've been having easy countries this far (apart from USA which kind of sets the bar vs other top countries). It will only get harder from now on so who knows how many goals we're going to be handing out due to Mäntylä's unability to handle defensive duties.

If you look into the past and can say with a clear conscience that the 'pro coaches' haven't made bad selections before then that's fair enough. People rightfully have critised some of the rosters for as long as I can remember watching world championships, but there's nothing wrong having blind faith either. There's also the bias factor of a coach picking a player he has history with rather than a player who's had more success & ability given the seasonal achievement. That's the usual story, not sure if that applies in the current situation.

I'm no more of a player scout than you are and I guess since we both agree RR should be in the team makes this rather pointless debate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
Ristolainen's club team status is actually not related to whether he would have been good enough to make this team or not, it was to determine whether he was worthy of a direct spot or not. Seems like we have two schools. One thinks yes, because "ZOMG +20min NHL d-man 4 surah!" and the other sees things as follows - "He's a rookie d-man in a basement organization still cultivating its players. So no, additional showings from the camp are required". And those he didn't sadly deliver - or did, but was not as good as the guys now selected, or seemed like a misplaced cog in Jalonen's game plan.

If RR expected a sure spot, he was wrong - as were most of those who made that presumption. And this time round, Jalonen did not deem his try-out showings good enough. We'll have to re-evaluate his status next spring if he's available.

Now I'm not sure if we are even watching the same games to be honest. Mäntylä nearly cost us the lead in today's game when letting the opposition forward coast past through him ~10minutes left of the game. Then, when it was already too late he sort of wiped the guy's balance with a stick and I'm not sure how that wasn't called. We got really lucky. For the games before, it's been the same. The guy doesn't have enough level for the world championships and we've been having easy countries this far (apart from USA which kind of sets the bar vs other top countries). It will only get harder from now on so who knows how many goals we're going to be handing out due to Mäntylä's unability to handle defensive duties.
Here's a newsflash: It's not a game of what ifs. As long as Mäntylä doesn't cost us games, he clears the bar. Not by a great margin perhaps, but does so regardless. There may be a defensive lapse or two, but if you start picking his, you need to pick the ones made by the rest as well. And that's such a quagmire that we'll do well if we only count those that actually end up in the GAA column - as people honoring objective practices should do. So that's "if" number one in the wind.

And the second one goes as follows - we only have a supposition that Ristolainen would have been better than the designated patsy. However, there's no way to know for sure. So picking out a player and comparing his goings against the imaginary goings of another player in the same situation is not exactly fair. You're playing a fantasy against reality, and only stoners get a pass on that practice.

So even if Mäntylä looks like a failure to you, it's a huge logical misstep to argue that Ristolainen would have been better, because you really don't have anything better than your own gut feeling to back it up. For that to be possible, they both should have made this squad so we can compare 'em head-to-head. Sadly, that isn't the case, so all we have is Mäntylä being Mäntylä, and we've won most of our games with him in the lineup and zat's it. We shall see how Mäntylä fares when tougher countries start rolling along, but since precognition is not a thing known to the physics of this reality, we'll have to wait and see that far before we make the final call on him.

Simply put, we're not (or no intelligent person should be, at least) valuing Mäntylä against the imaginary showings of Ristolainen, we're valuing Mäntylä for his contribution to the overall team effort, and while he's certainly not our most depended-upon player, thus far he's cleared the bar. To claim otherwise is intellectual dishonesty.

If you look into the past and can say with a clear conscience that the 'pro coaches' haven't made bad selections before then that's fair enough. People rightfully have critised some of the rosters for as long as I can remember watching world championships, but there's nothing wrong having blind faith either. There's also the bias factor of a coach picking a player he has history with rather than a player who's had more success & ability given the seasonal achievement. That's the usual story, not sure if that applies in the current situation.
I'm fully aware of these practices and have actually been occasionally calling some coaches *cough*Erkka*cough* out because of it - but the very thing is, Jalonen has actually shown NO display of such behavior, or at the very least, notably less than what warrants the usual suspicion.

He gives a kid a fair chance if he thinks he's deserved it (mind you, he could have easily kept Lindell out on sheltered minutes all tournament long or play Engren instead of Saros tonight), stays on top of the game, sees who's hot (like Kemppainen) and gives them more minutes while cutting down or diminishing the overall role of those who are not - even if they're supposed to be a designated heavy hitter (like Kontiola).

ONLY questionable roster move Jalonen has done so far is cutting Ristolainen. When one pulls the noggin out of the smelly place and takes a gander around, one will hopefully notice that it's a gross outlier against every other call he's got perfectly right. Therefore it doesn't seem so outlandish to think that maybe he didn't get this one all that wrong either.

Of course, if the widest perspective one's ever had in life has been provided by the peephole drilled to the wall of the girls' locker room, it might be difficult to figure out that there are things outside our personal views as well. The fact that we don't know what the supposed good reason for cutting Ristolainen was, doesn't mean there isn't one. And given how Jalonen appears to be pretty far from a stereotypical coach stuck in his age-old ways, the odds are said reason's there alright.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644
Mäntylä actually not failing doesn't mean its succesful to pick him over RR. It just can't be right pick. IDK what there is to talk about it, let it be, RR should've been picked over TM and some don't agree with this for some reasons.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
It just can't be right pick.
Here's the thing. It's not the right pick based on what we know. If I was told to make the call after watching RR play in Buffalo and those practice games, I would have picked him.

But when we remind ourselves that we don't know everything Jalonen knows, we suddenly note that the quoted statement becomes false. It's really one or the other. Maybe right, maybe wrong.

We all have our own evaluations of it, but given how Jalonen has got almost every other call right this far, I know I'm veering towards "more likely right than wrong" with it.


Of course, none of us can give the final judgment before the tournament is over.
 

QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644

What I mean is, of course it could work and they could win, but it's not because Mäntylä is better player than Ristolainen. What I mean is like.. if some lunatic is would take Mika Nieminen over Prime Selänne, it just can't be right. The team still can win, the other player is not that bad. Other just would've been better.

The difference is not that big, but it is very big. Ristolainen is not superstar (yet) but he beats Mäntylä in defensive or offensive defenseman role by far, and brings size, skills, good 1st passes (even in those pre tournament games he gave good first passes).
 

rduck1

Registered User
Dec 26, 2013
1,078
9
Finland
I don't think it's a good time to criticize the defense when the team hasn't been scored on in the last four games. Just saying.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
If we limit ourselves to making head-to-head comparisons between players, I agree that Ristolainen beats Mäntylä AINEC.

However, there's more to it than that. Jalonen has over and over again talked about how he has four five-man units (note how he uses words "viisikko" or "kentällinen", not "ketju") and how he wants to keep rolling as well as he can as a whole (this also touches the debate about six vs. eight d-men).

As bizarre as it may sound, maybe he simply saw something in Mäntylä that completes one of the units better than Ristolainen? And before you pan the idea, just look at the results. All I'm saying is, maybe the man has an idea there after all.

So it's not really how Ristolainen performs as an individual, but how he would have fit as member of one of the four units. There must have been something there that made Jalonen figure Mäntylä is a better fit. If he even was the guy the comparison was made against in the first place.
 
Last edited:

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
I don't think it's a good time to criticize the defense when the team hasn't been scored on in the last four games. Just saying.
Thank you.

If we start playing with paper dolls, we can easily say things like "player X is better than player Y". But that's not all there is. Jalonen had some grand plan about his defensive game (and full unit play overall) and if we disregard the early hiccups in the USA game, thus far he's pretty much shown us that his plan works.

Given the nature of hockey as a game, I'm sure said plan also leaves some room for mistakes. So as long as Jalonen doesn't bench Mäntylä, he's obviously happy with the way he fits into it.
 

QnebO

Wheel, snipe, celly
Feb 11, 2010
9,763
644
Well, it has been going well, but lets be realistic: it's not like team would've lost for these bit weaker countries we have won so far if Mäntylä was changed to Risto. Against really big teams, lets see. Mäntylä was horrible in USA game but has been better since then. Today he had actually solid game. While Slovakia wasn't a bad team at all, I hope he can perform against best teams, too.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
Why exactly does this "should RR have made it" discussion revolve around Mäntylä anyway? There are also seven other d-men there who made it over Risto.
 

rduck1

Registered User
Dec 26, 2013
1,078
9
Finland
Why exactly does this "should RR have made it" discussion revolve around Mäntylä anyway? There are also seven other d-men there who made it over Risto.

He's the consensus pick for least valuable, and made big mistakes in the first game. Thus it seems he's the worst offender for the not-best-player-available argument. In reality it would've probably been Lindell out for RR though since Mäntylä is there specifically for a bottom pairing role and veteran presence; he's basically standing in for Väänänen and Kukkonen.
 

FiLe

Mr. Know-It-Nothing
Oct 9, 2009
6,983
1,355
He's the consensus pick for least valuable, and made big mistakes in the first game. Thus it seems he's the worst offender for the not-best-player-available argument. In reality it would've probably been Lindell out for RR though since Mäntylä is there specifically for a bottom pairing role and veteran presence; he's basically standing in for Väänänen and Kukkonen.
You pretty much nailed the answer I was looking for.

As I said a while back, I wonder what the general reaction would have been if it had been Lindell out, Risto in. Probably something less explosive as we've seen now, since the coveted NHL status obviously is a pretty big thing to some fans. Coaches, luckily, tend to make their calls based on what they actually experience. And sometimes they take off-ice presence into account as well.

Of course, an argument could be made whether that veteran company is required in the first place. Regardless, it's not such a binary choice some people make it out to be. Hockey is a team game, and sometimes there's more to the team-building than playing with paper dolls. Of course, sometimes coaches can get a bit too cute with it. But like you noted above, it's a bad time to be panning the coach when he's delivering the results.
 
Last edited:

Lapa

Global Moderator
Feb 21, 2010
13,158
2,069
Enough with the flaming and the general bickering. If you disagree with someone, fine, just don't make personal attacks or accuse them of trolling.
 

Raimo Sillanpää

Registered User
Mar 11, 2003
1,853
201
Espoo, Finland
I'm starting to think it was Lindell over Ristolainen - then Jalonen figured he's gambling on one kid and needs to give him an environment where he can succeed, so vet's to help ease him in and not cause unnecessary troubles. So he went for one kid, not two
Giving Lindell a perfect environment where to succeed in, gambling that Mäntylä would be good enough, seeing that as a lesser risk than carrying both Lindell and Ristolainen.
The Lindell experiment was a home run, we have to give that to Jalonen, he's managed him perfectly. The Mäntylä gamble is understandable - but in hindsight maybe he underestimated Lindell, overestimated Mäntylä.. Win one lose one.

If he keeps this method of getting kids into the team, one kid with sheltered environment not needing too much from - giving kid time and space to succeed.. Then he's exactly the sort of coach Finland needs. Bravo!

Even overplaying Pekka was probably to give Lindell a safe environment - my biggest concerns are with the forwards he chose and who he continues to play despite not doing well. Immonen's line looked better without him, Kontiola and Aaltonen are still question marks - can we really afford to carry those guys hoping they find form instead of choosing guys like Palola?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad