2014 Free Agency drags on ...

[RLF]

i guess.

lol i just wish i could articulate specifically what bothers me about it and why. like i feel i'm not. ah well.

I think you explained yourself well, from what I understand, you don't really see any difference in LTIR or burying a guy in the minors or a buy-out. You feel they should all fall equally under cap conditions. If one counts against the cap, so should the rest and vice versa. Correct?
If so, I was just pointing out where I see a difference in the scenario's. LTIR is the only situation where the player cannot play, neither by his or the teams choice. The other situations are the player losing his game, confidence, doesn't care etc and the team saying, I choose to get rid of you and don't want to pay your salary anymore. To me, there is a difference. With you maybe not, and that's fine.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I don't know why I go on hockeybuzz, but they still think Phaneuf to the Islanders is still a possibility...

Oh and they said that we have a new Assistant GM by the name of Kyle Dubbers. When did we get another new Assistant GM?

 

[ChuckWoods]

I don't know why I go on hockeybuzz, but they still think Phaneuf to the Islanders is still a possibility...

Oh and they said that we have a new Assistant GM by the name of Kyle Dubbers. When did we get another new Assistant GM?

Kyle Dubbers will come in to help ease the work load off of our other new AGM Kyle Dubas!

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Kyle Dubbers will come in to help ease the work load off of our other new AGM Kyle Dubas!

Assistant of the Assistant GM

 

[Duffman955]

I don't know why I go on hockeybuzz, but they still think Phaneuf to the Islanders is still a possibility...

Oh and they said that we have a new Assistant GM by the name of Kyle Dubbers. When did we get another new Assistant GM?

thats golden

 

[Rielly4]

I don't know why I go on hockeybuzz, but they still think Phaneuf to the Islanders is still a possibility...

Oh and they said that we have a new Assistant GM by the name of Kyle Dubbers. When did we get another new Assistant GM?

If we can snag Strome for Phaneuf im all for it.

 

[TheThrill81*]

If we can snag Strome for Phaneuf im all for it.

No thanks.

 

[Faltorvo]

I think you explained yourself well, from what I understand, you don't really see any difference in LTIR or burying a guy in the minors or a buy-out. You feel they should all fall equally under cap conditions. If one counts against the cap, so should the rest and vice versa. Correct?
If so, I was just pointing out where I see a difference in the scenario's. LTIR is the only situation where the player cannot play, neither by his or the teams choice. The other situations are the player losing his game, confidence, doesn't care etc and the team saying, I choose to get rid of you and don't want to pay your salary anymore. To me, there is a difference. With you maybe not, and that's fine.

that's not entirely accurate , down in the ahl many of "those" players got their full pay, even with with buy out a player gets what? 2/3 rds of the contract value?

what I do not agree with is the cap penalty for a buy out or ahl placement, it's not just the team that's suffers for that mistake but also the paying customer.

they are either stuck with watching said player struggle or watch a team ice a product that can't use those cap resources to ice a more entertaining product.

 

[Faltorvo]

Kyle Dubbers will come in to help ease the work load off of our other new AGM Kyle Dubas!

ohhhhh awesome, I can see the headlines now

leafs AGMs are Dubas and Dubbers

sounds like a movie tittle.

 

[Faltorvo]

What does that have to do with Phaneuf playing the left side as a defenceman. ? Talk about an idiotic argument. I could see your point if I was suggesting Dion should be able to play his weak side if he is that good. But I'm not, I am saying he should be able to play his natural strong side. Name another top defenceman, never mind top, any defenceman who can't play his strong side? I don't see how it's a weak argument that he should be able to play his strong side if he is a top defenceman in this league. If Dion is our best defenceman and he can't play his strong side as you suggest...we have bigger problems on D then I thought.

neon dion just wants the inside line for his "boomer" (sic) of a shot, it's all about his stats and getten paidz ya know.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I wonder what it would take to get Patrick Wiercioch from Ottawa or even if they would deal with us.

Wiercioch wants to stay with Ottawa Senators

http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/08/07/wiercioch-wants-to-stay-with-ottawa-senators

We don't need Wiercioch at all.

Weircioch is a left D who is likely to never be more then a player who needs to insulated 5 on 5, can do decently on the PP and shouldn't see PK time.

Long term we've got Rielly, Gardiner and potentially Finn for the type of minutes Weircioch is ideally suited for.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

We don't need Wiercioch at all.

Weircioch is a left D who is likely to never be more then a player who needs to insulated 5 on 5, can do decently on the PP and shouldn't see PK time.

Long term we've got Rielly, Gardiner and potentially Finn for the type of minutes Weircioch is ideally suited for.

And Percy. We don't need any long term left-handed defensemen. The only defenseman we would need to add is one if we trade Franson and want to upgrade MacWilliam/Holzer. That guy would only need to be around 1 or 2 years... 3 tops. We could probably even trade the guy at the deadline if he's only got a short deal because we've got players who may only be a half year from being ready.

 

[Defense]

I don't know why I go on hockeybuzz, but they still think Phaneuf to the Islanders is still a possibility...

Oh and they said that we have a new Assistant GM by the name of Kyle Dubbers. When did we get another new Assistant GM?

Dubbers is a nickname for Dubas. Like Dubber would be a nickname for Dubinsky

 

[crump]

Leafs have signed players who seem to pair up with others well. Buddies if you will. Not sure if it was conscious decision or not, but...

Kessel Bozak...brah's
JVR - Frattin...Frat boys again
Komarov - Kontiola - Finnish connection
Winnik- Clarkson - local boys
Robidas - Bernier - French connection
Rielly and Gardiner..young guns on the back end
Booth - Santorelli - Florida and Canuck teammates
Granberg-Nylander Swedish connection if they make the team
Only leaves Lupul, Kadri, Phaneuf, Holland, Polak, Franson, Reimer that don't have clear buddies.

See what happens when you drink vodka responsibly?

 

[Rielly4]

No thanks.

Why? You think Strome is a bust?

Strome is gonna break out in a big way, signing Grabo was a mistake by them IMO.

Strome is a good young C, if we can add Strome for Phaneuf that also gives us lots of cap room and makes us younger.

Obviously i would look to add a d man after that deal but i would definitely move Phaneuf for Strome 1 for 1... I would try to get more if i could, but if not i would do Phaneuf for Strome undoubtedly and im not a Phaneuf hater.

 

[TheThrill81*]

Why? You think Strome is a bust?

No, because I'm not overvaluing him like you are. And he hasn't proven anything.

Strome is a good young C, if we can add Strome for Phaneuf that also gives us lots of cap room and makes us younger.

Younger =/= better. And cap room to sign who exactly? To replace the crater-sized hole after trading Phaneuf? We end up addressing a need that shouldn't have been in the first place.

Obviously i would look to add a d man after that deal but i would definitely move Phaneuf for Strome 1 for 1... I would try to get more if i could, but if not i would do Phaneuf for Strome undoubtedly and im not a Phaneuf hater.

Unless you're advocating to blow things up and tank hard, there is no logical reason to trade Phaneuf. Let it go.

 

[RLF]

that's not entirely accurate , down in the ahl many of "those" players got their full pay, even with with buy out a player gets what? 2/3 rds of the contract value?

what I do not agree with is the cap penalty for a buy out or ahl placement, it's not just the team that's suffers for that mistake but also the paying customer.

they are either stuck with watching said player struggle or watch a team ice a product that can't use those cap resources to ice a more entertaining product.

"don't want to pay your salary anymore"...was not meant to be taken quite that literally. I had explained my point more in depth earlier in the thread and why LTIR is different.imo

Yes, you can get stuck with players that are not performing. That is the idea of cap management though. If you can just buy-out players or send them down and remove them from the cap...why even bother with a cap then?

 

[RLF]

No, because I'm not overvaluing him like you are. And he hasn't proven anything.



Younger =/= better. And cap room to sign who exactly? To replace the crater-sized hole after trading Phaneuf? We end up addressing a need that shouldn't have been in the first place.



Unless you're advocating to blow things up and tank hard, there is no logical reason to trade Phaneuf. Let it go.

There are logical reasons to trade Dion, you just may not agree with them. No doubt Dion is a very good d-man, but there are things to consider.

1) If the intent is to see if Gardiner can be a #2-3 and Rielly be a #1-2 defenceman, then Dion eating up 23-25 mins a night on the top pair means at least one of these guys will probably not get the proper opportunity to show what they are capable of. If Rielly/Gardiner are given the opportunity and minutes, then your paying Dion $7mil to be a #2-4 d-man. What will Rielly get if he proves to be a #1?
2) Dion's ability to lead by example on the ice in pressure situations has to be questioned, even by the biggest Phaneuf supporter.
3) Dion may be worth his contract now, but will he be in 3-4 years? Especially if he continues to struggle in meaningful games and fails to lead his team to the playoffs or struggles in the playoffs again. Plus, age and wear and tear may start to catch up with him. If any of this happens and the Leafs want to move him, what is the likelihood another team wants a d-man with 3-4 years left at $7mil who is on the decline or doesn't perform well under pressure? The return would be brutal compared to current return.

Not saying do that trade, just saying there is logic to trading him, but probably logic you don't agree with.

 

[Cor]

1) Rielly and Phaneuf, Gardiner leads the second pairing. You can move Dion to the 2nd PP if you want. Not that hard.
2) Yzerman was questioned, Sundin was questioned. Every leader is questioned until their team accomplishes something. There has always been a lackluster defense around him, and a lackluster team in general. Sorry he hasn't brought the cup back yet.
3) In 3-4 years, when players are making upwards of 13-15 million, yeah, I think Phaneuf will be fine at 7

 

[RLF]

1) Rielly and Phaneuf, Gardiner leads the second pairing. You can move Dion to the 2nd PP if you want. Not that hard.
2) Yzerman was questioned, Sundin was questioned. Every leader is questioned until their team accomplishes something. There has always been a lackluster defense around him, and a lackluster team in general. Sorry he hasn't brought the cup back yet.
3) In 3-4 years, when players are making upwards of 13-15 million, yeah, I think Phaneuf will be fine at 7

As I said, no one has to agree with the logic, but it still makes sense according to what side of the fence you sit

1) If Rielly takes #1...he will want at least as much as Phaneuf long term. $7mil for a #2 who plays 2nd pp could be steep.
2)Had to do with his play on the ice as I mentioned. He has not been good under pressure. No one has expected a cup yet under Dion. But playoff appearances were expected more than once...not playoff drive collapses.
3)Which players are making $13-$15 mil in 3-4 years? Maybe Stamkos, Crosby? Toews/Kane at $10.5 for 8 more years. That's a big jump to $13-$15 mil even if the cap hits $80 mil. I doubt the norm will be to have a #2-3 defenceman making $7mil in 3-4 years time. An elite D-man will be around Subban's contract $9-$10 mil most likely.

Again, I didn't say trade him, I said there is logic in the argument.

 

[RLF]

Apparently Florida is still looking for winger scoring help. With the addition of Ekblad, and young guys like Kulikov, Petrovic, Olsen, could Gudbranson be had?

If the Leafs offered Lupul and Franson...could you get Gudbranson+? Would anyone want to take a shot at this kid?

 

[Kelly]

Apparently Florida is still looking for winger scoring help. With the addition of Ekblad, and young guys like Kulikov, Petrovic, Olsen, could Gudbranson be had?

If the Leafs offered Lupul and Franson...could you get Gudbranson+? Would anyone want to take a shot at this kid?

Doubt Florida would have any interest in something like that.

I cannot see us getting a highly touted young defenseman for Lupul and Franson, Franson's value around the league I would peg @ ~ a 2nd round pick, Lupul would probably bring us back a oft-injured mid-aged borderline top 4 D, can't see us getting anything of serious value for Lupul -- as he probably holds the same or close to the same value as Franson, and we'd also would need to take salary back I would think.

If we're wanting Gudbranson -- Nylander would probably be wanted.

 

[RLF]

Doubt Florida would have any interest in something like that.

I cannot see us getting a highly touted young defenseman for Lupul and Franson, Franson's value around the league I would peg @ ~ a 2nd round pick, Lupul would probably bring us back a oft-injured mid-aged borderline top 4 D, can't see us getting anything of serious value for Lupul -- as he probably holds the same or close to the same value as Franson, and we'd also would need to take salary back I would think.

If we're wanting Gudbranson -- Nylander would probably be wanted.

I figured we would have to take back salary...was thinking Kopecky or Bergenheim(someone they would like to move).

Nylander huh? Wow, I wouldn't have put Gudbranson's value that high with his injury history. Maybe though...then I would be saying no.

 

[theIceWookie]

As I said, no one has to agree with the logic, but it still makes sense according to what side of the fence you sit

1) If Rielly takes #1...he will want at least as much as Phaneuf long term. $7mil for a #2 who plays 2nd pp could be steep.
2)Had to do with his play on the ice as I mentioned. He has not been good under pressure. No one has expected a cup yet under Dion. But playoff appearances were expected more than once...not playoff drive collapses.
3)Which players are making $13-$15 mil in 3-4 years? Maybe Stamkos, Crosby? Toews/Kane at $10.5 for 8 more years. That's a big jump to $13-$15 mil even if the cap hits $80 mil. I doubt the norm will be to have a #2-3 defenceman making $7mil in 3-4 years time. An elite D-man will be around Subban's contract $9-$10 mil most likely.

Again, I didn't say trade him, I said there is logic in the argument.

1) lot of ifs that are probably years away. Smart way to run a business, IF we hit this and this level we probably won't need this person who's integral to the way the business is running now. It probably makes sense just to cut bait with him now because once this and this happens it will be too expensive to have him in this position. We shouldn't look at the possibility that losing him now could stunt the growth of this other person we hope takes on his role later, not to mention we haven't really seen enough of this person to actually know if he can truly take over the mantle one day. Plus who knows what economic paradigms will exist years from now, we should probably just assume that the ones that exist today will be true then...

2) Hard to be good under pressure when your organization hasn't given you the necessary pieces to adequately perform and relied on ONLY you to carry an entire division. But when it inevitably fails, we'll scapegoat him because alienating one of the best employees we have is a smart thing to do.

3) Is 13-15 that much bigger? Weber makes 14 million a year, Crosby 12, Parise/Suter /Lundqvist 11 million a year, Datsyuk/Ovie 10 million, Malkin/Staal 9 million, Stamkos 8 million. All pre new CBA deals that used dummy years to pull down the averages. What would Suter/Parise get on the market now? Probably a cap hit nearing 11/12 million dollars. And all those deals were signed with a lower end ceiling. With a ceiling pushing up towards 75-80 million dollars? You bet your ass you'd see 13 million dollar deals. And 7 million dollars in three years could be what 5.5/6 is now. And we see lots of teams with two dmen hitting 5.5 and above. You have to stop thinking in pre 2013 CBA terms. That NHL doesn't exist anymore and with it are deals that cut top players down to relatively cheap cap hits. No more Hossa's getting 5.275 and Keith's getting 5.538. No more Suter's and Parise's getting a cap hit of only 7.538.

 

[Duffman955]

Doubt Florida would have any interest in something like that.

I cannot see us getting a highly touted young defenseman for Lupul and Franson, Franson's value around the league I would peg @ ~ a 2nd round pick, Lupul would probably bring us back a oft-injured mid-aged borderline top 4 D, can't see us getting anything of serious value for Lupul -- as he probably holds the same or close to the same value as Franson, and we'd also would need to take salary back I would think.

If we're wanting Gudbranson -- Nylander would probably be wanted.

Gudbranson is a pretty awful defenseman at this point in his career. If he wasnt drafted 3rd overall, he would only be played on the 3rd pairing.