You just don't understand hockey and defensive positioning. Wingers play the point and high slot. Centers play everywhere. Centers have vastly more defensive responsibility. It's not that hard to understand.
Proposal: 1st-2nd line centre to St.louis
- Thread starter Atlantics27
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You just don't understand hockey and defensive positioning. Wingers play the point and high slot. Centers play everywhere. Centers have vastly more defensive responsibility. It's not that hard to understand.
Defensive issues? What exactly does Spezza do that is lacking? I'm pretty sure you don't have a concrete basis for any of this. As for injuries, you realize he has played more games than Backes or Steen did last season right?
Vladys Gumption
Colt55
Dude, I'm not stupid. I know what responsibilities centers have versus wingers. I also know that Oshie, despite his "lesser" responsibility is much, much better defensively than Spezza. Spezza is not good defensively. Just because he's tasked with playing more ground does not make him a good defensive player, nor does it make him a better defensive player. Only a fool would think Spezza is actually better in his own end than Oshie.
Only a fool would give a winger the benefit of the doubt over a legitimate number 1 center regarding defensive responsibilities when Spezza covers twice as much area in the defensive zone than any winger. Oshie's defensive abilities are so overrated on this forum. Does he backcheck hard? Yes. Does he read seams and passing lanes particularly well? Not really. If you want to see a winger play really great defensively, please google Ryan O'Reilly. He plays for the Avalanche and is regarding as one of the best two way players despite playing winger (albeit he can play center too).
Vladys Gumption
Colt55
I'm going to put this in really simple terms for you: Jason Spezza is not good in the defensive zone at best. At his worst he's awful. Having more defensive responsibilities doesn't mean jack if you do know how to play defense. Go look at the advanced stats on Oshie's defense and then try to tell me his defense is overrated.
KingsOfCali25
Start up the Bandwagon!
I know this might be stupid to ask from a kings fan because you wouldn't want to help us get better haha. But what would it take to get Berglund to the kings? Maybe a before stastny after stastny trade if you get him or some else. Just trying to see value since I think Berglund would do great on the kings. I'm coming in peace haha
LGB51
2019 STANLEY CUP CHAMPION ST. LOUIS BLUES!
I think ther is some merit to this, I could see him being able to produce 65-70 points if he was on a pure scoring line. Unfortunately under Hitch, and in the system this team plays, we will never see Oshie get that kind of chance for a full season.
Note Worthy
History Made
Majorityof1
Registered User
So your argument is that any center is automatically better defensively than any wing because they have more defensive responsibility, regardless of how poorly they fulfill that responsibility? Yeah, argument done. I don't even have to respond. The ridiculousness of that statement speaks for itself.
BluesTraveller
Registered User
I honestly don't think Berglund would be much of a help for the Kings. You also lack a Center that would help us, because we all know Kopitar isn't available. Mike Richards is a solid guy who is having an off year, but he is more of the same and I don't think the value of Berglund is high enough to warrant Richards coming back. I know Carter had played Center, but he would never come to STL.
Back to Berglund, what about him is appealing to LA? Seems like you (and we) have enough defensive forwards.
This is spot on.
I've pointed this out a number of times. Oshie is not good at all covering his point man or keeping him from making plays. He is a very good two way player and excellent pick pocket, but has some holes in his defensive game. Spezza will be on the 4th line playing 5 minutes a game in a flash for the Blues. He doesn't cover his man very well in the offensive zone much like Patrick Berglund. Best way I can describe it. Hitch will not tolerate any creativity outside of cycling in the corners. That will hurt Spezza's chance of truly playing his game here. Much like Oshie can't showcase his offensive abilities really outside of shootouts and power plays.
I think he's lost something due to injuries, same as Roy. I watch a lot of Eastern Conference, and at times have favored the Sens. Watching him in their heyday and watching him now, he's definitely lost some quickness and agility, and it shows up in defensive play. But my main knock on Spezza though is a lot of dangerous passes that end up going the other way. Hitch would hate that crap.
I think the main issue for me is the price. No way he's worth top prospect, proven player and a pick for the Blues right now. And that might be market value for a former 'star' player, but it's not practical for this team at this moment. Signing a free agent is a much better play for improving the team, and I think if you can't do that, you maybe trade your Berglunds for futures and you go into the season hoping the right move for the right player at the right price comes up.
The only way it makes sense is if you think Spezza puts us over the top (I don't) but you see how that gamble paid off with Miller.
What's ridiculous to me is the overvaluing of other teams players when they have some 'star' reputation. In another thread, people were suggesting Pietro+ for Malkin. I don't get it. How is that not more or less a straight up trade? A young, Norris-mentioned D-man, for an aging, oft-injured winger whose main skill is his shot and who only really seems to excel when he is on a line with the best player in the league? I get that there's established asking prices for these guys but they don't necessarily make sense.
And lastly, other teams go farther than the Blues with younger talent playing a huge role. Look at the Bruins D the last couple years, Reilly Smith, Ben Smith, a whole lot of Ducks. The Blues need to draft better and make trades for better prospects, instead of thinking one aging vet is going to get this team over the top.
WJC_Fan
Registered User
I agree with most of what you say here but Malkin is not "made" by Crosby. This is/was a guy that was a #2 overall pick behind Ovechkin and probably should have been #1 from what we have seen from the two of them. He is still only 27yo. He has had injury issues the last two seasons but when he is on the ice, he is one of the top five players in the world. The Petro-Malkin talk is crazy because neither team would do this.
As for Spezza, I do not think that he is as good as he was but it is more the team around him the last couple of years vs. him slipping. He still had 66 pts in 75 games which is not too shabby and not Derek Roy-like production. To me, it comes down to what we have to move. We are getting close so moving a core piece like and Oshie or Shattenkirk does not make a ton of sense unless you replace the spot in free agency.
We need a playmaker to plug between Schwartz and Tarasenko and it would be ideal if we could keep the Oshie/Backes/Steen line intact.
Going to be an interesting off-season
KingsOfCali25
Start up the Bandwagon!
I think Berglund would be a better option for our 3rd line center spot than Stoll, where he doesn't have to be counted on like a 1 or 2 center and just can use his big body to play a better shut down role. I know you guys need a center but I was thinking after you guys sign stastny or trade for Spezza. Do you guys have any secondary needs that could be filled or maybe know how much an offer sheet would cost?
LA needs to find a Stoll replacement as he only has one year left after this year and our other centers are small scorer's and not big shutdown guys. Berglund seems like the escape goat in years past and a change of place might work out well for him.
the Malkin thing is a bit of devil's advocate overstatement, granted. But he also missed significant time four seasons ago and a bit of the season before that. That's one season out of 5 he's been healthy and two of those he missed half the season or more. The funny thing is, the general conclusion of that conversation was that no team could reasonably afford him, which speaks to my point. In hockey terms--not gutting your team--the price for him is too high.
At least he's a legit star, Spezza not so much. He's a guy who's good at certain things and his worth is relative to team needs/system. Is he really a prospect and pick better than Berglund? I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it's a no-brainer.
Multimoodia
Sicker Than Usual
Play defense at all competently in either the neutral zone or in the defensive zone?
Have you watched Spezza? Look I like the guy and all but he's got some flaws, some pretty serious ones which is why Ottawa is considering moving him. And one of those flaws is his...let us say disinterest...in playing defense.
I don't doubt the guy's compete level, but he obviously prefers to expend his energy in the offensive zone which is part of why his play on the other side of the ice is often lacking. And he's just not very good at it. He plays one way when the puck is being driven forward and is a lot more...timid when it is coming back.
Couple of points here:
In regards to the injuries themselves: Yes Spezza played in more games, but he was not terribly effective in more than a few of those games due to his groin injury. I understand playing through pain, but there were games where he was simply ineffective. I know it made his already shaky defense pass bad and go right to abysmal.
We still have the fact that he missed the entire previous season with a back injury. True, lockout and all that but he still missed it.
In regards to the amount he played vs Backes and Steen:
With Backes' play style that is to be expected, he is going to miss games simply because the body cannot take that sort of pounding for a long period of time. I could get in to why Backes should be starting to alter his play-style but this really isn't the best place.
Steen we know is an injury risk and the Blues frankly overpaid to keep that injury risk on their team due to him being the best 2-way forward on the team. I'm not sure it's something I would have done, but I understand why they did.
Regardless, if Steen were to be coming on to the market right now I'm not sure I would want the Blues trading all that much for him either. Certainly he has impressive potential and his game has done the usual Swedish late bloomer thing, but those concussions are worrisome.
(tldr)
So to sum up:
The Blues should have the following concerns with Spezza:
1) Injury history: How much are his previous injuries a concern, in particular for a player on the wrong side of 30?
2) Defensive play: While the Blues cannot and should not expect him to magically become a 2-way forward, can Spezza play enough defense to continue to play center in the Blues' system? If not will the Blues be willing to adapt their system enough?
3) Reaction to the Western Conference: The West, in particular the teams the Blues play, tend to be very physical teams. Spezza's health as well as his style of play may or may not mesh with that particular issue. If not then we have a player who becomes increasingly gun-shy which you do not want in your #1 center.
4) Cost: How much are the Blues going to be required to give up and can they live with removing those pieces?
5) Re-signability: If the Blues give up a decent price for Spezza and he turns around and either demands 8+ for the next 7 seasons or wants to go to a different team how much will that affect their plans?
6) Other possibilities on the Market: Obviously Stastny should still be target #1. His offensive capabilities are not far off of Spezza's (the current Spezza) and his defensive play is head and shoulders better. Additionally since the Blues have a team set up to where they plan to roll at least 2 primary lines, the other center is not required to be a Malkin/Crosby/Stamkos/Getzlaf and any good #2/marginal #1 should fit the Blues fine.
I like Spezza and all, but thinking he is the only other option to Stastny (or, dog forbid, preferring him to Stastny) is a bit short-sighted.
LGB51
2019 STANLEY CUP CHAMPION ST. LOUIS BLUES!
I totally agree with you, on the mentality the team has, as far as it pertains too signing aging vets. The question I usually ask then is, when was the last time this theory worked for any team? In which case I guess the answer would be the 2013-2014 NY Rangers with Martin St. Louis, a ECF for a team built the way they are is a pretty successful season even if it goes no farther then their (which I think they will make the Stanley Cup Finals, The King wont be denied this year from playing for Lord Stanley's Cup.)
You also raise a good point about Blues fans overrating other teams "star" players while underrating ours at the same time. There is some truth to this, although most of our players are thought of to highly by the fans of this team.
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I actually think we overvalue our players. I pretty much think our first line is the best 2nd line in the NHL. I am from STL, I have followed the Blues since the mid-'80's, I got super excited about them this season, but I still thought it was silly any pundit was predicting the Blues to win the Cup. All you gotta do is watch Getzlaf cut through our team like warm butter to see we don't have anyone close to his level. Frankly, passing on players like Toews and Lucic in the draft is why we are even considering whether to overpay for a 2nd line center. You can't botch your chances at stud players and compete at the highest level.
As far as the Rangers go, they are the team I see the most since I live up here. The reason they are succeeding isn't because they traded for St. Louis, although his mother passing away has given them something to rally around. St. Louis hasn't produced much until the last few PO games. I think Vigneault gets the credit. How does a guy like Benoit Pouliot go from barely being in the league to looking like Claude Lemieux? (Hyperbole but he's been crazy clutch). A coach who recognizes and facilitates what a player can do. Staal returning to form is huge, people forget how good he was a few years ago. Torts toughened these guys up, Alain has unleashed their more skill side. Still think this is the Habs year though...
I think a better example of a trade for a vet being a difference maker is the Kings getting Carter.
The best news for the Blues is that both Schwartz and Tarasenko look like real deal players. The bad news is probably we can't get that magic pill center and may do something stupid in the attempt to do so.
As far as the Rangers go, they are the team I see the most since I live up here. The reason they are succeeding isn't because they traded for St. Louis, although his mother passing away has given them something to rally around. St. Louis hasn't produced much until the last few PO games. I think Vigneault gets the credit. How does a guy like Benoit Pouliot go from barely being in the league to looking like Claude Lemieux? (Hyperbole but he's been crazy clutch). A coach who recognizes and facilitates what a player can do. Staal returning to form is huge, people forget how good he was a few years ago. Torts toughened these guys up, Alain has unleashed their more skill side. Still think this is the Habs year though...
I think a better example of a trade for a vet being a difference maker is the Kings getting Carter.
The best news for the Blues is that both Schwartz and Tarasenko look like real deal players. The bad news is probably we can't get that magic pill center and may do something stupid in the attempt to do so.
LGB51
2019 STANLEY CUP CHAMPION ST. LOUIS BLUES!
That's what I said in my last sentence, I actually believe most Blues fans think too highly of some of our players. However I think Shatty doesn't get enough praise (and too much criticism for) his defensive game.
Vladys Gumption
Colt55
The thing to remember with Pouliot is that the talent has always been there. He's just wildly inconsistent. He looked absolutely dominant in spurts with both Tampa and Boston, but he balanced it out with his periods of disappearing.
BluesTraveller
Registered User
Gotcha. Why not re-sign Stoll?
I really hope we keep Berglund. I think he starts coming into his own in the next few years. He also seems to play well in tournaments, and we missed him in the Blackhawks series for 4 games and when he came in for 5 and 6 he wasn't 100%.
If the offer sheet were for 4 million or more, Armstrong might take the 1st and 3rd.
Our big weaknesses beyond Center, are we need a 2nd pairing LHD (not sure if Cole will ever step up and take that role), as well the lowest rated prospect pool of all 30 NHL teams according to HF (http://goo.gl/iuZuMX).
Majorityof1
Registered User
Nice post here. Sums up my feelings well. I want to add a bit. Regarding previous injuries, it is not just the number of games missed but the type of injury sustained. Some injuries heal and they are done. Some injuries never fully heal. The player comes back and plays, but he can never get back to that same level. I am afraid the latter may be the case with Spezza's back.
He had a good season in '10-11, but got hurt the next year and missed most of the season. When he came back, his already spotty defense was worse. As Multimoodia said, he just showed no interest in it. This makes sense if his back hurt and he was saving his strength/pain tolerance for offense. A sore back can be degenerative, especially as you age. If his back is still bothering him, it is a serious concern, and a possible reason for Ottawa to trade him. This is something nobody is addressing. Why is Ottawa running this guy out of town if he is so great. They have good center depth, but that doesn't mean you toss a 70 point guy in the trash. There may be something they are hiding.
If his back still is a problem (pure speculation), and it gets worse, it will eventually diminish his offensive game. So it is more than the fact he is injury prone, which is bad, but that the previous injuries may be taking a toll on him physically and diminishing his ability to compete.
Don't hold your breath...
If we could get a center - depending how we get it (mainly if we had to move a d-man) - I would probably like a guy like Jake Muzzin from LA if we traded Berglund.
