Proposal: 1st-2nd line centre to St.louis

[OCTA8ON*]

You misunderstand.
I am completely in favor of giving up a bit of defense for offense, however I have noticed that the Blues seem reluctant to do so in their style of play. Hitchcock bent a bit this year (thankfully) and the defense was allowed to a free-er hand to jump into the play when they saw an opportunity. By the end of the year this had been curtailed, whether that is result of injuries, result of the team just trying to make it to the playoffs, etc. I have no idea.

As such I have no issue, if the Blues doctors believe that Spezza can realistically play 70+ games/season (and additional games in the postseason) in the West, with trading for Spezza as long as Armstrong manages to not panic and thus give up far too much.
What concerns me is that Spezza has not had the best of health, that his game may not translate well with a Blues team which is primarily defensive focused, that Armstrong may end up panicking again and giving up far too much for a 30-year old player with an injury history whose deal expires in 2015 and may think he is worth updwards of 8 million/season.
Also, the trade has to not kill the balance/chemistry/etc. of the team.

I like the idea of Spezza, it's simply that I'm not sure how well the idea of Spezza is going to blend with the reality of Spezza.

I don't follow this logic. Sure, the blues were one of the best teams offensively during the first half of the season, but the playoffs are a completely different beast. Other teams do place more significance in the post season and don't really buckle down when playing the blues in the regular season. When you watch the playoffs, you can tell that teams tighten up their positioning much more than the regular season. Even the types of goals we score during the regular season as different than the types that are scored during the playoffs.

 

[Old Blueser]

Let's be honest here guys, this talk of Spezza just being mildly better than Roy is pretty ridiculous. Roy can't hold Spezza's jock at this point. I'd be concerned about giving up Rattie in the deal because then we're basically left with no offensive prospects. That's unacceptable. Why Armstrong is allergic to signing a key free agent I'll never know. Stastny makes more sense than Spezza, so I'm expecting us to give up a Pejorative Slured return for Spezza.

not that he is mildly better but that he offers a lot of same issues/skills. Not great defensively, not physical, hurt a lot. Good passer, much more mobile and creative. he is a much more skilled player but he doesn't play the sort of game that Hitch tends to favor, he isn't durable and his best days are behind him. Pass.

 

[ARoggy94]

not that he is mildly better but that he offers a lot of same issues/skills. Not great defensively, not physical, hurt a lot. Good passer, much more mobile and creative. he is a much more skilled player but he doesn't play the sort of game that Hitch tends to favor, he isn't durable and his best days are behind him. Pass.

If you're looking for stellar defence on top of Spezza's offensive ability than you should be focusing on trying to get Kopitar or Toews...

i.e. I think your expectations are a too high.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

not that he is mildly better but that he offers a lot of same issues/skills. Not great defensively, not physical, hurt a lot. Good passer, much more mobile and creative. he is a much more skilled player but he doesn't play the sort of game that Hitch tends to favor, he isn't durable and his best days are behind him. Pass.

So he plays 75 games last season and all of a sudden he has injury issues? Sure, he had back surgery during the shortened season, but he still played more regular season games last season than Steen. This double standard is ridiculous. I can't believe people's standards are this high.

One more important note: Spezza's salary base is only $4 million next year (despite a $7 million cap), so we won't actually be paying him anymore than Oshie.

 

[Daley Tarasenkshow]

So he plays 75 games last season and all of a sudden he has injury issues? Sure, he had back surgery during the shortened season, but he still played more regular season games last season than Steen. This double standard is ridiculous. I can't believe people's standards are this high.

One more important note: Spezza's salary base is only $4 million next year (despite a $7 million cap), so we won't actually be paying him anymore than Oshie.

Spezza missed nearly the entire 12/13 season if I'm not mistaken.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

Spezza missed nearly the entire 12/13 season if I'm not mistaken.

That's what I said. He had back surgery that year, but last year he played 75 games, which is more than what Steen did, and no one complains about Steen's consistent injuries every year.

 

[Majorityof1]

Hfboards Logic: Spezza isn't good enough defensively. Thus, whatever offensive capabilities he may have don't matter, even though our issue in the post season was offensive production and power play logistics.

Here are some highlights from this season

[Video's deleted for space]

I can't believe people are even putting Roy and Spezza in the same sentence. Just wow...

So you found 4 videos of Spezza making nice plays. Those weren't even that great of plays. I hope those weren't the best available and instead only the first 4 you found. The goal on Halak bounced off Bouwmeester's stick. If it hadn't, it would have been saved. No way he is so good he was intending to deflect it off Bouwmeester's stick into the corner. I could easily find a dozen plays of Oshie to make him look like an offensive juggernaut. I might even be able to find 4 of Ott. Neither of those guys can carry our offensive load. And you are not posting the 68 times he held the puck too long trying to make the play only to turn it over (3rd most among centers in the NHL this year). Or the 100s of times he was out of defensive position. Not one Spezza defender is addressing the fact that his own team is looking to dump him. Change of scenery can help a player. However, when a team actively tries to trade a 70 point guy, there is something wrong. The guys who have watched him every play don't want him.

I'm not denying he is a great offensive player. His point totals speak for themselves. Having watched him, for more than 4 plays, the eye test shows his creativity and skill. I just don't think he is the second coming. There are serious, serious issues with him (turnovers, D, injuries, and contract status). These need to be kept in mind when figuring out a trade, or god forbid pulling the trigger before we even talk to Stasny.

 

[Note Worthy]

That's what I said. He had back surgery that year, but last year he played 75 games, which is more than what Steen did, and no one complains about Steen's consistent injuries every year.

Oh but we do.

When he was on his hot scoring streak almost everyone on this board stated they were waiting for his inevitable injury to stop his goal streak.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

not that he is mildly better but that he offers a lot of same issues/skills. Not great defensively, not physical, hurt a lot. Good passer, much more mobile and creative. he is a much more skilled player but he doesn't play the sort of game that Hitch tends to favor, he isn't durable and his best days are behind him. Pass.

I get the injury concerns and the contract issue, but for the right price we should absolutely be in on him. He's that supreme offensive talent that we've been missing. He shouldn't be compared to Roy because is vastly superior. Roy was a flat out liability defensively. I know Spezza can have defensive issues at time, but he can play adequately in the defensive end. We can shelter him with Schwartz and Tarasenko, while at the same time finally giving ourselves that top shelf offensive line we've been in need of. We have the defense to compensate. It all comes down to what the price is. He should be the primary backup to Stastny.

 

[Majorityof1]

I know Spezza can have defensive issues at time, but he can play adequately in the defensive end.

No, he really can't. He is horrendous defensively. That is why Ottawa wants to trade him. This isn't a contract situation or a cap situation. This is a guy who isn't getting the job done and needs to go to make the team better situation. This is an Blues trading Chris Stewart situation, only worse since Spezza is way better offensively than Stewart ever was.

We can shelter him with Schwartz and Tarasenko, while at the same time finally giving ourselves that top shelf offensive line we've been in need of.

We are looking for a top center in order to boost Schwartz and Tarasenko's offensive production, not to give them more defensive responsibilities. In the Blues system, the center has the big defensive responsibilities. Its why Sobotka flourished at center and Berglund, not so much. Changing that will only hamper the kids and the line as a whole.

It all comes down to what the price is.

Agreed. If we don't have to give up any untouchables, Shatty, Rattie, or a 1st, I'm all in. Otherwise, I hope we really exhaust all of free agency, not just Stasny, for other options.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

No, he really can't. He is horrendous defensively. That is why Ottawa wants to trade him. This isn't a contract situation or a cap situation. This is a guy who isn't getting the job done and needs to go to make the team better situation. This is an Blues trading Chris Stewart situation, only worse since Spezza is way better offensively than Stewart ever was.

I think we all could have lived with Stewart's defensive issues if he actually produced offensively like he was capable of. That's the same way I feel with Spezza. If he actually produces offensively I can live with his defensive issues. I will admit he was truly horrific in the defensive zone this year, but that was by far his worst year defensively. I don't expect him to be that bad again.

We are looking for a top center in order to boost Schwartz and Tarasenko's offensive production, not to give them more defensive responsibilities. In the Blues system, the center has the big defensive responsibilities. Its why Sobotka flourished at center and Berglund, not so much. Changing that will only hamper the kids and the line as a whole.
I didn't mean for it to come off as us using Tarasenko and Schwartz to shelter him by making them shoulder the defensive load. They are both puck possession machines. If you possess the puck and play in the offensive zone, the other team can't do the same to you. He's a very good puck possession player, and quite frankly he'd be our best player in terms of the ability to set up Schwartz and Tarasenko. Plus, the SOB line would still be our shutdown line. The Schwartz-Spezza-Tarasenko line would be our primary offensive line.


Agreed. If we don't have to give up any untouchables, Shatty, Rattie, or a 1st, I'm all in. Otherwise, I hope we really exhaust all of free agency, not just Stasny, for other options.
Spezza is not my first choice, but he's still a viable option. Stastny is still my preference, and it's not close. I'm just spitballing backup plans really.

Go easy on me!

 

[OCTA8ON*]

So you found 4 videos of Spezza making nice plays. Those weren't even that great of plays. I hope those weren't the best available and instead only the first 4 you found. .

+ +

Only a Blues fan would compare Oshie with Spezza. The over perception of our player's current abilities is one of the fundamental reasons why St. Louis hasn't gotten past the first round since 2011-12.

 

[DeuceNine]

I'm not denying he is a great offensive player. His point totals speak for themselves. Having watched him, for more than 4 plays, the eye test shows his creativity and skill. I just don't think he is the second coming. There are serious, serious issues with him (turnovers, D, injuries, and contract status). These need to be kept in mind when figuring out a trade, or god forbid pulling the trigger before we even talk to Stasny.

We have an entire team dedicated to effectively a defensive system. We can afford to have one guy that's more offense-oriented. Unlike Ottawa, we have a team that can cover for those occasional mishaps -- which I suspect will happen less frequently once he's absorbed our system.

+ +

Only a Blues fan would compare Oshie with Spezza. The over perception of our player's current abilities is one of the fundamental reasons why St. Louis hasn't gotten past the first round since 2011-12.

So Army does this too? Your comment sounds slick but it makes no sense.

However, what does make sense is the idea of trading a shootout specialist for someone that can be more productive across the board.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

We have an entire team dedicated to effectively a defensive system. We can afford to have one guy that's more offense-oriented. Unlike Ottawa, we have a team that can cover for those occasional mishaps -- which I suspect will happen less frequently once he's absorbed our system.



So Army does this too? Your comment sounds slick but it makes no sense.

However, what does make sense is the idea of trading a shootout specialist for someone that can be more productive across the board.

Apparently on this forum, Jason ****ing Spezza isn't good enough for our team. What a joke. He's better than any of our forwards, and there is a damn good reason his salary cap hit is $7 million. But no, he isn't perfect and had back surgery 2 seasons ago, even though he played Backes or Steen this season.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

more games than Backes or Steen this season*

 

[Vladys Gumption]

+ +

Only a Blues fan would compare Oshie with Spezza. The over perception of our player's current abilities is one of the fundamental reasons why St. Louis hasn't gotten past the first round since 2011-12.

His point went completely over your head. He was calling you out for posting a couple highlights to show how great Spezza is. That's all they are, highlights. It's just a snapshot of a very small portion of the game. He wasn't wrong when he said you can find highlights that make Oshie look like a super star. Context is pretty important.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

We have an entire team dedicated to effectively a defensive system. We can afford to have one guy that's more offense-oriented. Unlike Ottawa, we have a team that can cover for those occasional mishaps -- which I suspect will happen less frequently once he's absorbed our system.

I think what he was trying to say was that Spezza shouldn't be the primary target, and that we shouldn't do anything until we know what Stastny's status is.

 

[Majorityof1]

+ +

Only a Blues fan would compare Oshie with Spezza. The over perception of our player's current abilities is one of the fundamental reasons why St. Louis hasn't gotten past the first round since 2011-12.

No, I am the one that should be shaking my head and saying help You totally missed the point. I was not comparing Oshie to Spezza. I was saying that showing a few youtube plays is a bad way to argue in favor of a guy. Oshie makes a few amazing plays. He just doesn't do it consistently. I even stated he can't carry the offensive load. I meant that I could find video clips of him making great plays. Strung together with no other context, it would make him look incredible, better than what he is. I used those guys because they are clearly not as good offensively as Spezza. I thought that was obvious when I included Ott.

Oshie and Spezza are different types of players. I would not compare them. It wouldn't be fair to Oshie. He can't compete with Spezza offensively. Since he actually knows which end of the ice is the defensive zone he has to spend energy on defensive and be in position to do so. Granted, Spezza must spend some energy wandering around looking lost when he doesn't have the puck. But, you know, not as much as actually playing defense.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

Oshie and Spezza are different types of players. I would not compare them. It wouldn't be fair to Oshie. He can't compete with Spezza offensively. Since he actually knows which end of the ice is the defensive zone he has to spend energy on defensive and be in position to do so. Granted, Spezza must spend some energy wandering around looking lost when he doesn't have the puck. But, you know, not as much as actually playing defense.

Believe it or not, Spezza actually plays more defense than Oshie does. Oshie may backcheck harder, but Spezza, after all, is a center, which means that he has to defend below the hashmarks and help out the defensemen in his own zone. Wingers only have to cover their pointman and high slot when the puck is weak side. Anyways, I think people are overrating defense here. How many times have people complimented Patrick Kane's defense? They are too mesmerized by his game winners, game after game.

 

[OCTA8ON*]

We have an entire team dedicated to effectively a defensive system. We can afford to have one guy that's more offense-oriented. Unlike Ottawa, we have a team that can cover for those occasional mishaps -- which I suspect will happen less frequently once he's absorbed our system.



So Army does this too? Your comment sounds slick but it makes no sense.

However, what does make sense is the idea of trading a shootout specialist for someone that can be more productive across the board.

He obviously trusted our core group of players that they would take us to the promise land, and I'm still arguing that Oshie is a pretender until proven otherwise. That's why Army was content with keeping Oshie on the first line. The bottom line is: Oshie is an AVERAGE first line player. He would be an excellent second line player. Average first liners don't give you cups. I'm also including Backes and Steen in this rant too.

 

[DatDude44]

Believe it or not, Spezza actually plays more defense than Oshie does. Oshie may backcheck harder, but Spezza, after all, is a center, which means that he has to defend below the hashmarks and help out the defensemen in his own zone. Wingers only have to cover their pointman and high slot when the puck is weak side. Anyways, I think people are overrating defense here. How many times have people complimented Patrick Kane's defense? They are too mesmerized by his game winners, game after game.

Exactly.... We need guys with high offensive power. Enough of watching the hawks control the play... a line with spezza, schwartz and tarasenko would dominate the play and score some freakin goals.... especially if jaybo and petro are out there with them.


We aint beating chicago until we can score

 

[OCTA8ON*]

His point went completely over your head. He was calling you out for posting a couple highlights to show how great Spezza is. That's all they are, highlights. It's just a snapshot of a very small portion of the game. He wasn't wrong when he said you can find highlights that make Oshie look like a super star. Context is pretty important.

The videos were just a reminder to some of our forum members of what Spezza can do because apparently Spezza's well deserved reputation has lost all value due to minor issues people keep blowing up. They weren't meant to prove anything per se. Just for fun.

I don't get why people on this forum take every sentence so seriously. It's such an argument fest in here. Can't people just relax?

 

[OCTA8ON*]

Exactly.... We need guys with high offensive power. Enough of watching the hawks control the play... a line with spezza, schwartz and tarasenko would dominate the play and score some freakin goals.... especially if jaybo and petro are out there with them.


We aint beating chicago until we can score

Wow. One of the first members here I can actually agree with. In case everyone else forgot, in order to win a hockey game, you have to SCORE more goals than the other team. The Chicago Blackhawks have not forgotten this, which is why they invested in the best group of forwards in the entire league. We don't have the firepower to beat them until we can get a real #1 center like Spezza.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

Believe it or not, Spezza actually plays more defense than Oshie does. Oshie may backcheck harder, but Spezza, after all, is a center, which means that he has to defend below the hashmarks and help out the defensemen in his own zone. Wingers only have to cover their pointman and high slot when the puck is weak side. Anyways, I think people are overrating defense here. How many times have people complimented Patrick Kane's defense? They are too mesmerized by his game winners, game after game.

Uh...what? Shouldn't you be saying Spezza tries to play defense. Oshie is vastly better in his own zone than Spezza. It's not close.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

The videos were just a reminder to some of our forum members of what Spezza can do because apparently Spezza's well deserved reputation has lost all value due to minor issues people keep blowing up. They weren't meant to prove anything per se. Just for fun.

I don't get why people on this forum take every sentence so seriously. It's such an argument fest in here. Can't people just relax?

Defensive issues and injuries are not minor issues. Not even close to minor. They are absolutely legitimate and serious. Your four videos don't change that.