Post-Game Talk (GBU): Zemgus defeats the tank

[Jacob582]

And not to dig at you guys, but why did you give up Gerbe? I absolutely love his style of play and think he's our best forward right now. That probably speaks to how terrible of a team we have, but he's all hustle. He forechecks hard on the PK (I always notice him) and he backchecks well too.

Gerbe requested out because he couldn't handle any more of Jay McKee's short jokes.

In all seriousness, Gerbe complained publicly about his ice time. Our GM, Darcy Regier could hold a grudge against players, so he cut him loose. Sabres didn't have great depth, but it didn't look like there was space for Gerbe on the top 2 lines. Gerbe struggled some, coming back from surgery.

We were also trying to get bigger up front as we had Ennis and Gerbe on the team. Sabres traded Paul Byron (5' 6") a few years earlier for similar reasons.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

Can we all agree that in a perfect world Tyler Ennis and Cody Hodgson both should not be on this team in 2-3 years and move on? Ennis is always going to tunnel vision offensively and Hodgson apparently doesn't know how to skate and track the puck at the same time.

This is how I see it.

If either are on the team 3 years from now, our younger players haven't developed like they should.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Cut and paste from the other thread...

I will avoid the whole debate over what is "expendable" and be more practical about the issue.

Neither Ennis or Hodgson are the ideal choices for having a significant role at C on a Cup contender. If they aren't contributing as a C, neither are ideal as a tough, heavy, physical, goal-scoring winger that we and probably Murray would envision on a Cup contender. Both got contracts (that I argued against) based on hopeful contributions that neither will probably make as a Sabre. Both of them could be traded, if other prospects develop as hoped, without any set back to the building of a Cup contending roster.

They are in the same basic boat for me, and I don't care if they stay or go as long as Murray gets fair value in trade, or they can contribute secondary scoring in a lesser role on a better roster. The first few games of this season wasn't at all necessary for me to think this way.

 

[mikemcburn]

Let's demote our most talented forward to third line wing. Never change Jame. Keep grinding that axe.

Ennis is not the Sabres "most talented forward". Not even close.

He's got heart and speed; a combination any team needs, and also a combination that can be deployed throughout the lineup (wing/center, any line) in a pinch.

But heart and speed alone do not a top 6 forward make. Ennis doesn't demonstrate the vision and play-making talents to consistently generate offense, or the hand and shot of a sniper. He will have the odd shift, even a great period, where he and his linemates are especially clicking along, but that's pretty much the same with any of the guys at this level of play (heck, even Mitchell had a boomer last night that for a split second made him look like a 1st line sniper;-)).

Ennis is serviceable in the top 6 right now, on this team at this time. But really, I think that heart for the game and speed on his feet are prime for a 3rd line checking role. Eventually, as the Sabres youth develops into their own and the team can plug real talent into the top 6 rather than serviceable pieces.

 

[mikemcburn]

I would attribute both of those players struggles to their center.

Fair point. And I've read the comments so far to the effect of Ennis' solo efforts, so won't repeat.

I'd add though, that I'm sure neither Moulson or Stafford were helped last night by having a center who cannot be relied upon in the dot. It just doesn't help puck possession when a guy is winning his first (and only) face-off in OT, and only taking 7 on the night because he's habitually poor (which puts his winger Stafford out of position from the face-off to cover). Ennis' 6th face-off was in the d-zone, and as another loss, went straight into the back of our net for the game tying goal. I imagine that's demoralizing for him and his wingers too.

But all that said, it's been my experience that often enough when 1 guy is trying too hard to do everything solo it's either because he's having a poor outing, owns it personally and is trying to will himself out it, or because he's trying to compensate for lack luster wingers in the first place. I suspect last night was a combination of both for Ennis.

And I say that because his veteran and so-called "leader" wingers ought to have talking him down on the bench, working with him between shifts to get a jive going. They ought to be both experienced enough to identify what's going on with their center, and enough of leaders to call him on it.

Ennis *may* have been alone out there on the ice due his own play, but he wasn't alone on the bench - that's where his two vet wingers of some measurable talent are at least equally responsible for how the line as a whole is functioning.

The MES line, working or flopping, is not all on Ennis. By a long shot.

 

[Sabre the Win]

I know that win last night doesn't bode well for the tank but screw the tank. We needed that win to keep morale up and keep the compete level going. In reality I rather have the prospects we already have turn into stars than bottoming out another year. I'm not cheering the tank on at all this year. If it happens. then so be it. Tired of seeing this team in the gutter. Happy with the win.

 

[kenfury]

Howdy! Canes fan coming in peace. I was at the trainwreck/game last night.

And not to dig at you guys, but why did you give up Gerbe? I absolutely love his style of play and think he's our best forward right now. That probably speaks to how terrible of a team we have, but he's all hustle. He forechecks hard on the PK (I always notice him) and he backchecks well too.

Cheers, and please let us have McDavid.

No you get worst record but we come in second and win the lotto.

Three things with Gerbe; size, complaining about ice time, and he had a pretty serious back injury and there were legit concerns about him coming back.

 

[ZeroPT*]

I know that win last night doesn't bode well for the tank but screw the tank. We needed that win to keep morale up and keep the compete level going. In reality I rather have the prospects we already have turn into stars than bottoming out another year. I'm not cheering the tank on at all this year. If it happens. then so be it. Tired of seeing this team in the gutter. Happy with the win.

So you want mediocrity? I rather have the prospects we have develop into stars too but the reality is, that won't happen. Not all prospects will pan out. Fasching might bust, Baptiste might bust, Zadorov might bust, Reinhart might bust, etc.. You just never know.

To all the non tankers, think about this. Would finishing last place last year and getting Reinhart be worse than finishing where Carolina finished and getting Fleury? Sometimes, the best way to improve is to take a couple steps back. We have direction unlike the countless years of mediocrity.

 

[Sabre the Win]

So you want mediocrity? I rather have the prospects we have develop into stars too but the reality is, that won't happen. Not all prospects will pan out. Fasching might bust, Baptiste might bust, Zadorov might bust, Reinhart might bust, etc.. You just never know.

To all the non tankers, think about this. Would finishing last place last year and getting Reinhart be worse than finishing where Carolina finished and getting Fleury? Sometimes, the best way to improve is to take a couple steps back. We have direction unlike the countless years of mediocrity.

I am not quite following you. I wouldn't be witnessing mediocrity if our prospects panned out and our true number 1 center was already in the system. The "might" bust logic I can't understand either because if that's the case than McDavid and Eichel "might" bust because nothing is a for sure thing. LA found Kopitar 11th overall so finishing were Carolina finished is just bad scouting.

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

So you want mediocrity? I rather have the prospects we have develop into stars too but the reality is, that won't happen. Not all prospects will pan out. Fasching might bust, Baptiste might bust, Zadorov might bust, Reinhart might bust, etc.. You just never know.

To all the non tankers, think about this. Would finishing last place last year and getting Reinhart be worse than finishing where Carolina finished and getting Fleury? Sometimes, the best way to improve is to take a couple steps back. We have direction unlike the countless years of mediocrity.

Getting tired of this false dilemma. It's possible to win the cup with the core we already have drafted if they develop properly, it's possible to be utter **** with Connor McDavid if they don't. It's not necessary to tank. It might be easier to tank, but even that is highly questionable. What is absolutely necessary however is to develop our talent into NHL players.

To all you tankers, think about this. Sam Reinhart just said that the biggest adjustment for him is strength, not getting used to the speed as most prospects say. Reasons? According to Reinhart he is so great that he is already playing at the same pace as NHL players, in reality he is on a team that is not able to play at NHL pace and so finds the speed easier to adjust too.

That is the hidden cost of 'the tank': We have a team that plays at a level that is not NHL level, and no one will ever learn to play NHL hockey on a team that plays at AHL speed. We are basically throwing away a year of development, contracts, age whatever of a slew of hyper important prospects for the chance to maybe get a really good player.

There are many other reasons why tanking is despicable as well, but that's a story for another day.

 

[ZeroPT*]

I am not quite following you. I wouldn't be witnessing mediocrity if our prospects panned out and our true number 1 center was already in the system. The "might" bust logic I can't understand either because if that's the case than McDavid and Eichel "might" bust because nothing is a for sure thing. LA found Kopitar 11th overall so finishing were Carolina finished is just bad scouting.

Our prospects won't all pan out. It doesn't work that way.

Getting tired of this false dilemma. It's possible to win the cup with the core we already have drafted if they develop properly, it's possible to be utter **** with Connor McDavid if they don't. It's not necessary to tank. It might be easier to tank, but even that is highly questionable. What is absolutely necessary however is to develop our talent into NHL players.

The core we already have? You mean prospects? Not all prospects pan out. The only players I'd be comfortable saying won't bust are elite generational talents.

Like McEichel.

To all you tankers, think about this. Sam Reinhart just said that the biggest adjustment for him is strength, not getting used to the speed as most prospects say. Reasons? According to Reinhart he is so great that he is already playing at the same pace as NHL players, in reality he is on a team that is not able to play at NHL pace and so finds the speed easier to adjust too.

That's because he doesn't need to adjust to the pace. He already thinks the game at a pro level. His hockey sense is so far advanced for his age, it's elite. He thinks the game like a pro, he needs to adjust his body. He's 100% entirely right.

That is the hidden cost of 'the tank': We have a team that plays at a level that is not NHL level, and no one will ever learn to play NHL hockey on a team that plays at AHL speed. We are basically throwing away a year of development, contracts, age whatever of a slew of hyper important prospects for the chance to maybe get a really good player.

So, he's not ready for NHL time? Sick. Send him down. If he isn't ready you send a prospect down no matter what your team's situation is. A team "tanking" has nothing to do with the readiness of a prospect.

There are many other reasons why tanking is despicable as well, but that's a story for another day.[/QUOTE]

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

That's because he doesn't need to adjust to the pace. He already thinks the game at a pro level. His hockey sense is so far advanced for his age, it's elite. He thinks the game like a pro, he needs to adjust his body. He's 100% entirely right.

This establishes that we are never going to agree. Sam Reinhart is not remotely close to being able to play hockey at NHL speed, the fact that he thinks he is is because he has been exposed to Sabres Hockey in training camp and pre-season, not because he actually is.

As for your assessment that only elite prospects are guaranteed not to bust, I disagree again. McDavid might turn out to be the biggest bust ever in hockey, there is no guarantee, Grigorenko could turn out to be better than Kopitar. No one knows. All we know is that Grigorenko belongs to the Sabres and McDavid belongs to the dreams as of right now. If all our early round draft picks bust like you are worried about, McDavid won't mean jack ****. We'd still be the worst team in the league.

We NEED for our prospect to become a competitive core with or without whomever will be at the top of the next draft. If we fail at that, and it is my opinion that we are currently not doing a good job at that in the least, the rebuild will fail. And my position is, and will forever be, that to teach young kids to play NHL hockey, they need to be brought into a NHL hockey environment. Not an AHL team that plays in the NHL. And before you call this out as hyperbole or whatever, I am talking about game pace here, not individual skill.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

Ennis should slide to wing and play next to Girgensons. Z plays the no nonsense game that Ennis could use a little of right now.

Ennis-Girgensons-Stewart
Moulson-Hodgson-Stafford
Foligno-Reinhart-Gionta

 

[Sabre the Win]

This establishes that we are never going to agree. Sam Reinhart is not remotely close to being able to play hockey at NHL speed, the fact that he thinks he is is because he has been exposed to Sabres Hockey in training camp and pre-season, not because he actually is.

As for your assessment that only elite prospects are guaranteed not to bust, I disagree again. McDavid might turn out to be the biggest bust ever in hockey, there is no guarantee, Grigorenko could turn out to be better than Kopitar. No one knows. All we know is that Grigorenko belongs to the Sabres and McDavid belongs to the dreams as of right now. If all our early round draft picks bust like you are worried about, McDavid won't mean jack ****. We'd still be the worst team in the league.

We NEED for our prospect to become a competitive core with or without whomever will be at the top of the next draft. If we fail at that, and it is my opinion that we are currently not doing a good job at that in the least, the rebuild will fail. And my position is, and will forever be, that to teach young kids to play NHL hockey, they need to be brought into a NHL hockey environment. Not an AHL team that plays in the NHL. And before you call this out as hyperbole or whatever, I am talking about game pace here, not individual skill.

100% Agree. Well Said. I would take a Kopitar at 11th over McDavid knowing that our prospects are showing signs of becoming legit NHLers. Kings and Blackhawks have won multiple cups without "said" generational talent. Pittsburgh has won one.

 

[Jame]

This establishes that we are never going to agree. Sam Reinhart is not remotely close to being able to play hockey at NHL speed, the fact that he thinks he is is because he has been exposed to Sabres Hockey in training camp and pre-season, not because he actually is. l.

You should've run this through your head a few times before blurting it out

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

You should've run this through your head a few times before blurting it out

I know you think he's ready to play, but he is not. It's not hard to see either and the issue is with pace. That doesn't mean he can't adjust to the speed, the problem is he is adjusting to 'Sabres speed', he is not adjusting to NHL speed. I don't take the opinions of people who claim Reinhart is playing at an NHL level right now seriously.

What's more is that I think (as long as the basic talent is there) that game speed is the easiest thing to adjust to when jumping up levels in sports. But, and this is the whole point, you don't adjust to a level that is above what your team is playing at. That would require a truly exceptional talent, and Reinhart has not shown it yet.

This isn't a knock against Reinhart even if that is what you think since you decided to show up with your belittling ways, it's a criticism against the team the Sabres have put together and how it is holding back the development of our players.

 

[Paxon]

I know you think he's ready to play, but he is not. It's not hard to see either and the issue is with pace. That doesn't mean he can't adjust to the speed, the problem is he is adjusting to 'Sabres speed', he is not adjusting to NHL speed. I don't take the opinions of people who claim Reinhart is playing at an NHL level right now seriously.

What's more is that I think (as long as the basic talent is there) that game speed is the easiest thing to adjust to when jumping up levels in sports. But, and this is the whole point, you don't adjust to a level that is above what your team is playing at. That would require a truly exceptional talent, and Reinhart has not shown it yet.

This isn't a knock against Reinhart even if that is what you think since you decided to show up with your belittling ways, it's a criticism against the team the Sabres have put together and how it is holding back the development of our players.

Your argument about "Sabres speed" is pretty illogical. He's not adjusting to "NHL speed" but to "Sabres speed"? How is that an argument that he isn't ready to play for the Sabres? Doesn't that just mean he's not going to help the team not suck, not that he doesn't belong? Isn't claiming that he's adjusting to the speed the Sabres play at an argument that he's fit to play for the Sabres? Are there any players on the Sabres playing at "NHL speed"?

Reinhart isn't adjusting to "Sabres speed" because he isn't playing against the Sabres, at least outside of practice. There is no such thing as "Sabres speed". The team just isn't good. It's not a fast-skating team as a group but that's not really relevant. This really comes off as a convoluted way of arguing that Reinhart isn't ready, which can otherwise be argued reasonably enough.

 

[Jame]

I know you think he's ready to play, but he is not. It's not hard to see either and the issue is with pace. That doesn't mean he can't adjust to the speed, the problem is he is adjusting to 'Sabres speed', he is not adjusting to NHL speed. I don't take the opinions of people who claim Reinhart is playing at an NHL level right now seriously.

What's more is that I think (as long as the basic talent is there) that game speed is the easiest thing to adjust to when jumping up levels in sports. But, and this is the whole point, you don't adjust to a level that is above what your team is playing at. That would require a truly exceptional talent, and Reinhart has not shown it yet.

This isn't a knock against Reinhart even if that is what you think since you decided to show up with your belittling ways, it's a criticism against the team the Sabres have put together and how it is holding back the development of our players.

You didn't need to repeat yourself. The Sabres speed thing was what I was laughing at in the first place

 

[Jame]

I hope Risto and Girgensons development isn't being hurt by playing at "Sabres speed".

 

[joshjull]

You didn't need to repeat yourself. The Sabres speed thing was what I was laughing at in the first place

Sabres' speed? Is that like 2 Brad Browns?

 

[Jame]

Sabres' speed? Is that like 2 Brad Browns?

It's a good question.

All I know is I'm hoping cyber sabre can make me a "Sabres speed/star wars" avatar.

 

[gallagt01]

This Sabres speed argument may be the most out-there item I've ever read on HFboards (which is saying something, because, well...because HFboards).

I'm really not even sure I understand the concept. It's silly.

 

[ZeroPT*]

100% Agree. Well Said. I would take a Kopitar at 11th over McDavid knowing that our prospects are showing signs of becoming legit NHLers. Kings and Blackhawks have won multiple cups without "said" generational talent. Pittsburgh has won one.

Toews and Kane are elite talents. You need elite talents to win.

Pittsburgh has 3, two were top 2 picks
Chicago has 3, two were top 3 picks
LA has like 4, 1 was drafted 2nd overall, Kopitar was 11th, but Carter was acquired by trading what? a top 3 pick.

You need elite players to win the cup and the absolute best way to get an elite talent is to draft one, most are found at the top of the draft. It's a simple concept.

 

[ZeroPT*]

This establishes that we are never going to agree. Sam Reinhart is not remotely close to being able to play hockey at NHL speed, the fact that he thinks he is is because he has been exposed to Sabres Hockey in training camp and pre-season, not because he actually is.

Sick. This is awesome.

As for your assessment that only elite prospects are guaranteed not to bust, I disagree again. McDavid might turn out to be the biggest bust ever in hockey, there is no guarantee, Grigorenko could turn out to be better than Kopitar. No one knows. All we know is that Grigorenko belongs to the Sabres and McDavid belongs to the dreams as of right now. If all our early round draft picks bust like you are worried about, McDavid won't mean jack ****. We'd still be the worst team in the league.

McDavid might turn out to be the biggest bust ever or he could turn out to be a perennial 100 point top 5 player in the league. I'll let you decide which is more likely.Not only that but not all prospects are created equally. Some have a smaller bust factor than others. Grigorenko has always had a high bust factor, so have Zads and Armia. The opposite could be said about Reinhart,Ristolainen and Girgensons. They might bust, or they could succeed.

We NEED for our prospect to become a competitive core with or without whomever will be at the top of the next draft. If we fail at that, and it is my opinion that we are currently not doing a good job at that in the least, the rebuild will fail. And my position is, and will forever be, that to teach young kids to play NHL hockey, they need to be brought into a NHL hockey environment. Not an AHL team that plays in the NHL. And before you call this out as hyperbole or whatever, I am talking about game pace here, not individual skill.

I never said we didn't need them to develop. The reality is, not all of them will. And we need to maximize that.

Tell me what the best course of action is. Finish 5 points out of the playoffs, get a good prospect, hope our core pans out or bottoming out, getting a potential superstar, and building around him with our prospects and other assets?

Do you think, Chicago would rather barely miss the playoffs and not get Toews? Do you think LA would rather get Cody Hodgson or bottom out and draft the face of their franchise, Drew Doughty? I'll let you decide.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Toews and Kane are elite talents. You need elite talents to win.

Pittsburgh has 3, two were top 2 picks
Chicago has 3, two were top 3 picks
LA has like 4, 1 was drafted 2nd overall, Kopitar was 11th, but Carter was acquired by trading what? a top 3 pick.

You need elite players to win the cup and the absolute best way to get an elite talent is to draft one, most are found at the top of the draft. It's a simple concept.

Elite talent can be found anywhere in the draft. Not every top 3 pick goes on to become an elite player. You said Generational talent, NOT elite talent. Reinhart would be considered "Elite" talent where he was drafted considering he was one spot earlier than Toews with your logic. Chicago and LA never purposefully tanked and their fans never "hoped" they would tank when they achieved those picks. Pittsburgh is 'always' a contender with Crosby but in reality. Their "Generational" talent has only netted them one cup and they haven't made a push back to the Cup in 5 years now which throws your theory of tanking for a Generational player purposefully 'worth it' in the garbage.

What about Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Are they elite talent?

We won't ever agree. This pro tanking attitude is dumb.

BTW: How many top 3 picks do the Oilers have?