Post-Game Talk (GBU): Zemgus defeats the tank

[ZeroPT*]

Elite talent can be found anywhere in the draft. Not every top 3 pick goes on to become an elite player. You said Generational talent, NOT elite talent. Reinhart would be considered "Elite" talent where he was drafted considering he was one spot earlier than Toews with your logic. Chicago and LA never purposefully tanked and their fans never "hoped" they would tank when they achieved those picks. Pittsburgh is 'always' a contender with Crosby but in reality. Their "Generational" talent has only netted them one cup and they haven't made a push back to the Cup in 5 years now which throws your theory of tanking for a Generational player purposefully 'worth it' in the garbage.

What about Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Are they elite talent?

We won't ever agree. This pro tanking attitude is dumb.

BTW: How many top 3 picks do the Oilers have?

Yeah elite talent is found anywhere in the draft. I never said otherwise. It's simply easier to find elite talent at the top of the draft.

How else would you build a team? Bringing up the Oilers is hilariously stupid. Everyone knows that that team was horribly built. Top picks aren't the only part of the equation. Actual team building and smart moves are too.

And I love how you say this pro-tank attitude is dumb yet you had a tank nation avatar last year. Pretty funny if you ask me.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Toews and Kane are the most important players in Chicago. Both high picks.
Doughty is the best player on LA. He's a high pick.
Jumbo Joe and Marleau are top picks on the sharks. That's 2/3rds of a top line.
Tampa Bay's best players are Stamkos and Hedman. Both top 2 picks.
Colorado is lead by Landeskog,EJ,Duchene and Mack. All top 3 picks.
Dallas traded for Seguin. He's their best player. Also a top 2 pick. Spezza is too.
Pietrangelo is STL's best player, also a top 5 pick.

Then you have guys who play on bubble teams that are studs like Tavares,Hall,Ovechkin,Kessel,Backstrom,Johansen,Price, Staal's (carolina).
Most NHL stars are high picks.

 

[Sabre the Win]

Yeah elite talent is found anywhere in the draft. I never said otherwise. It's simply easier to find elite talent at the top of the draft.

How else would you build a team?

And I love how you say this pro-tank attitude is dumb yet you had a tank nation avatar last year. Pretty funny if you ask me.

Keyword: Last year

Change is good. True I did jump on the bandwagon half way thru the season when it was near mathematically impossible to make the playoffs and the "pro-tank" attitude I won't mind this year in the same situation. However before the season begins and at the beginning of the season cheering for the tank is like hoping our prospects don't pan out or show any signs of improvement this year to greedily get 'one' guy that's suppose to change the face of this franchise. I just don't agree with it.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Keyword: Last year

Change is good. True I did jump on the bandwagon half way thru the season when it was near mathematically impossible to make the playoffs and the "pro-tank" attitude I won't mind this year in the same situation. However before the season begins and at the beginning of the season cheering for the tank is like hoping our prospects don't pan out or show any signs of improvement this year to greedily get 'one' guy that's suppose to change the face of this franchise. I just don't agree with it.

wait what?

The two can happen at the same time. Myers and Girgensons progressed a lot last year and the team was what 20 points behind 29th?

 

[Paxon]

Elite talent can be found anywhere in the draft. Not every top 3 pick goes on to become an elite player. You said Generational talent, NOT elite talent. Reinhart would be considered "Elite" talent where he was drafted considering he was one spot earlier than Toews with your logic. Chicago and LA never purposefully tanked and their fans never "hoped" they would tank when they achieved those picks. Pittsburgh is 'always' a contender with Crosby but in reality. Their "Generational" talent has only netted them one cup and they haven't made a push back to the Cup in 5 years now which throws your theory of tanking for a Generational player purposefully 'worth it' in the garbage.

What about Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Are they elite talent?

We won't ever agree. This pro tanking attitude is dumb.

BTW: How many top 3 picks do the Oilers have?

Can't believe these arguments still happen on here.

Is there elite talent outside of the top 3, top 5? Yes. What kind of argument do you imagine this makes? Does having a top 3 pick make you exponentially more likely to draft an elite talent? Yes. Does not having a top 5 pick make it impossible to reliably and predictably secure elite talent? Yes. Gee, I wonder which constitutes the basis of a sound plan for acquiring elite talent, the one with near certainty or the one based almost solely on chance. You seem to imply that Reinhart isn't an elite prospect, even though he is one. He's the most elite prospect/player in our organization, and guess where we drafted him?

Why do you draw some pointless anecdotal line saying Chicago never "purposefully tanked"? They were a terrible team going through a rebuilding process. How is that different than what we're going thruogh? It's not, and you either know it's not or should readily see why it's not. Buffalo isn't "purposefully" "tanking" any more than Chicago was. Teams rebuild. When they rebuild, they're bad. There's no sense trying to speed it up with quick fixes as that not only prevents you from drafting high, but it burns up assets necessary to create future success. Chicago stayed the course, which is what's relevant, unlike conjecture about whether or not they were "tanking".

Most amazingly, you're actually claiming that it wasn't worth "it" for the Penguins to wind up with Crosby. What is "it"? Well, "it" was something the Penguins had to do, which is sell off all their players and rebuild, as the team was facing extinction at the time. Then they drafted Crosby which, among other things, led to the current healthy state of the franchise on and off the ice. Oh, and they actually won a Stanley Cup, but I guess that's not "worth it" because they didn't win 5. Some standards you have...

 

[Sabre the Win]

Can't believe these arguments still happen on here.

Is there elite talent outside of the top 3, top 5? Yes. What kind of argument do you imagine this makes? Does having a top 3 pick make you exponentially more likely to draft an elite talent? Yes. Does not having a top 5 pick make it impossible to reliably and predictably secure elite talent? Yes. Gee, I wonder which constitutes the basis of a sound plan for acquiring elite talent, the one with near certainty or the one based almost solely on chance. You seem to imply that Reinhart isn't an elite prospect, even though he is one. He's the most elite prospect/player in our organization, and guess where we drafted him?

Why do you draw some pointless anecdotal line saying Chicago never "purposefully tanked"? They were a terrible team going through a rebuilding process. How is that different than what we're going thruogh? It's not, and you either know it's not or should readily see why it's not. Buffalo isn't "purposefully" "tanking" any more than Chicago was. Teams rebuild. When they rebuild, they're bad. There's no sense trying to speed it up with quick fixes as that not only prevents you from drafting high, but it burns up assets necessary to create future success. Chicago stayed the course, which is what's relevant, unlike conjecture about whether or not they were "tanking".

Most amazingly, you're actually claiming that it wasn't worth "it" for the Penguins to wind up with Crosby. What is "it"? Well, "it" was something the Penguins had to do, which is sell off all their players and rebuild, as the team was facing extinction at the time. Then they drafted Crosby which, among other things, led to the current healthy state of the franchise on and off the ice. Oh, and they actually won a Stanley Cup, but I guess that's not "worth it" because they didn't win 5. Some standards you have...

Penguins purposefully tanked that's why I didn't mention them. I remember when they did and I remember what everyone thought about it. They have one cup. Hawks and Kings have multiple cups. I want to build a franchise and about your healthy state of the Penguins. I've been hearing talk of problems within the lockeroom but that's whatever. I can't even believe people compare building a team like the Penguins. That's some low standards.

No one said anything about quick fixes. I said I rather see the prospects prosper and solidify themselves as NHLer's even if that gives up the 1st overall but I guess many posters here just want the tire fire to burn because hey apparently after next year EVERY problem is going to be solved and this team is miraculously making a run for the cup.

 

[Paxon]

Penguins purposefully tanked that's why I didn't mention them. I remember when they did and I remember what everyone thought about it. They have one cup. Hawks and Kings have multiple cups. I want to build a franchise and about your healthy state of the Penguins. I've been hearing talk of problems within the lockeroom but that's whatever. I can't even believe people compare building a team like the Penguins. That's some low standards.

No one said anything about quick fixes. I said I rather see the prospects prosper and solidify themselves as NHLer's even if that gives up the 1st overall but I guess many posters here just want the tire fire to burn because hey apparently after next year EVERY problem is going to be solved and this team is miraculously making a run for the cup.

Did the Penguins purposefully tank? Depends how you look at it. They had to sell off their stars because they couldn't afford to pay them -- it was that serious. The Hawks and Kings won multiple Cups, and they have high picks as key contributors. In the Kings' case they traded players they selected with high picks (Johnson #3, Schenn #5) to get Carter and Richards, Doughty was a #2 overall, and Kopitar should have been a top 5 pick at least. I know it's weak talking about how a player "should have" been a top pick because that is counter-intuitive to my argument, but in the case of Kopitar he went too low simply because of his background. It's a rare case that an elite talent comes into the draft from a nation that's produced no NHLers, so it's not exactly a scenario you can count on in the future. Regardless, forgetting Kopitar, that's three top 5 picks they had which were key to their success off the top of my head.

You say we are tanking and the Penguins tanked, but the Hawks and Kings didn't. It's all a bunch of nonsense to me. The bottom line is all four teams were bad, they went through extended rebuilds wherein they stockpiled high draft picks and became perennial playoffs teams. The Hawks and Kings won two Cups and are perennial contenders. The Penguins are year in and year out one of the few best teams each season. If the plan is to build a top team, the only real blueprint is to be bad for a few years while you rebuild. No other path can can be reproduced.

As to the Sabres magically being better next year, whether people believe that or not doesn't change what's best for this year. We won't magically get better next year if we finish 24th this season either. What helps us more next year and, more importantly, beyond: drafting McDavid/Eichel or drafting Pavel Zacha? It seems pretty simple to me. McDavid or Eichel won't step in and turn the team around next year but they can be legitimate contributors. If other things improve, whether it's from Ristolainen, Grigorenko, Reinhart, McCabe, whether it's from trades and signings, it'd be one more improvement to the roster. If those same improvements come next year but we draft someone else, that's one less improvement. Neither scenario is unlikely to add up to a playoff team but the former makes it a bit more likely we climb out of the basement next year. More importantly, it makes it more likely the payoff is more substantial once the ship is righted.

As to my comment about quick fixes, I simply assumed if you're against what you call tanking then you must want something done to make the team better this year, otherwise what's the purpose to your argument? Is it simply about where you hope the Sabres finish this season regardless of whether the team actually makes improvements? In other words, do you simply hope they improve in the standings due to playing over their heads for a couple stretches? If the team remains as is, it is one of the two or three worst teams in the league, without question. That means finishing in the bottom 5. Do you really begrudge people preferring #1 or #2 to #5?

 

[DazedandConfused]

Penguins purposefully tanked that's why I didn't mention them. I remember when they did and I remember what everyone thought about it. They have one cup. Hawks and Kings have multiple cups. I want to build a franchise and about your healthy state of the Penguins. I've been hearing talk of problems within the lockeroom but that's whatever. I can't even believe people compare building a team like the Penguins. That's some low standards.

No one said anything about quick fixes. I said I rather see the prospects prosper and solidify themselves as NHLer's even if that gives up the 1st overall but I guess many posters here just want the tire fire to burn because hey apparently after next year EVERY problem is going to be solved and this team is miraculously making a run for the cup.

Hawks/Kings/Pens were all bad teams for years, and they've all reaped the rewards of what comes from drafting high. The reasons they were bad and how they're built surrounding the core players is where the differences occur. The "tanking" is only one aspect of a successful rebuild, but it is a very helpful part of the turnaround. How Murray assembles the team around the piece acquired from tanking is what will ultimately be what separates us from being a yearly cup contender/reg season powerhouse and a potential dynasty.

But Pittsburgh only won one cup so far in Crosby/Malkins lengthy careers. As Sabres fans we should set the bar higher, I mean we've won how many in 40 some years?

Walk before you run.

 

[LaFontaineToMogilny]

Long rant coming, feel free to skip if all you are interested in is trying to make fun of semantics. I promise I won't continue this discussion past this rant anyway.

I see that the concept that the Sabres are currently (and have been for several yaers) a team that plays hockey at a very slow pace compared to the rest of the NHL is challenging for some here to accept. In fact. the idea is one of the most out there ever on these boards. Well, since it's more important to try to attack wording than the actual points let me try to give an example of what I mean.

Everyone saw the game against Chicago. The Sabres were lucky to be tied after two periods, but they were not being blown out of the rink. Was that because the Nolan hustle is the great equalizer or because the Blackhawks didn't play nearly up to their potential? The third period showed anyone with any sort of clue about hockey how far the Sabres are away from even being able to pretend to play with the elite teams in the league. Sure, we can't expect to compare to the power houses of the league I am sure many will retort, and I agree, but at the very least you want to look like your playing in the same league.

The Sabres have only looked semi competent against Carolina, another total turd that is playing at a very low level. Still, when the chips were down the Hurricanes were able to completely skate circles around the Sabres to tie the game up. The reality is that the way the Sabres are playing right now, they are not at NHL level. Not elite, not mediocre, they are not even a poor NHL team. They play as if they are an AHL team.

It's not because the players can't stick handle, or because no one can skate at all. The biggest issue is that the Sabres can not play the game at an NHL pace. That means, they are hardly ever cleanly first to the puck, they are unable to complete a pass when there is any sort of pressure, they can not gain control of the puck in their own zone or hold on to it for any time at all in the offensive zone and they never end up with the puck when possession is contested. I am sure people will say that it's because there's no talent on the roster, but the way I see it all of these problems comes from the same issue: The Sabres play the game too slow. Against a competent opponent they are incapable of making the plays they need to make because they don't have enough time to do what needs to be done. That's why passes and up 6 feet behind players, why people get worked off the puck so often, why no one seems to be able to clear the zone. The examples are hundredfold for anyone who cares to look for it, and it's also the reason why the Sabres look decent in preseason, or why Foligno looks like he can snipe the puck on a 2 on 1 if he gets 2 seconds to make the play. At NHL speed you don't get 2 seconds. Against utterly crap teams you do.

Why are we so slow? I don't know, but in all team sports I've ever played, the pace of your team is set in practice. It is very difficult to play at a higher pace than what you practice for. That is, again in my opinion, why we see players have good training camps and then end up looking completely outmatched when the puck drop for real.

And here we are at the core of my argument. For the Sabres to ever have a chance to be competitive in the playoffs, we need to elevate the team to play at mediocre NHL levels, then elevate the level again to match playoff hockey which is even faster than anything we have seen in years, and then you can start to stabilize at that extreme peak level. Working at playing the games at proper game speed runs counter to tanking for last place. These things can't be done at the same time. In my opinion, it is much more crucial that the Sabres start adjusting to playing the game at an NHL level than to go for last place. Chances are we would draft pretty high regardless, but at least we have started to process of finding out which prospects will be able to elevate their game to the needed levels and who can't. Right now, we are wasting time playing AHL hockey, or playing at Sabre speed since everyone finds that wording so funny, while hoping for the draft to bail out a horrible team.

 

[Paxon]

Long rant coming, feel free to skip if all you are interested in is trying to make fun of semantics. I promise I won't continue this discussion past this rant anyway.

[...]

No one questions that the Sabres are one of the slower teams out there. The issue was with what you said in relation to Reinhart, which didn't make much sense. Reinhart can either keep up or he can't. If you believe he's adjusting to the pace the Sabres play at then I fail to see how that's actually an issue rather than a recommendation that he should have a spot on the team.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

Long rant coming, feel free to skip if all you are interested in is trying to make fun of semantics. I promise I won't continue this discussion past this rant anyway.

I see that the concept that the Sabres are currently (and have been for several yaers) a team that plays hockey at a very slow pace compared to the rest of the NHL is challenging for some here to accept. In fact. the idea is one of the most out there ever on these boards. Well, since it's more important to try to attack wording than the actual points let me try to give an example of what I mean.

Everyone saw the game against Chicago. The Sabres were lucky to be tied after two periods, but they were not being blown out of the rink. Was that because the Nolan hustle is the great equalizer or because the Blackhawks didn't play nearly up to their potential? The third period showed anyone with any sort of clue about hockey how far the Sabres are away from even being able to pretend to play with the elite teams in the league. Sure, we can't expect to compare to the power houses of the league I am sure many will retort, and I agree, but at the very least you want to look like your playing in the same league.

The Sabres have only looked semi competent against Carolina, another total turd that is playing at a very low level. Still, when the chips were down the Hurricanes were able to completely skate circles around the Sabres to tie the game up. The reality is that the way the Sabres are playing right now, they are not at NHL level. Not elite, not mediocre, they are not even a poor NHL team. They play as if they are an AHL team.

It's not because the players can't stick handle, or because no one can skate at all. The biggest issue is that the Sabres can not play the game at an NHL pace. That means, they are hardly ever cleanly first to the puck, they are unable to complete a pass when there is any sort of pressure, they can not gain control of the puck in their own zone or hold on to it for any time at all in the offensive zone and they never end up with the puck when possession is contested. I am sure people will say that it's because there's no talent on the roster, but the way I see it all of these problems comes from the same issue: The Sabres play the game too slow. Against a competent opponent they are incapable of making the plays they need to make because they don't have enough time to do what needs to be done. That's why passes and up 6 feet behind players, why people get worked off the puck so often, why no one seems to be able to clear the zone. The examples are hundredfold for anyone who cares to look for it, and it's also the reason why the Sabres look decent in preseason, or why Foligno looks like he can snipe the puck on a 2 on 1 if he gets 2 seconds to make the play. At NHL speed you don't get 2 seconds. Against utterly crap teams you do.

Why are we so slow? I don't know, but in all team sports I've ever played, the pace of your team is set in practice. It is very difficult to play at a higher pace than what you practice for. That is, again in my opinion, why we see players have good training camps and then end up looking completely outmatched when the puck drop for real.

And here we are at the core of my argument. For the Sabres to ever have a chance to be competitive in the playoffs, we need to elevate the team to play at mediocre NHL levels, then elevate the level again to match playoff hockey which is even faster than anything we have seen in years, and then you can start to stabilize at that extreme peak level. Working at playing the games at proper game speed runs counter to tanking for last place. These things can't be done at the same time. In my opinion, it is much more crucial that the Sabres start adjusting to playing the game at an NHL level than to go for last place. Chances are we would draft pretty high regardless, but at least we have started to process of finding out which prospects will be able to elevate their game to the needed levels and who can't. Right now, we are wasting time playing AHL hockey, or playing at Sabre speed since everyone finds that wording so funny, while hoping for the draft to bail out a horrible team.

You know they are in last place? The team is terrible and has marginal NHL players and you think "easy" they must play at an NHL level...and blink your eyes and make it so. The Draft won Chicago, Pittsburgh and LA Kings a Cup...Sit back and chillax it will be another two years before this team "competes" the way you want them to or if you cant take it turn it off and come back in two years.

 

[Bps21*]

They aren't going to magically start playing better because everyone gets in a goddamned care bear circle and wishes really hard. Fans making the best of a tough situation by choosing to look at the bright side of being so bad isn't a negative. It isn't a positive either. It's literally nothing.

When people stop watching and caring...that's when it's something.

Personally this is way better than the hopeless runs to 10th that defined so many years before they finally pulled the plug.

More importantly I don't know why it bothers someone how another person chooses to watch this team. I don't bother anyone by telling they're stupid for wanting to win enough to get stuck back in that trap we lived in forever. And that the football team has lived in forever. The not good enough to make the playoff/not bad enough to draft a superstar spot. And yes, Virginia...superstars are regularly found in the top 3 not 11. Quite often in fact.

Because it's none of my business.

 

[Jame]

Long rant coming.

The Sabres are bad... that doesn't hurt the development of young players.

 

[brian_griffin]

This Sabres speed argument may be the most out-there item I've ever read on HFboards (which is saying something, because, well...because HFboards).

I'm really not even sure I understand the concept. It's silly.

Quite simply, it's just another measured intangible.

 

[brian_griffin]

Keyword: Last year

Change is good. True I did jump on the bandwagon half way thru the season when it was near mathematically impossible to make the playoffs and the "pro-tank" attitude I won't mind this year in the same situation. However before the season begins and at the beginning of the season cheering for the tank is like hoping our prospects don't pan out or show any signs of improvement this year to greedily get 'one' guy that's suppose to change the face of this franchise. I just don't agree with it.

As ZeroPT points out below, the two are not mutually exclusive. Players / prospects can improve - even beyond the typical "learning curve" growth of a single season, and yet the team can still be a lock for a lottery pick.

wait what?

The two can happen at the same time. Myers and Girgensons progressed a lot last year and the team was what 20 points behind 29th?

Exactly.

Long rant coming, feel free to skip if all you are interested in is trying to make fun of semantics. I promise I won't continue this discussion past this rant anyway. [...]

The logical extension of your argument is if BUF (or any NHL team) practiced at game speed, or, ideally, faster than game speed, they would collectively improve, negate any individual talent deficiencies, and dominate their opponents.

How does that not require a higher collective level of innate talent to accomplish?

The Sabres are bad... that doesn't hurt the development of young players.

Exactly.

 

[cybresabre]

It's a good question.

All I know is I'm hoping cyber sabre can make me a "Sabres speed/star wars" avatar.

Not an avatar, but...

 

[30Yonge]

The draft and Lombardi won the Kings a Cup. He missed on Hickey and made 49 trades before LA won its first cup. Almost half the 2012 playoff roster was acquired via trade or free agency.