Zegras/Drysdale vs Raymond/Seider vs Stützle/Sanderson

[RedHawkDown]

I dunno. I've seen a lot of shitty teams over the years with all star players on them. Zero team cohesion, but still a clearly skilled or talented player thats getting their cookies.

Heck, we've seen Edmonton struggle at times with 2 of the best players in the world.

It happens.

This is absolutely true when there’s only a few good players, or one or two star players. It is never true when a team truly has (supposedly) 4+ 1st liners and 2-3 top pairing D, along with a good #4 (Zub). No team that actually has those players has been nearly as bad as ottawa. If you can name a single team in the last decade, I’ll back off.

Actually, yes. Edmonton finished second last one year with McDavid and draisaitl.

Those rangers teams I mentioned also finished 6th last twice.

That's my point.

This isn't uncommon.

Didn't Karlsson win the Norris on the worst team last year?


Plenty of stars have played on bottom teams. Doesn't make those stars less good. It just means the collection of 23 players is not good.

Yes, because beyond mcdavid and drai, there was literally nobody. No top pairing D, barely any top 6 D at all, no good 2nd liners, and essentially AHL quality players on the rest of the roster. Karlsson, again a good example - beyond him, the team had maybe 1 first liner in Hertl, and then no other good top 6 forwards, and definitely no other top 4 D.

The difference is that Ottawa fans claim they have MULTIPLE of each of those things. If yall said - Sanderson is a top pairing D and Stutzle is an elite 1C, but beyond that we have no other good top6F/top4D - then that would make sense, and the record would make sense. As it is, the claims are absurd

When Detroit finished 4th last in 2019, for example , we had 1 first line player (Larkin). We had 3 other very average 2nd liners (athanasiou, mantha, nyquist). We had 1 true #4D in the corpse of Kronwall. Hrinek was a 4/5, and the rest of the D were dog shit 6/7/AHL tier. So the record makes sense.

 

[jbeck5]

This is absolutely true when there’s only a few good players, or one or two star players. It is never true when a team truly has (supposedly) 4+ 1st liners and 2-3 top pairing D, along with a good #4 (Zub). No team that actually has those players has been nearly as bad as ottawa. If you can name a single team in the last decade, I’ll back off.

Didn't the Oilers have a bunch of talent of high end picks and kept finishing towards the bottom?

I mean, they drafted forwards McDavid, draisaitl, RNH, Yakupov, hall, paajarvi, Eberle, Gagner in a 6-7 year window to go along with defense of Gustafsson, nurse, Marino

To go along with the guys they had like Hemsky, Perron, horcoff, Whitney, etc

With khabibulin in nets...

They finished last or second last many times despite having a good looking top 6 or top 4.

There's also several teams that had random awful one off years where they still had multiple top line players...such as Colorado and Philly in the last decade or so.

Like I said, it happens.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Didn't the Oilers have a bunch of talent of high end picks and kept finishing towards the bottom?

I mean, they drafted forwards McDavid, draisaitl, RNH, Yakupov, hall, paajarvi, Eberle, Gagner in a 6-7 year window to go along with defense of Gustafsson, nurse, Marino

To go along with the guys they had like Hemsky, Perron, horcoff, Whitney, etc

With khabibulin in nets...

They finished last or second last many times despite having a good looking top 6 or top 4.

There's also several teams that had random awful one off years where they still had multiple top line players...such as Colorado and Philly in the last decade or so.

Like I said, it happens.

It doesn’t matter if they drafted high if the players sucked ….
It also isn’t a one off with ottawa. They’ve been shit for many years

 

[jbeck5]

This is absolutely true when there’s only a few good players, or one or two star players. It is never true when a team truly has (supposedly) 4+ 1st liners and 2-3 top pairing D, along with a good #4 (Zub). No team that actually has those players has been nearly as bad as ottawa. If you can name a single team in the last decade, I’ll back off.


Yes, because beyond mcdavid and drai, there was literally nobody. No top pairing D, barely any top 6 D at all, no good 2nd liners, and essentially AHL quality players on the rest of the roster. Karlsson, again a good example - beyond him, the team had maybe 1 first liner in Hertl, and then no other good top 6 forwards, and definitely no other top 4 D.

The difference is that Ottawa fans claim they have MULTIPLE of each of those things. If yall said - Sanderson is a top pairing D and Stutzle is an elite 1C, but beyond that we have no other good top6F/top4D - then that would make sense, and the record would make sense. As it is, the claims are absurd

When Detroit finished 4th last in 2019, for example , we had 1 first line player (Larkin). We had 3 other very average 2nd liners (athanasiou, mantha, nyquist). We had 1 true #4D in the corpse of Kronwall. Hrinek was a 4/5, and the rest of the D were dog shit 6/7/AHL tier. So the record makes sense.

Well they definitely did have people behind McDavid and draisaitl...I named quite a few names of players that were labeled as good 1st or 2nd line or first or second pair.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Actually, yes. Edmonton finished second last one year with McDavid and draisaitl.

Those rangers teams I mentioned also finished 6th last twice.

That's my point.

This isn't uncommon.

Didn't Karlsson win the Norris on the worst team last year?


Plenty of stars have played on bottom teams. Doesn't make those stars less good. It just means the collection of 23 players is not good.

SJ wasn’t last, and Karlsson/Hertl were the only good players on the team

Are you talking about the year where McDavid was a rookie who missed ~40 games to injury and Drasaitl was also just a 50pt rookie? I sure hope not.

Those Rangers teams were a ton of massively overpayed past their prime players so I have no idea how that’s comparable. Just because they were paid a lot doesn’t mean they were any good. Outside of Leetch, none were very good players anymore.

No team I can think of with “three #1D” and the “best top 9 in the NHL” has finished this low

 

[RedHawkDown]

Well they definitely did have people behind McDavid and draisaitl...I named quite a few names of players that were labeled as good 1st or 2nd line or first or second pair.

I mean, the season you quoted is highly disingenuous - they finished 2nd last in 2015-2016.
This was both Draisaitl and McDavid's rookie season, and McDavid was injured for half the season. It was also Nurse's rookie season. The team was full of filler players that couldn't get the job done because the Oilers' actual stars were not stars yet.

So this is actually a terrible example - Drai and McDavid were not elite superstars in this season, and therefore, Edmonton could not overcome its lack of firepower and finished 2nd last. It actually makes the opposite point you are trying to make.

 

[jbeck5]

It doesn’t matter if they drafted high if the players sucked ….
It also isn’t a one off with ottawa. They’ve been shit for many years

Yes, as was Edmonton...

Like I said, it's been done before.

Doesn't mean someone like RNH wasn't t good because they were shit for years even if he had McDavid and draisaitl and Eberle and hall around them etc.

He's looking good.

So like I've said numerous times, it happens.

Same with buffalo. Shit for years. Have many talented pieces that produce. Haven't made the playoffs in years. Does that make tage Thomson not a star sniper? Or dahlin not a star defender?

 

[RedHawkDown]

Yes, as was Edmonton...

Like I said, it's been done before.

Doesn't mean someone like RNH wasn't t good because they were shit for years even if he had McDavid and draisaitl and Eberle and hall around them etc.

He's looking good.

So like I've said numerous times, it happens.

Same with buffalo. Shit for years. Have many talented pieces that produce. Haven't made the playoffs in years. Does that make rage Thomson not a star sniper? Or dahlin not a star defender?

Yes, it actually does mean those things. Thompson had one star-level year, last year. He is back to a 60-70pt pace player this season. You won't find Buffalo fans claiming he is currently an elite superstar 1C like Ottawa fans with Stutzle, though.

Dahlin is very good, and definitely a top pairing star defender. However, the rest of Buffalo's defense is terrible. Again, you won't find Buffalo fans claiming they have 3 top pairing D. And - despite all that - Buffalo is still 12 points ahead of Ottawa, lol.

There is a reason Ottawa was voted "most annoying fanbase" in JFresh's poll.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Well they definitely did have people behind McDavid and draisaitl...I named quite a few names of players that were labeled as good 1st or 2nd line or first or second pair.

Didn't the Oilers have a bunch of talent of high end picks and kept finishing towards the bottom?

I mean, they drafted forwards McDavid, draisaitl, RNH, Yakupov, hall, paajarvi, Eberle, Gagner in a 6-7 year window to go along with defense of Gustafsson, nurse, Marino

To go along with the guys they had like Hemsky, Perron, horcoff, Whitney, etc

With khabibulin in nets...

They finished last or second last many times despite having a good looking top 6 or top 4.

There's also several teams that had random awful one off years where they still had multiple top line players...such as Colorado and Philly in the last decade or so.

Like I said, it happens.

Why would it matter where they were drafted when Paajarvi was horrible, Yakupov was the worst 1st overall in NHL history, Horcoff was a 3rd liner outside of one season? Perron just an ok 2nd line player, Gagner peaked at 40ish pts,Marino never even played a single game for them?

None of these guys were actually ever very good, and in the case of Marino, didn’t even exist for the Oilers.

You basically just named a random assortment of players for no real reason at all.

 

[jbeck5]

Why would it matter where they were drafted when Paajarvi was horrible, Yakupov was the worst 1st overall in NHL history, Horcoff was a 3rd liner outside of one season? Perron just an ok 2nd line player, Gagner peaked at 40ish pts,Marino never even played a single game for them?

None of these guys were actually ever very good, and in the case of Marino, didn’t even exist for the Oilers.

You basically just named a random assortment of players for no real reason at all.

They were all players that Edmonton had in their organization that fans would project into lineups and brag about the talent and then the team fell flat.

Isn't that what we were asking examples of?

What about Colorado 2016-2017?

21-22 year old MacKinnon.
25 year old Duchene.
19-20 year old Rantanen.
25 year old Barrie.
23 year old landeskog.
28 year old johnson.

Sprinkle some vets like Iginla and Beauchemin.

Dead last.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It doesn’t matter if they drafted high if the players sucked ….
It also isn’t a one off with ottawa. They’ve been shit for many years

One less year than the wings to date, lol.
the wings started their futility , Sens were a goal away from cup finals.

Ya McDavid, Draisitl, Nuge, Eberle and Hall all suck.

You make it to easy dude.

 

[jbeck5]

Yes, it actually does mean those things. Thompson had one star-level year, last year. He is back to a 60-70pt pace player this season. You won't find Buffalo fans claiming he is currently an elite superstar 1C like Ottawa fans with Stutzle, though.

Dahlin is very good, and definitely a top pairing star defender. However, the rest of Buffalo's defense is terrible. Again, you won't find Buffalo fans claiming they have 3 top pairing D. And - despite all that - Buffalo is still 12 points ahead of Ottawa, lol.

There is a reason Ottawa was voted "most annoying fanbase" in JFresh's poll.

What lol those buffalo fans are saying dahlin is better than anything Ottawa has...they're also saying power is better than Sanderson. So yes, they are doing that.

Same thing.

 

[RedHawkDown]

What lol those buffalo fans are saying dahlin is better than anything Ottawa has...they're also saying power is better than Sanderson.

Same thing.

Can you show me where Buffalo fans have said that current Owen Power is better than Sanderson? That's certainly not the narrative on their own board.

 

[Golden_Jet]

There is a reason Ottawa was voted "most annoying fanbase" in JFresh's poll.

lol wrong again dude, leafs won that in a landslide, how many times can you get the facts wrong.

Like I said you make this to easy, it’s not even a challenge to prove you wrong.

 

[RedHawkDown]

One less year than the wings to date, lol.
the wings started their futility , Sens were a goal away from cup finals.

Ya McDavid, Draisitl, Nuge, Eberle and Hall all suck.

You make it to easy dude.

Never said jack shit about the Wings. We suck ass and have sucked ass for a very long time.

All I'm saying is that for the most part we aren't delusional about it. That's the difference.

Re: the bolded. Already addressed, Extremely disingenuous to use Nurse/McDavid/Drai's rookie seasons to act like the Oilers sucked when those guys were superstars. In the season they finished 2nd last, Drai was a good 2nd liner, McDavid was injured for 50% of the season but was a good first liner, and Nurse was not a top pairing defenseman. They are superstars now - and the Oilers are on an 11-game winning streak.

lol wrong again dude, leafs won that in a landslide, how many times can you get the facts wrong.

Like I said you make this to easy, it’s not even a challenge to prove you wrong.

You're right, I'm sorry. I meant most delusional, which is more fitting. And Ottawa won that in a landslide:

https://x.com/JFreshHockey/status/1737856637497757907?s=20

 

[jbeck5]

Can you show me where Buffalo fans have said that current Owen Power is better than Sanderson? That's certainly not the narrative on their own board.

Going into this season, yes.

Jake Sanderson vs Owen Power

Buffalo has also been extremely lucky when it comes to meaningful games lost to injuries Just like Sanderson. Forced to be the number 1 with the injuries loading up. He probably would’ve forced himself into the role anyways I wouldn't say extremely lucky. However when Buffalo lost multiple...

forums.hfboards.com

This is a poll where power wins over Sanderson in 2023, less than a year ago. Plenty of buffalo fans voting power.

Or go to the thread about Sandersons extension. Buffalo fans went into it with quotes like "if Sanderson is getting 8 and he's not as good as power, we're f***ed. Power is gonna ask for 9" or stuff like that. It's all there for you to read.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Going into this season, yes.

Jake Sanderson vs Owen Power

Buffalo has also been extremely lucky when it comes to meaningful games lost to injuries Just like Sanderson. Forced to be the number 1 with the injuries loading up. He probably would’ve forced himself into the role anyways I wouldn't say extremely lucky. However when Buffalo lost multiple...

forums.hfboards.com

This is a poll where power wins over Sanderson in 2023, less than a year ago. Plenty of buffalo fans voting power.

Or go to the thread about Sandersons extension. Buffalo fans went into it with quotes like "if Sanderson is getting 8 and he's not as good as power, we're f***ed. Power is gonna ask for 9" or stuff like that. It's all there for you to read.

That makes sense - Power had a very good rookie season. He has been not nearly the same level of player this season. The difference is, when players don't perform to the level expected, other teams fans adjust their response. Ottawa fans continue claiming every player is a star.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Can you show me where Buffalo fans have said that current Owen Power is better than Sanderson? That's certainly not the narrative on their own board.

Lmao congrats on the hat trick today on being wrong so much.

Jake Sanderson vs Owen Power

Buffalo has also been extremely lucky when it comes to meaningful games lost to injuries Just like Sanderson. Forced to be the number 1 with the injuries loading up. He probably would’ve forced himself into the role anyways I wouldn't say extremely lucky. However when Buffalo lost multiple...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[RedHawkDown]

Lmao congrats on the hat trick today on being wrong so much.

Jake Sanderson vs Owen Power

Buffalo has also been extremely lucky when it comes to meaningful games lost to injuries Just like Sanderson. Forced to be the number 1 with the injuries loading up. He probably would’ve forced himself into the role anyways I wouldn't say extremely lucky. However when Buffalo lost multiple...

forums.hfboards.com

Like I said, this made a lot of sense last year when Power was fantastic and a Calder finalist.

This year, he has been quite bad, and this is reflected in Sabres' fans posts on him recently:

Player Discussion - Owen Power, D (1st overall, 2021) Calder Finalist

The guy is clueless. I really don't think there's a player on this team I enjoy watching less when he has the puck. You can see how slow his processing speed is, and he still manages to routinely make the wrong decision. I hope I look back on this in 2 or 3 years and look stupid. But I'd ship...

forums.hfboards.com

Whereas in Ottawa, everybody is a star 1st liner and a top pairing D despite producing dog shit results on the ice time and time again. Once again - most delusional fanbase, for a reason.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Never said jack shit about the Wings. We suck ass and have sucked ass for a very long time.

All I'm saying is that for the most part we aren't delusional about it. That's the difference.

Re: the bolded. Already addressed, Extremely disingenuous to use Nurse/McDavid/Drai's rookie seasons to act like the Oilers sucked when those guys were superstars. In the season they finished 2nd last, Drai was a good 2nd liner, McDavid was injured for 50% of the season but was a good first liner, and Nurse was not a top pairing defenseman. They are superstars now - and the Oilers are on an 11-game winning streak.


You're right, I'm sorry. I meant most delusional, which is more fitting. And Ottawa won that in a landslide:

https://x.com/JFreshHockey/status/1737856637497757907?s=20

Congrats on getting 5th place.
At least you were wrong all along today, I’ll give you credit for that, even though you added ya buts lol.

 

[LeProspector]

reading some of the Detroit fans in this thread makes me genuinely feel bad for them.

I think Stützle is overrated but even then, he is still clearly the best player in the poll, then Seider and Sanderson are very close to each other.

And Detroit fans are making their fanbase look really bad by essentially saying “Detroit’s record is better, so they have the better duo”. Man I wish the world was that simple.

 

[jbeck5]

That makes sense - Power had a very good rookie season. He has been not nearly the same level of player this season. The difference is, when players don't perform to the level expected, other teams fans adjust their response. Ottawa fans continue claiming every player is a star.

Just because there hasn't been a recent poll doesn't mean buffalo fans still wouldn't take their guy over Sanderson.

I'm just saying the argument that dahlin isn't a star defenseman because buffalo has had other hyped up players and still isn't making the playoffs is not a good argument.

Dahlin is still a star player despite playing with other hyped players and failing to make the playoffs JUST like stutzle or Sanderson are star players despite playing with other hyped players and failing to make the playoffs.

Same as Edmonton with all their hyped players a decade ago...or Colorado half a decade ago...

It happens.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Congrats on getting 5th place.

Standard response when you have no better rebuttal to give. Some Detroit fans are delusional for sure. We've got a few on our board. Won't deny it. Still not close to Ottawa.

Just because there hasn't been a recent poll doesn't mean buffalo fans still wouldn't take their guy over Sanderson.

I'm just saying the argument that dahlin isn't a star defenseman because buffalo has had other hyped up players and still isn't making the playoffs is not a good argument.

Dahlin is still a star player despite playing with other hyped players and failing to make the playoffs JUST like stutzle or Sanderson are star players despite playing with other hyped players and failing to make the playoffs.

Same as Edmonton with all their hyped players a decade ago...or Colorado half a decade ago...

It happens.

I never once said Dahlin isn't a star defenseman. I said specifically the opposite in this very thread.

There's a difference between "failing to make the playoffs" and being a bottom 5 team. The Oilers example has already been thoroughly explained to you by myself and another poster - it was the rookie season of all those players and none of them were stars yet. Colorado had nobody beyond their top 1-2 guys.

Once again, if Ottawa fans said - "Stutzle is a 1C, Sanderson is a 1D, and Tkachuk is an average/good 1st liner. Beyond that we've got very few or NO top 4 D or top 6 forwards." I would not challenge that whatsoever. In fact that's what I think is the truth. THe issue becomes when you claim that all of Stutlze, Tkachuk, Batherson, Greig, Giroux, Sanderson, Chychrun, Chabot, Zub are studs.....it simply doesn't add up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Standard response when you have no better rebuttal to give. Some Detroit fans are delusional for sure. We've got a few on our board. Won't deny it. Still not close to Ottawa.

Word of wisdom, use google to check before posting things as facts, then you won’t have to backtrack as much.

 

[RedHawkDown]

reading some of the Detroit fans in this thread makes me genuinely feel bad for them.

I think Stützle is overrated but even then, he is still clearly the best player in the poll, then Seider and Sanderson are very close to each other.

And Detroit fans are making their fanbase look really bad by essentially saying “Detroit’s record is better, so they have the better duo”. Man I wish the world was that simple.

Never said this. Detroit's record is better because we have much better depth.

Word of wisdom, use google to check before posting things as facts, then you won’t have to backtrack as much.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I misspoke using "most annoying" instead of "most delusional", which is what I meant. Keep on graspign for straws pal.