Zadina vs Veleno

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

When? Like within a year or two? I think that's pretty extreme/silly to say.

You cut out the part before that where I say this:

If Zadina doesn't make it with Detroit this year then I'm expecting someone to take a flyer on him as a reclamation project but all signs will point to him busting and going back to the Extraliiga.

How many players that are high draft capital reclamation projects actually turn out?

By this I mean guys that are drafted in the top 10 that can't hack it on the team that drafted them moving to another team within 4 years of being drafted because they were trending downward. Without delving too deep I would guess very, very few move on to become successful NHLers

 

[Frk It]

You cut out the part before that where I say this:



How many players that are high draft capital reclamation projects actually turn out?

By this I mean guys that are drafted in the top 10 that can't hack it on the team that drafted them moving to another team within 4 years of being drafted because they were trending downward. Without delving too deep I would guess very, very few move on to become successful NHLers

If he doesn't stick here, I could see him being a guy like Brett Connoly who bounces around and has some decent seasons for other teams.

I would see that as more likely than some of the guys you compared him to.

We will see. I have been largely disappointed with what I have seen from him so far. Don't think being a 3rd line winger in the NHL is out of reach for him, and that can get you a role in this league for awhile.

I still don't think I have a great feel for what Veleno and Zadina are, I think their situation is still pretty fluid. I just know I have tempered my expectations for both a good deal.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

If he doesn't stick here, I could see him being a guy like Brett Connoly who bounces around and has some decent seasons for other teams.

I would see that as more likely than some of the guys you compared him to, at least.

We will see. I have been largely disappointed with what I have seen from him so far. Don't think being a 3rd line winger in the NHL is out of reach for him, and that can get you a role in this league for awhile.

I still don't think I have a great feel for what Veleno and Zadina are, I think their situation is still pretty fluid. I just have tempered my expectations for both.

Brett Connolly could at least fall back on having some grit. That's what made him successful in a 3rd line role with Washington. Zadina doesn't have that same grit and pushthrough. That's why I think if he can't make it in Detroit the kid is a lost cause, no matter what NHL team picks him up next.

 

[Frk It]

Brett Connolly could at least fall back on having some grit. That's what made him successful in a 3rd line role with Washington. Zadina doesn't have that same grit and pushthrough. That's why I think if he can't make it in Detroit the kid is a lost cause, no matter what NHL team picks him up next.

I think the reason he stuck is because he found more offense, not because of grit.

Zadina needs to find a way to generate more shots. His shot generation has been pretty low since he has been in the league. I would hope having more competition for top 9 spots would cause him to elevate his game. We will see. Might be tricky for him to get PP time this year, though. I feel like Kubalik is going to take his spot there.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think the reason he stuck is because he found more offense, not because of grit.

Zadina needs to find a way to generate more shots. His shot generation has been pretty low since he has been in the league. I would hope having more competition for top 9 spots would cause him to elevate his game. We will see. Might be tricky for him to get PP time this year, though. I feel like Kubalik is going to take his spot there.

I mean we can run through the names and I'm still not sure who ends up on a powerplay.

Seider and Hronek. I don't think Edvinsson will get the chance because he wasn't able to hone that part of his game in Frolunda.

Larkin, Copp, Vrana, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Perron. And then what? Kubalik, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, Ras, Suter

Berggren has to make the roster still, Ras is a bit one dimensional, Veleno hasn't shown enough offensive pop, Suter is the worst option. I think Kubalik and Zadina probably take the last spots, and they just fill in a spot. Unless we get a bigger shakeup to the roster than I'm expecting.

 

[Frk It]

I mean we can run through the names and I'm still not sure who ends up on a powerplay.

Seider and Hronek. I don't think Edvinsson will get the chance because he wasn't able to hone that part of his game in Frolunda.

Larkin, Copp, Vrana, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Perron. And then what? Kubalik, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, Ras, Suter

Berggren has to make the roster still, Ras is a bit one dimensional, Veleno hasn't shown enough offensive pop, Suter is the worst option. I think Kubalik and Zadina probably take the last spots, and they just fill in a spot. Unless we get a bigger shakeup to the roster than I'm expecting.

I think our whole top 6 will be on the top 2 PP units and then Seider+Hronek. (Bert, Larkin, Raymond, Perron, Copp, Vrana)

So then that leaves 1-2 spots? (bad @ math)... and Yzerman sounded pretty complimentary on Kubalik after that signing.

But we will see what happens, I think having some healthy competition going into the season will be a good thing.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I mean we can run through the names and I'm still not sure who ends up on a powerplay.

Seider and Hronek. I don't think Edvinsson will get the chance because he wasn't able to hone that part of his game in Frolunda.

Larkin, Copp, Vrana, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Perron. And then what? Kubalik, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, Ras, Suter

Berggren has to make the roster still, Ras is a bit one dimensional, Veleno hasn't shown enough offensive pop, Suter is the worst option. I think Kubalik and Zadina probably take the last spots, and they just fill in a spot. Unless we get a bigger shakeup to the roster than I'm expecting.

I think it will look more like this - the majority of icetime (65% or greater) goes to PP1. The junk time goes to PP2. A team's 2nd powerplay unit usually only accounts for 30% or less of a team's total power play goals, so I would say do not expect a ton coming from that unit. 12 or less goals more likely.

Because less zone time it might be better to have speedy rush-attack wingers to make the most of their opportunity.

PP1
Raymond - Larkin - Bertuzzi
Perron (best PP shooter)- Seider

PP2
Kubalik - Copp - Vrana
Berggren (if he makes it) - Hronek

Kubalik, Vrana and Berggren are all great at creating scoring chances off the rush. My only worry with this unit is shorthanded chances against. Outside of Copp it's not what I would consider defensively responsible.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I think it will look more like this - the majority of icetime (65% or greater) goes to PP1. The junk time goes to PP2. A team's 2nd powerplay unit usually only accounts for 30% or less of a team's total power play goals, so I would say do not expect a ton coming from that unit. 12 or less goals more likely.

Because less zone time it might be better to have speedy rush-attack wingers to make the most of their opportunity.

PP1
Raymond - Larkin - Bertuzzi
Perron (best PP shooter)- Seider

PP2
Kubalik - Copp - Vrana
Berggren (if he makes it) - Hronek

Kubalik, Vrana and Berggren are all great at creating scoring chances off the rush. My only worry with this unit is shorthanded chances against. Outside of Copp it's not what I would consider defensively responsible.

I don't want my powerplay to create scoring chances off the rush. I feel confident that Raymond and Perron will be on different units as the only RH threats. Vrana should go up, let Perron drop down. Throw Kubalik to the right wing. It will still come down to Zadina and Berggren. Berggren has to play onto the roster, where Zadina will naturally have the advantage.

I know you don't think he should, but that's more likely to be how it plays out. Coaches and veterans and earning your spot. Stuff like that

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't want my powerplay to create scoring chances off the rush. I feel confident that Raymond and Perron will be on different units as the only RH threats. Vrana should go up, let Perron drop down. Throw Kubalik to the right wing. It will still come down to Zadina and Berggren. Berggren has to play onto the roster, where Zadina will naturally have the advantage.

I know you don't think he should, but that's more likely to be how it plays out. Coaches and veterans and earning your spot. Stuff like that

Well look at it like this. PP2 comes out usually after PP1 has lost the zone, the puck is dumped back into the Wings defensive zone and PP1 needs a change. By that time there's 45 seconds or less left in the powerplay. The best way to create is to get it back in the other team's zone fast, and the best way to do that is use your burners to move it up against the other team's 2nd PK unit. It may be this team's best chance of creating something from nothing.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Literally never saw 1 person compare him to Laine. Laine’s draft season was way more impressive.

Filip Zadina Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #4

The latest top prospect coming out of the hockey factory that has become the Halifax Mooseheads, is Filip Zadina. The Czech winger is a pure sniper.

lastwordonsports.com

Projection and Comparison​

Zadina has the potential to be a franchise-defining winger, capable of scoring at an elite rate. There will need to be continued development, including gaining strength. It is not clear if Zadina will be NHL ready right away. He will get the chance, but it is possible he needs a bit more seasoning. In terms of comparison, Zadina’s game is reminiscent of Patrik Laine. This is a style comparison only though, and not one based on skill level or potential.

 

[Frk It]

Filip Zadina Scouting Report: 2018 NHL Draft #4

The latest top prospect coming out of the hockey factory that has become the Halifax Mooseheads, is Filip Zadina. The Czech winger is a pure sniper.

lastwordonsports.com

Projection and Comparison​

Zadina has the potential to be a franchise-defining winger, capable of scoring at an elite rate. There will need to be continued development, including gaining strength. It is not clear if Zadina will be NHL ready right away. He will get the chance, but it is possible he needs a bit more seasoning. In terms of comparison, Zadina’s game is reminiscent of Patrik Laine. This is a style comparison only though, and not one based on skill level or potential.

Well there's a good reason to never read their stuff again, I guess.

Laine was in the conversation for #1 overall with a draft that had Auston Matthews in it. Zadina was just clearly never that level of prospect.

 

[Gniwder]

I mean we can run through the names and I'm still not sure who ends up on a powerplay.

Seider and Hronek. I don't think Edvinsson will get the chance because he wasn't able to hone that part of his game in Frolunda.

Larkin, Copp, Vrana, Bertuzzi, Raymond, Perron. And then what? Kubalik, Zadina, Berggren, Veleno, Ras, Suter

Berggren has to make the roster still, Ras is a bit one dimensional, Veleno hasn't shown enough offensive pop, Suter is the worst option. I think Kubalik and Zadina probably take the last spots, and they just fill in a spot. Unless we get a bigger shakeup to the roster than I'm expecting.

Their stats are actually pretty much equally bad on the PP.

The solution? Sign Phil Kessel on a "Bobby Ryan" PTO, send Erne to GR if Phat Phil shows up in shape.

Kessel is right handed and from Wisconsin. The way I see it, the team has a bunch of players that only have one year left (Suter, Erne, Hagg, Pysyk, Oesterle, Bert, Sunqvist, Maata), what's one more?

Your PP2 lineup goes to show this team is still low on talent after the top 6 forwards.




I'm not really serious, but it would be funny to have Phil on the team. It would be a constant source of amusement. If I was going after an older player it would be Statsny.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Well there's a good reason to never read their stuff again, I guess.

Laine was in the conversation for #1 overall with a draft that had Auston Matthews in it. Zadina was just clearly never that level of prospect.

God his game is not even similar to Laine’s. This is one of the worst comparables I’ve ever seen.

 

[Realgud]

God his game is not even similar to Laine’s. This is one of the worst comparables I’ve ever seen.

Lol how do you guys feel so confident about these takes? It was a comparable in STYLE, not talent. In junior he played a similar game. Just much less skilled and dumber but he played that kind of mid range snipe style with sneaky good hands here and there, and ofc the total lack of defense. Just because he plays differently at the nhl level doesn't change how he played in junior... he just isn't even close to being good enough to play that style at the nhl level. It's a lazy comparison as there are many players with that profile but saying it wasn't similar is just plain wrong.

 

[Frk It]

Lol how do you guys feel so confident about these takes? It was a comparable in STYLE, not talent. In junior he played a similar game. Just much less skilled and dumber but he played that kind of mid range snipe style with sneaky good hands here and there, and ofc the total lack of defense. Just because he plays differently at the nhl level doesn't change how he played in junior... he just isn't even close to being good enough to play that style at the nhl level. It's a lazy comparison as there are many players with that profile but saying it wasn't similar is just plain wrong.

He's not 6'5 and he doesn't shoot the puck nearly that hard. So I'd say it a pretty bad style-comp too.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Their stats are actually pretty much equally bad on the PP.

The solution? Sign Phil Kessel on a "Bobby Ryan" PTO, send Erne to GR if Phat Phil shows up in shape.

Kessel is right handed and from Wisconsin. The way I see it, the team has a bunch of players that only have one year left (Suter, Erne, Hagg, Pysyk, Oesterle, Bert, Sunqvist, Maata), what's one more?

Your PP2 lineup goes to show this team is still low on talent after the top 6 forwards.

I'm not really serious, but it would be funny to have Phil on the team. It would be a constant source of amusement. If I was going after an older player it would be Statsny.

Stastny would be my 1yr deal Suter replacement if we can recoup a 3rd? b/w now & TDL. Also a feel good story for a good dude, solid character vet. "Win it for the old dude something something" Cup chase chant.

Just No to hot dog Fester. + Bergy will be up sometime this season, hopefully Soderblom too.

 

[Realgud]

He's not 6'5 and he doesn't shoot the puck nearly that hard. So I'd say it a pretty bad style-comp too.

I mean, yeah sure, but does Laine even use his 6'5 frame? He doesn't. I'd say the style comp is pretty apt actually, but it's fine if you think otherwise. Seems like made it about skill in your initial post though.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Lol how do you guys feel so confident about these takes? It was a comparable in STYLE, not talent. In junior he played a similar game. Just much less skilled and dumber but he played that kind of mid range snipe style with sneaky good hands here and there, and ofc the total lack of defense. Just because he plays differently at the nhl level doesn't change how he played in junior... he just isn't even close to being good enough to play that style at the nhl level. It's a lazy comparison as there are many players with that profile but saying it wasn't similar is just plain wrong.

They weren’t a good stylistic match. The problem is that Last Word has been absolute shit at writing good scouting reports or draft profiles. They say the same few things about every prospect near the top. It’s a pure click generating approach trying to get a bunch of people who are interested in hearing nice things said about their prospect.

Like I said before, anyone who compared Zadina to Laine had no clue what they were talking about….and here I am being proven correct.

 

[Realgud]

They weren’t a good stylistic match. The problem is that Last Word has been absolute shit at writing good scouting reports or draft profiles. They say the same few things about every prospect near the top. It’s a pure click generating approach trying to get a bunch of people who are interested in hearing nice things said about their prospect.

Like I said before, anyone who compared Zadina to Laine had no clue what they were talking about….and here I am being proven correct.

Yeah the analysises on that website are quite surface level, I agree. But that comparison is absolutely fine. I'm sure a few said Zadina would be as good as Laine, but that would be a big wtf. I disliked the Zadina pick and I'm quite big fan of Laine, even today, but that has nothing to do with the comparison.

 

[Gniwder]

I think the reason he stuck is because he found more offense, not because of grit.

Zadina needs to find a way to generate more shots. His shot generation has been pretty low since he has been in the league. I would hope having more competition for top 9 spots would cause him to elevate his game. We will see. Might be tricky for him to get PP time this year, though. I feel like Kubalik is going to take his spot there.

He stuck because he played some decent 3rd line hockey with grit. He signed a one year $850k deal with the Cap then they extended him by 2. He only put up points his third season with the Caps after they had won the Cup. He then cashed in on that one fluke season, signed with a team hat expected offense and now he's a bust again, lol.

As for 1st round busts that managed to eke out a career? Dan Cleary and Sam Gagner. Similar concept, they changed their game to suit the bottom 6 role (though neither are gritty at all). Patrick Eaves was a late first rounder.

Zadina doesn't have the grit to play a true bottom 6 role, sucks defensively, and gives up too easily on plays. Overcommits then sits there and bangs his stick on the ice after he gets beat. He won't ever be any good because he doesn't know (or understand) the difference between Makar/McAvoy and a 3rd pair D.

 

[The Real Pastafarian]

Who's next? Zadina vs Sundqvist? Zadina vs Stephens?

I'm taking the non-Zadina choice whoever you put him up against. In all seriousness, there are no players that we have under contract who I consider less valuable than Zadina.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Who's next? Zadina vs Sundqvist? Zadina vs Stephens?

I'm taking the non-Zadina choice whoever you put him up against. In all seriousness, there are no players that we have under contract who I consider less valuable than Zadina.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Well there's a good reason to never read their stuff again, I guess.

Laine was in the conversation for #1 overall with a draft that had Auston Matthews in it. Zadina was just clearly never that level of prospect.

Zadina was mocked to go third in most drafts. He was regarded as a sniper goal scorer coming out of junior. I remember the feeling back in 2018 when he "FELL" to us. It felt like we got lucky af and would have a perennial 40 goal scorer if he had hit his ceiling. Now I'd be happy with a 20-25 goal scorer and I think that's a major stretch
...

 

[Hen Kolland]

Who's next? Zadina vs Sundqvist? Zadina vs Stephens?

I'm taking the non-Zadina choice whoever you put him up against. In all seriousness, there are no players that we have under contract who I consider less valuable than Zadina.

Well thankfully, you aren’t in charge of asset management.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Zadina was mocked to go third in most drafts. He was regarded as a sniper goal scorer coming out of junior. I remember the feeling back in 2018 when he "FELL" to us. It felt like we got lucky af and would have a perennial 40 goal scorer if he had hit his ceiling. Now I'd be happy with a 20-25 goal scorer and I think that's a major stretch
...

That’s probably the case, and it’s a good case study for scouting staffs. Because it’s not just the Wings that liked him. If we pass on him at 6, he’s probably still a top 10 pick.

What I will say is this, I don’t think the Zadina we have in Detroit is the same Zadina that played in Halifax. The swagger is missing. The confidence is missing.

You see it when he shoots the puck, when he looks for a pass. It’s why I think that Lalonde is really the last chance we have with Zadina. If he can’t recapture that confidence, he’s going to struggle to accomplish much. And in the meantime, if he can add a layer to his game, it would go a long way. And for his build and athletic profile, I would suggest it be creating deception. Something that can create space and create difficult opportunities for opponents.

He’s not going to play strong enough, nor is he going to become fast enough to rely on those traits. Deception is the only thing that makes a lot of sense.