Prospect Info: Zach Yuen to re-enter draft - didn't get drafted, now UFA

[garret9]

You don't even know if there was even a market to trade Yuen too.

That's the whole point though to what I was saying.

If he goes prior to 6 round, then obviously he has some marketable value.
If he does not, then it's most likely Yuen did not have any marketable value.

If he had marketable value then there is no way Chevy could not have thrown him for a 7th rounder...

So then either Chevy didn't try because he didn't want to or didn't get the opportunity to due to lack of time.
If he didn't get to due to time, then Chevy would have been better to create an internal deadline.

 

[King Woodballs]

No, a bungle is not trading Hainsey at the deadline for something instead of letting him walk for free.

This is not even remotely close to the same thing

This kid may never play in the AHL let alone the NHL... Who knows what the future holds.

 

[King Woodballs]

That's the whole point though to what I was saying.

If he goes prior to 6 round, then obviously he has some marketable value.
If he does not, then it's most likely Yuen did not have any marketable value.

I don't understand people are getting mad about not getting a 5th or 6th round pick for a prospect that may play in the nhl or may filll the water bottles for an ASHL team...

And this is all going on the speculation that he is even going to get drafted again.

No one knows if that is even the case.

 

[garret9]

No, a bungle is not trading Hainsey at the deadline for some and letting him walk for free.

This is not even remotely close to the same thing

This kid may never play in the AHL let alone the NHL... Who knows what the future holds.

Whether he never plays the AHL is moot. If someone will use up a #X draft pick to draft him, they would have used a #(X+Y) draft pick to trade for him. Period.

Hainsey had value in staying to the team. Whether that value outweighs the returns of trading him is both subjective in how you value events that could and could not have occurred (playoffs) and the risks in it not occurring.

I don't understand people are getting mad about not getting a 5th or 6th round pick for a prospect that may play in the nhl or may filll the water bottles for an ASHL team...

And this is all going on the speculation that he is even going to get drafted again.

No one knows if that is even the case.

I'm not getting mad at loss of Yuen specifically.
I'm just saying that if event A occurs (Yuen gets drafted prior to 6th round) then event B could have occurred instead (Jets trade Yuen for a lesser pick to said team), and therefore this is just an example of asset mismanagement, even if it is to a minor asset.

I'm not even saying it WILL happen... as it may very well not.
Pronman said it looks like 5th/6th which may be late enough to say that there was no trade value for event B.

 

[surixon]

Yes and no..
I'm saying if someone picks up Yuen in rounds 1-5 he had value to that someone (and likely others). If he had value that much value it is impossible that Chevy considered all options because he could have dealt the player to that team for less than what they obviously valued Yuen at but more then what Chevy got by letting Yuen walk.

It's not a difficult jump in conclusion.

Bye.

True that there might be teams out there that like him but maybe they don't see the value in giving up assets for him without seeing how things unfold on draft day. Maybe Yuen goes 4th round again that doesn't necessarily mean the team would have been OK giving up an asset for him at the deadline. He may only become an option to teams if many players on there list are already gone, so his value may appreciaye or deppreciate to teams as the day unfolds. There's too many variables at play, grabbing him at the draft opens up another two-year contract window where a team can send him back as an OA for evaluation before making a contract decision.

Or perhaps Chevy made mistakes as you said and could have gotten a fifth for him, I would hope management would do proper due diligence In all cases though.

 

[King Woodballs]

Whether he never plays the AHL is moot. If someone will use up a #X draft pick to draft him, they would have used a #(X+Y) draft pick to trade for him. Period.

Hainsey had value in staying to the team. Whether that value outweighs the returns of trading him is both subjective in how you value events that could and could not have occurred (playoffs) and the risks in it not occurring.

You have zero evidence that this is the case.

You have no idea how the draft will play out.

 

[garret9]

True that there might be teams out there that like him but maybe they don't see the value in giving up assets for him without seeing how things unfold on draft day. Maybe Yuen goes 4th round again that doesn't necessarily mean the team would have been OK giving up an asset for him at the deadline. He may only become an option to teams if many players on there list are already gone, so his value may appreciaye or deppreciate to teams as the day unfolds. There's too many variables at play, grabbing him at the draft opens up another two-year contract window where a team can send him back as an OA for evaluation.

Or perhaps Chevy made mistakes as you said and could have gotten a fifth for him, I would hope are management would do proper due diligence I'm all cases though.

Possible... but unlikely...

That's what I gave the 6th/7th round buffer zone for.
In the 4th round you are not having GMs throwing caution to the wind. These guys have had scouts nitpick every player all the way to the 7th round.

I'm not even definitively saying Chevy made a mistake...
I'm just saying that if he goes in the zone where it is well known that GMs are still making very distinct decisions on players they prefer, then he likely has value.
If he doesn't than no harm, no foul... It happens.

 

[garret9]

You have zero evidence that this is the case.

You have no idea how the draft will play out.

And I never said I did....

That's why I said: "if" ___ could have gotten value and "if not" ___ could not likely have gotten value.




I have yet to definitively state Chevy made an error... whether that be in not signing Yuen or not trading Yuen. I'm not even saying he did or didn't attempt either of these things.

I agree that I have said my preference would be that Yuen was signed, but that doesn't mean I'm right there.

I'm saying if events unfold that indicate Yuen had value to another team, than Chevy could have and did not try that avenue.
If events do not unfold to indicate Yuen had trade value to another team, than we really don't know if the null hypothesis can be thrown out or not.

 

[angrymnky]

Seems to me everyone agrees in this thread except when it leads to the idea that Chevy, however minorly, may have made a mistake. That's when it seems the "it's all conjecture", and "what does it matter anyway" stuff comes out. It is what it is. With no information I don't see how the possibility that Chevy made a mistake can be totally ruled out. There's nothing sacrosanct about Chevy or management here is there?

 

[cheswick]

Whether he never plays the AHL is moot. If someone will use up a #X draft pick to draft him, they would have used a #(X+Y) draft pick to trade for him. Period.

Just cause you say period, doesn't mean its true. A team may not have been willing to trade for him for fear he would simply enter the draft and they blew the traded pick for no reason.

Also a team may not have been willing to trade a pick for him cause they want to hold their picks to see how the draft plays out. IF X,Y, Z are already taken will draft Yuen with our 5th, but we rank X,Y,Z over Yuen and there's a chance that X,Y,Z will still be available with our 5th 6th and 7th picks. So we're not gonna trade those picks for a Yuen when keeping them will leave us with more flexability to draft players at those times, rather than lockign in the Yuen for that particular pick. So once the draft plays out maybe Yuen is taken with the teams 5th but they were not willing to trade a 6th or 7th for him cause they were hopeful to be able to snatch someone else with those picks. That far into the draft indivisual teams rankings are completely different

 

[allan5oh]

Just cause you say period, doesn't mean its true. A team may not have been willing to trade for him for fear he would simply enter the draft and they blew the traded pick for no reason.

That's a good point, and I will add to it. If you pick the player through the draft, you get another two years of his rights. That's also worth something.

 

[Gm0ney]

Seems to me everyone agrees in this thread except when it leads to the idea that Chevy, however minorly, may have made a mistake. That's when it seems the "it's all conjecture", and "what does it matter anyway" stuff comes out. It is what it is. With no information I don't see how the possibility that Chevy made a mistake can be totally ruled out. There's nothing sacrosanct about Chevy or management here is there?

Just the usual back-and-forth between critics and defenders. I'm pretty hard on Chevy because, IMO, he hasn't done much to help the team.

Biggest UFA signing: Jokinen
Biggest trade acquisition: Fehr
Best trade: Oduya for Chicago's 2013 2nd and 2013 3rd.
Best UFA signing: Wellwood?
Worst UFA signing: Jokinen
Best contract: Ladd.
Worst contract: Pavelec
Best waiver pickup: Clitsome
Worst waiver pickup: Miettinen
Best draft pick: Trouba?
Worst draft pick: Sutter? Yuen?

It's a pretty dismal record. Good lord, 2 years in and it's between Clitsome and Wellwood for the Best Player Added by Chevy Award. Think about that, Chevy Defenders!

Edit: Worst player added by Chevy? I've narrowed it down to a Finnish player...

 

[pucka lucka]

I wish people would actually read posts before going after posters. garret was speculating on the possible scenarios in which Yuen wasn't signed. Some of those point to a mistake by the GM. That's it. There isn't really any need to defend Chevy's honour.

 

[cheswick]

Just the usual back-and-forth between critics and defenders. I'm pretty hard on Chevy because, IMO, he hasn't done much to help the team.

Biggest UFA signing: Jokinen
Biggest trade acquisition: Fehr
Best trade: Oduya for Chicago's 2013 2nd and 2013 3rd.
Best UFA signing: Wellwood?
Worst UFA signing: Jokinen
Best contract: Ladd.
Worst contract: Pavelec
Best waiver pickup: Clitsome
Worst waiver pickup: Miettinen
Best draft pick: Trouba?
Worst draft pick: Sutter? Yuen?

It's a pretty dismal record. Good lord, 2 years in and it's between Clitsome and Wellwood for the Best Player Added by Chevy Award. Think about that, Chevy Defenders!

Go through the 30 GM's in the league and look at what they've done in the last 2 years. Chevy is probably in the top half of the league in terms of moves. People too often think the NHL is run like an EA sports game where trades happen on a whim and its a simple matter of wanting to sign a player and you'll get him.

I personally don' tunderstand the constant bashing of the Jokinen signing. He was one of the most sought after free agents last summer. The level of his poor play wasn't predicable.

 

[atl thrasher344]

Go through the 30 GM's in the league and look at what they've done in the last 2 years. Chevy is probably in the top half of the league in terms of moves.

Even if you count the Jokinen signing as a plus, there is no way he is in the top-15. He simply hasn't done much at all that has improved the team. When your best moves have been drafting players in the top-10, you aren't a top half GM.

 

[Gm0ney]

Go through the 30 GM's in the league and look at what they've done in the last 2 years. Chevy is probably in the top half of the league in terms of moves.

Do you mean in terms of number of moves (I agree - Chevy's been moving a lot of AHL and bottom-6 talent around) or quality (I'd be surprised if there are 15 teams that have done worse)?

I don't have the time to go through the whole league - can you think of 10 GMs that have done less to improve their team over the last 2 seasons? With worst "best acquisitions" than Clitsome/Wellwood?

 

[surixon]

Do you mean in terms of number of moves (I agree - Chevy's been moving a lot of AHL and bottom-6 talent around) or quality (I'd be surprised if there are 15 teams that have done worse)?

I don't have the time to go through the whole league - can you think of 10 GMs that have done less to improve their team over the last 2 seasons? With worst "best acquisitions" than Clitsome/Wellwood?

Hard to acquire anything when your cupboards are bare. His marching orders were to draft and develop assets in house so I'm not sure what you are expecting from him. Did you think he could trade a Cormier and 3rd for a top 6er or did you think ownership would let him sign a Praise to one of those mega retirement contracts. He has executed fairly well within the parameters he inherited.

 

[allan5oh]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=67009545&postcount=99

There you go, it does happen.

 

[Gm0ney]

Hard to acquire anything when your cupboards are bare. His marching orders were to draft and develop assets in house so I'm not sure what you are expecting from him. Did you think he could trade a Cormier and 3rd for a top 6er or did you think ownership would let him sign a Praise to one of those mega retirement contracts. He has executed fairly well within the parameters he inherited.

Ah the bare cupboards again. I guess the cupboards were overflowing with talent in Atlanta when Rick Dudley acquired Byfuglien, Ladd, Wheeler and Stuart via trades?

 

[surixon]

Ah the bare cupboards again. I guess the cupboards were overflowing with talent in Atlanta when Rick Dudley acquired Byfuglien, Ladd, Wheeler and Stuart via trades?

Dudley took advantage of a team in cap hell and kudos to him, but such a situation hasn't come up since. He gave up a number of high draft choices as well as a former first round prospect to make it happen though as a result the prospect depth took a hit.

Chevy has done a good job improving that lost depth while retaining a solid core and adding cheap inexpensive depth pieces. All the while improving this team in the standings more than Dudley did.

 

[garret9]

Just cause you say period, doesn't mean its true. A team may not have been willing to trade for him for fear he would simply enter the draft and they blew the traded pick for no reason.

Also a team may not have been willing to trade a pick for him cause they want to hold their picks to see how the draft plays out. IF X,Y, Z are already taken will draft Yuen with our 5th, but we rank X,Y,Z over Yuen and there's a chance that X,Y,Z will still be available with our 5th 6th and 7th picks. So we're not gonna trade those picks for a Yuen when keeping them will leave us with more flexability to draft players at those times, rather than lockign in the Yuen for that particular pick. So once the draft plays out maybe Yuen is taken with the teams 5th but they were not willing to trade a 6th or 7th for him cause they were hopeful to be able to snatch someone else with those picks. That far into the draft indivisual teams rankings are completely different

These are really strong points.
Some logical retorts.
Thank you! Thank you!

Although, Yuen could still just end up going to UFA too if that were the case.
There's always some fear, probably more being his second time in the draft.

But, I can still see this being a possibility.
It then becomes a question about what the value in risk of guys teams covet falling to flyer picks.

 

[atl thrasher344]

Dudley took advantage of a team in cap hell and kudos to him, but such a situation hasn't come up since. He gave up a number of high draft choices as well as a former first round prospect to make it happen though as a result the prospect depth took a hit.

Chevy has done a good job improving that lost depth while retaining a solid core and adding cheap inexpensive depth pieces. All the while improving this team in the standings more than Dudley did.

You downplay the CHI trades, and left out the Wheeler trade which was just as important.

Additionally, the Jets finished the season with 51 points, compared to 50 at the same number of games last year and 53 two years ago. That's real great improvement.

Finally, if the cupboards are so bare, Chevy shouldn't have basically tossed three of our prospects.

 

[allan5oh]

He also gained Olkinoura and went hard after Raanta.

 

[KCjetsfan]

Finally, if the cupboards are so bare, Chevy shouldn't have basically tossed three of our prospects.

I think this is the important point. If the cupboards are bare, then you keep the scraps around until you restock.

(This is assuming it was an org decision and not a player decision to not re-sign)

 

[surixon]

You downplay the CHI trades, and left out the Wheeler trade which was just as important.

Additionally, the Jets finished the season with 51 points, compared to 50 at the same number of games last year and 53 two years ago. That's real great improvement.

Finally, if the cupboards are so bare, Chevy shouldn't have basically tossed three of our prospects.

Not downplaying them. The Wheeler trade was good as well, but he gave up a good player in Peverlly to get them.

He made some good moves but as a result didn't leave Chevy much to work with. Other than Yuen which prospects has he tossed? Aliue, Machuck? Neither of those are great prospects.