Player Discussion Zach Bogosian

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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Bogo being played over these guys is squarely the decision of the coach - not the GM. Not surprising however that you would turn it into a direct criticism of the GM...

I'm not absolving Krueger of blame. But there is currently one person who can take a direct and decisive action that would result in Bogo absolutely not playing.... and he also happens to you know... be the guy in charte.

Yes - the GM could take the coach's toy away - but I would hope that these guys have a cooperative working relationship instead of needing to work against each other in the way you describe.

Yea, and I am currently presuming that they are cooperating on playing Bogo to get something for him at the trade deadline. I also, give Krueger a bit of a pass in that Miller is also terrible.

The nature of the shitty choice between Bogo and Miller, changes significantly after the trade deadline.

Maybe a team gets desperate & would give a 7th for Bogo with max retention? Maybe that's what they are hoping for?

Yes, that is the only plausible excuse for their decisions with Bogo up to this point. And again, that excuse disappears after the trade deadline.

After the TDL there are no excuses though - I agree. Botts needs to force Krueger's hand if need be. I'm sure that Krueger understands both the direct & indirect benefits & if he doesn't it's a black mark against him from my POV.

So what are you arguing with me about? Seems you just had a knee jerk reaction to holding Botts accountable.
 

Rowley Birkin

Registered User
Oct 31, 2004
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I'm not absolving Krueger of blame. But there is currently one person who can take a direct and decisive action that would result in Bogo absolutely not playing.... and he also happens to you know... be the guy in charte.

Yea, and I am currently presuming that they are cooperating on playing Bogo to get something for him at the trade deadline. I also, give Krueger a bit of a pass in that Miller is also terrible.

The nature of the ****ty choice between Bogo and Miller, changes significantly after the trade deadline.

Yes, that is the only plausible excuse for their decisions with Bogo up to this point. And again, that excuse disappears after the trade deadline.

So what are you arguing with me about? Seems you just had a knee jerk reaction to holding Botts accountable.

Using this to fuel your anti Botterill agenda. Just like you (plus some other old timers) seem to do with every single post these days.

Your assessment of the players - the situation - needing to decide on Montour, needing to give Miller a defined role/partner etc - I'm in total agreement with.
 
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Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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Using this to fuel your anti Botterill agenda. Just like you (plus some other old timers) seem to do with every single post these days.

Your assessment of the players - the situation - needing to decide on Montour, needing to give Miller a defined role/partner etc - I'm in total agreement with.

you don’t need an agenda to be anti-Botterill, all you need is some common sense.

there’s no additional fuel needed, nearly everything he does doses the flames in rocket fuel

Jason Botterill sees fit to keep Bogo on the roster, just like he was fine with keeping Sobotka on the roster. He’s a nincompoop.

your in total agreement except when those agreements point directly to Botts incompetence
 

kirby11

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Mar 16, 2011
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Buffalo, NY
That's... just stupid.

Krueger has shown his hand. He'll play Bogo.

It's up to the GM to rectify that. Not only for the good of the present season, but also for the good of the future. Miller is under contract for... gulp... 2 more years. And Botts also has a big decision to make contract wise with Montour. He has to force Krueger's hand a bit to gain as much information as possible heading in to this summer.

Botts has stupidly made the case that he's trying to trade Bogo, but once the trade deadline passes, the only acceptable decision from Botts is to waive Bogo. It optomizes the current lineup, and provides the best information on the upcoming roster decisions that need to be made.

Dahlin-Joki
Pilut-Risto
Montour-Miller
x McCabe

That lineup would be great but the problem is McCabe is never coming out. Ralph seems to love the guy no matter what he does. So even without Bogo we'll probably keep healthy scratching Miller or send Pilut back down to the AHL when the solution is, as you pointed out, playing both of them in favor of benching McCabe.
 
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debaser66

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Well its not just who this GM fails to bring in...
His roster management is awful..
Is he really forcing this guy into the line up to gain value?
Maybe he can get a 7th round pick
To give it away for free at the draft while hurting this team to have any chance at staying in the hunt for a WC spot.
 

mechaworm

Registered User
Nov 5, 2019
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Bogosian can't be sent down after the trade deadline unless he'd already been sent down before it.
Really? Did not know that.

Regardless, bogosian is probably nursing his third pair minutes every other game or so until he walks. GMs almost never waive a veteran like that unless it's a situation where he's not even in the lineup. If Krueger legitimately thinks bogosian is a borderline asset, the GM will defer.

I would also like that not to be how the world works, but it's what you see over a lifetime of watching the NHL. Botts didn't invent vet culture.
 

Chainshot

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On one hand, it could be that they want to continue to showcase Bogosian in case someone happens to catch him having an atypical good game. On the other, there is the persistent use of a guy like Sobotka on the 2nd line even when it was pretty clear he was a detriment offensively. I don't think Botterill is pushing Krueger to play Bogosian from how Botterill has operated in the past both with his comments about the coach making the lineup decisions and his odd-ball recall commentary about guys like O'Regan and others who he would have liked to have seen but didn't (aka. his coach was under no obligation to play a recall).

I like Krueger more than any coach since Ruff. That said, his insistence on some of these roster moves is aggravating. In a way, I'm reminded of Tennyson getting first pairing TOI and then sticking around after the injury bug (Bogo included) passed early in Phil's first year because Tennyson "practiced the right way". I'm sure Bogo is doing what the staff is asking. There remains a tremendous amount of deference in hockey in general for what someone has done before, and also for draft status, that have nothing really to do with on-ice performance. Vets play and make mistakes? They stay in the lineup. Younger players or non-tenured vets (ie. new to the team) make those mistakes and they come out of the lineup. Buffalo has been running that sort of inconsistent party line for just about forever. It's old school, Eddie Shore ancient sort of stuff, and they're steeped in that bit.

That said, it's a strong leader who would step in and stop the madness. Botterill could very easily make the situation stop by simply sending Bogosian home. Is he afraid of what the team group text is going to look like? The room reaction? I don't know, but for the good of the many, fans and standing points included, it needs to be done. Metaphorically, Jason needs to take Zach out behind the barn.
 

Buffaloed

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Feb 27, 2002
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I think Bogosian is being given a soft ride because of his service to the community. That side of Bogosian represents the culture the Sabres are trying to grow. His friendship with Eichel doesn't hurt either. Krueger understands the dynamics of his locker room.
 

mechaworm

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Nov 5, 2019
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"Why doesn't the GM waive the whipping boy?" just seems like one of those fan classics to me. Everybody's got an overpaid borderline vet at some point that they wish would go away faster and they seldom do. I'd look elsewhere for your signs of GM (in)competence.
 
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tsujimoto74

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May 28, 2012
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Bogosian can't be sent down after the trade deadline unless he'd already been sent down before it.

I know he wouldn't be eligible to play in the AHL playoffs if he's not on the Amerks roster before the TDL, but you're saying he can't be waived at all?
 

Dirty Dog

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"Why doesn't the GM waive the whipping boy?" just seems like one of those fan classics to me. Everybody's got an overpaid borderline vet at some point that they wish would go away faster and they seldom do. I'd look elsewhere for your signs of GM (in)competence.

Well, the whipping boy has also demanded a trade and is often-scratched, so it really isn't the traditional shit on the whipping boy. Also, bogo is assssss
 

sabrebuild

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Apr 21, 2014
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"Why doesn't the GM waive the whipping boy?" just seems like one of those fan classics to me. Everybody's got an overpaid borderline vet at some point that they wish would go away faster and they seldom do. I'd look elsewhere for your signs of GM (in)competence.

Classics don't make things not true. Why ignore one sign of incompetence? Signs of incompetence are not important based on the commonality, but because they are signs of incompetence.
 

debaser66

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Didn't he get the A at the beginning of last season.
Was already dubious at that point.
I guess once you can fake culture they don't catch you fake playing hockey...
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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I think Bogosian is being given a soft ride because of his service to the community. That side of Bogosian represents the culture the Sabres are trying to grow. His friendship with Eichel doesn't hurt either. Krueger understands the dynamics of his locker room.

This, IMO, is the under discussed as an explanation...
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
52,673
9,037
Florida
"Why doesn't the GM waive the whipping boy?" just seems like one of those fan classics to me. Everybody's got an overpaid borderline vet at some point that they wish would go away faster and they seldom do. I'd look elsewhere for your signs of GM (in)competence.

Nonsense

The following multi million dollar players have all been waived by teams that clearly take roster management more seriously:

Kovalchuk
Backes
Manning
M.Granlund
Ladd
Schneider
Ericsson
Gagner
Hickey
Baertschi

... it's hardly seldom
 
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dotcommunism

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Aug 16, 2007
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I know he wouldn't be eligible to play in the AHL playoffs if he's not on the Amerks roster before the TDL, but you're saying he can't be waived at all?

He can't be put on waivers? You're breaking my heart here....

He could be waived, sure. But if he clears he can't be sent down, so he'd just stay on the roster. So you'd pretty much just have to hope someone claims him. That would require a team having an injury post-deadline and needing a depth defenseman, and not only that but needing someone who won't be playoff eligible. Not only that, they'd need to be able to take on his entire cap hit. I suppose a team could trade for Bogo post-deadline with retention so they could save on cap if those same specific circumstances arose, but it's hard to see that happening. If no one's going to take him on at the deadline even with 50% retained, it's really hard to see anyone claiming him on waivers after the deadline.
 

Icicle

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Bogosian can't be sent down after the trade deadline unless he'd already been sent down before it.
Oh, a fact I did not want to worry about


Can he be waived minutes before the deadline if Botts can’t find a trade last minute?
 

Buffaloed

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Feb 27, 2002
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I'd be having a discussion with Bogo about mutually agreeing to terminate his contract (aka the Berglund solution). Bogo gives up his remaining salary and can sign wherever he wants. The Sabres get some cap relief and can balance their roster. Tell his agent if he can negotiate a deal for the remainder of the season with another team the Sabres will agree to terminate. Put the ball in Bogosian's court.
 
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dotcommunism

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Aug 16, 2007
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To add to the above, players must be on loan at the time of the trade deadline (with some minor provisions for players who are injured while on recall at the time of the deadline) to be eligible to be loaned to the minors following the trade deadline. In the case of a player who needs to pass through waivers, they must have been loaned prior to the trade deadline, which means they must have already cleared waivers. So, to send a such a player down before the trade deadline, he would need to be placed on waivers by noon of the day before the deadline.
 
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