Confirmed with Link: Zac Rinaldo Signed to 2 year Extension

[DrinkFightFlyers]

So you can't actually come up with a reason why they couldn't wait till after the season to sign him to this deal. Thought not.

No there is no reason why the couldn't wait. I'm not saying there is. I'm saying there doesn't need to be because this isn't a contract that is going to cause any problems even if he never steps foot on NHL again. Again, maybe I am wrong about that because the CBA isn't always clear, but my understanding is that his contract is low enough that if waived, there is no cap issues. You are 100% there was no need to sign him right now. I do not dispute that one bit. But there was also no need to wait until the end of the season. We know what Rinaldo is. Yes, Berube said he can be a top 9 forward (OMG THAT MEANS HE IS GOING TO REPLACE MICHAEL RAFFL ON THE THIRD LINE), but in reality that was likely just the coach saying nice things about the newly signed player (what did you expect him to say, "Well, look he is a scrub agitator that we signed just to get under the skin of other teams").

 

[Striiker]

It didn't happen last year though. He made mistakes and made bad plays, for sure. No doubt about that. But he wasn't constantly losing games for the team or even costing the team advantages, etc. For sure, it happened at times. No doubt about that. But he wasn't played on a daily basis in the face of his destroying the team's chances.



That goes to the use of the agitator. You obviously don't like that role being on this team. The brass does. I think it helps in ways that don't show up on the score sheet. You can talk all day about how useless he is because he cost the team goals/penalties/wins/whatever, but at the end of the day he serves a purpose. He is not detrimental 60% of the time. That is a ridiculous arbitrary number. He only takes like 15-20 shifts a game, if that. You are using the term detrimental very loosely if you are coming up with that percentage. Yes, he might turn the puck over or make a bad defensive read...but that happens countless times with all players throughout the game. It doesn't mean it is "detrimental" to the team. If it is, half the ******* NHL is detrimental more than they are useful. Taking a bad penalty, blowing a coverage that leads to a goal...that is the type of thing that is detrimental...and Rinaldo doesn't do that 60% of the time.



The logic is they wanted a 4th line agitator and they got one. Seems pretty logical to me. No one expects him to be anything more than that.

I know he wasn't constantly losing them games, I just said that, but he wasn't ever helping them win games either. So there were some times when he was detrimental to them and other times when he was irrelevant... that's the two options, irrelevant or detrimental. That isn't the type of player that Stanley cup winning teams have.

And sure, other players mess up, it's not only Rinaldo, but those players actually serve a tangible service to the team that wins games. You're not detrimental if you mess up sometimes, you're detrimental if you mess up sometimes and your best case scenario is being irrelevant. Look at someone like Hall, he's not a very good hockey player, but he can win faceoffs and PK, that makes up for the fact that he's irrelevant-to-bad at 5v5 like Rinaldo. If Rinaldo could at least PK or even draw more penalties than he takes, then he has a place on this team but right now just being an agitator who can't control himself isn't enough.

Yes, Berube said he can be a top 9 forward (OMG THAT MEANS HE IS GOING TO REPLACE MICHAEL RAFFL ON THE THIRD LINE), but in reality that was likely just the coach saying nice things about the newly signed player (what did you expect him to say, "Well, look he is a scrub agitator that we signed just to get under the skin of other teams").

Except that Berube has used him there in the past so clearly he's not just saying that because he was being interviewed... he actually believes it and we have proof of that.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

I know he wasn't constantly losing them games, I just said that, but he wasn't ever helping them win games either. So there were some times when he was detrimental to them and other times when he was irrelevant... that's the two options, irrelevant or detrimental. That isn't the type of player that Stanley cup winning teams have.

And sure, other players mess up, it's not only Rinaldo, but those players actually serve a tangible service to the team that wins games. You're not detrimental if you mess up sometimes, you're detrimental if you mess up sometimes and your best case scenario is being irrelevant. Look at someone like Hall, he's not a very good hockey player, but he can win faceoffs and PK, that makes up for the fact that he's irrelevant-to-bad at 5v5 like Rinaldo. If Rinaldo could at least PK or even draw more penalties than he takes, then he has a place on this team but right now just being an agitator who can't control himself isn't enough.

That ignores the other aspects of Rinaldo's game. I know that folks don't like it, but he does get under folks' skin, he does draw penalties (albeit not more than he takes), he hits everything, and he juices up the crowd at times. Again, you may not think that is worth anything (or is worth less than what another player brings), but the organization thinks otherwise.

Except that Berube has used him there in the past so clearly he's not just saying that because he was being interviewed... he actually believes it and we have proof of that.

He was getting less than 8 minutes per game last season on average...what third liners get that much ice time? Perhaps he took a shift or two with the third line, but he wasn't being used as a third liner.

 

[2Claude2Giroux]

lol such a waste of a signing

the people defending this signing should come back to this thread when the flyers are out of the SCF again and the teams who are playing in it have actual 4th lines that can contribute to the game

 

[GKJ]

You guys know what juices up the crowd?

Goals. They even have horns and sirens go off

 

[Random Forest]

He was getting less than 8 minutes per game last season on average...what third liners get that much ice time? Perhaps he took a shift or two with the third line, but he wasn't being used as a third liner.

Ever stop and think that maybe this is part of the problem?

We need fourth liners who are capable of playing 10-11 minutes per game. Not 7:30.

We need fourth liners that can make things easier for the top nine. Not guys who hog the easy minutes.

We need fourth liners that can move up the lineup when injuries hit and not get in the way. Not guys who consistently drag down every forward they play alongside.

We need fourth liners who can help out on the PK. We need fourth liners who can chip in occasionally on offense. We need fourth liners that can take a moderate match up. We need fourth liners who can play hockey AND offer the sandpaper that you keep telling us about.


Rinaldo serves one purpose: to annoy people. He does that very, very well. But there are so many other things that he CAN'T do that it makes him a net detriment, and not a minor one.

 

[GKJ]

because they can! that's why!

Flyers are capped out, don't want to risk him being exposed to offer sheets.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Remember when our SCF team had a fourth line consisting of Lappy/Betts/Powe and we could throw them out to challenge possession and block shots and PK and win board battles and hit and fight and force a cycle (even if it almost never ended in a goal for)? Aw, good memories.

I don't get why people can be fine with a regular fourth liner being useless. A great fourth line has some form of use and utility that is contributor to winning hockey games. It's not okay to suck and say "meh, fourth liner". Anyone who watched our SCF year should know what a good one can do. Guys like Rinaldo put extra pressure and work on the rest of the lineup since the other team doesn't have to plan around him and he can put the team on the PK easily. That all actually hurts the chances of winning. I prefer winning to fights and hitting.

Also, even if he's a 13th forward, why have him signed three freaking years and before the first year is even up? It makes zero sense. You can say "meh, small thing" but it's besides the point. We see these stupid signing all the time with Walker, Gil, etc. and it's never anything but a used contract spot and no hopes of anything better. So why?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

You guys know what juices up the crowd?

Goals. They even have horns and sirens go off

you know what juices a crowd just as much???

BIG hits n fights...

ladies n gentlemen i present to you, Zac-attack Rinaldo...

 

[BrimFullofAsham45]

lol such a waste of a signing

the people defending this signing should come back to this thread when the flyers are out of the SCF again and the teams who are playing in it have actual 4th lines that can contribute to the game

Right. People who expect the Flyers to be in the SCF before Rinaldo's shiny new contract expires need to temper their expectations. And if the Flyers do indeed get bounced in the fourth round by 2017, I can guarantee it won't be because the fourth line isn't good enough.

There's a lot of moaning and groaning in this thread for a caphit that's more of a rounding error than anything else. A roster spot for Rinaldo in the next three seasons is far from a given, and he's not a waste of space to the degree the bemoaners in this thread are making him out to be. This is just misappropriately being used as fodder for evidence of the long held misbelief that our management is living in the past. Rinaldo fills a role, albeit not a valuable one. The timing of the move doesn't compute but I hardly see this as a negative.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

Ever stop and think that maybe this is part of the problem?

We need fourth liners who are capable of playing 10-11 minutes per game. Not 7:30.

We need fourth liners that can make things easier for the top nine. Not guys who hog the easy minutes.

We need fourth liners that can move up the lineup when injuries hit and not get in the way. Not guys who consistently drag down every forward they play alongside.

We need fourth liners who can help out on the PK. We need fourth liners who can chip in occasionally on offense. We need fourth liners that can take a moderate match up. We need fourth liners who can play hockey AND offer the sandpaper that you keep telling us about.

That's all well and good. Rinaldo is not the best 4th line player out there. I'm not saying he is. But you are severely overestimating Rinaldo's impact on this team vs. the impact of another 4th liner (perhaps there is a big difference between Rinaldo and the best 4th liners in the league, but we don't have an opportunity to get the best 4th liners in the league at the moment). If we could get a top notch 4th liner, I'd be all for it. But those guys are all taken for the most part from what I see, unless there is someone else out there that I am missing. If we could get a third liner to sign for under $1 million and play on the 4th line...even better. But that is easier said than done. Rinaldo is fine in the 4th line role. If Penner comes and makes the team (I know Hextall said that he isn't, just using him as an example) and Rinaldo gets relegated to 13th forward or the AHL, I would be more than happy. But if he is starting over some unproven guy or some scrub 4th liner whose name is not Zac Rinaldo, that would be fine too.

Rinaldo serves one purpose: to annoy people. He does that very, very well. But there are so many other things that he CAN'T do that it makes him a net detriment, and not a minor one.

Do you have anything to back up the fact that he is not a minor detriment? I fully agree he is not some great impactful offensive or defensive specialist. I fully agree he is not some great piece to this team. But I don't see him as some hindrance. He takes penalties, for sure. He makes mistakes and bad plays, absolutely. But in his 15 shifts per game he is not just a bumbling idiot that the team has to cover for at all times.

 

[Striiker]

That ignores the other aspects of Rinaldo's game. I know that folks don't like it, but he does get under folks' skin, he does draw penalties (albeit not more than he takes), he hits everything, and he juices up the crowd at times. Again, you may not think that is worth anything (or is worth less than what another player brings), but the organization thinks otherwise.

He gets under the opponents skin but he also gets agitated by opponents and can't control himself. You keep saying he agitates, but if that were actually helping the team he'd be drawing more penalties than he's taking. He can draw 1000 penalties, but if he's taking 1001 penalties then it's not helpful and can't be looked at as a positive attribute. If he were able to draw more penalties than he takes then he'd be useful, but he didn't do that his first year and he didn't do that in the most recent year so I'm not going to judge him based off a small outlier when he actually did.

He was getting less than 8 minutes per game last season on average...what third liners get that much ice time? Perhaps he took a shift or two with the third line, but he wasn't being used as a third liner.

It doesn't matter how long he was there, the fact is that he was taking shifts with Couturiers line. That means against the opponents best forwards, which is an issue. I don't want out best defensively being hindered by a pest. It doesn't take a long time for the opponent to score so making he line worse, even for 30 seconds, is a problem.

you know what juices a crowd just as much???

BIG hits n fights...

ladies n gentlemen i present to you, Zac-attack Rinaldo...

You know what really makes a crowd happy? Winning the game.

Do you think fans would rather see the team win the game or see a fight? Any fan that would rather see a fight than the team win is an idiot and not a real fan.

So, seeing as fights don't help teams win games, I'd say scoring goals and being good defensively is a tad bit more important, aka two things Rinaldo is incapable of doing.

 

[Random Forest]

That's all well and good. Rinaldo is not the best 4th line player out there. I'm not saying he is. But you are severely overestimating Rinaldo's impact on this team vs. the impact of another 4th liner (perhaps there is a big difference between Rinaldo and the best 4th liners in the league, but we don't have an opportunity to get the best 4th liners in the league at the moment). If we could get a top notch 4th liner, I'd be all for it. But those guys are all taken for the most part from what I see, unless there is someone else out there that I am missing. If we could get a third liner to sign for under $1 million and play on the 4th line...even better. But that is easier said than done. Rinaldo is fine in the 4th line role. If Penner comes and makes the team (I know Hextall said that he isn't, just using him as an example) and Rinaldo gets relegated to 13th forward or the AHL, I would be more than happy. But if he is starting over some unproven guy or some scrub 4th liner whose name is not Zac Rinaldo, that would be fine too.

There were PLENTY of strong fourth line options available on the open market this summer. Vern Fiddler, Marcel Goc, etc.

As a one-for-one swap, does it make that much of a difference? Probably not. But when you start to consider that Goc (or whomever) could match up against top six opposing forwards for 10 minutes a game, and leave easier match ups for our own offensive weapons, that difference begins to grow by a not so insignificant amount.

Rinaldo by himself is whatever. But when you figure in his effect on the rest of the lineup and our allotment of minutes and match ups, his detriment to the team begins to grow.

Do you have anything to back up the fact that he is not a minor detriment? I fully agree he is not some great impactful offensive or defensive specialist. I fully agree he is not some great piece to this team. But I don't see him as some hindrance. He takes penalties, for sure. He makes mistakes and bad plays, absolutely. But in his 15 shifts per game he is not just a bumbling idiot that the team has to cover for at all times.

As a matter of fact, I do:

(I'd give you the link, but the site is down right now)

Just about every player on the roster had more success when on the ice without Rinaldo than they did with him.

The only exception was Adam Hall, but that makes sense because when he wasn't with Rinaldo, he was taking D zone draws, so you'd expect his corsi to be low under those circumstances.

He makes everyone worse. I like the guy, and I think he works very hard and has a great attitude in the room, but he's a bad hockey player.

 

[Stizzle]

So you can't actually come up with a reason why they couldn't wait till after the season to sign him to this deal. Thought not.

It's a contract with little risk because it's such little money. If you sour on him he is tradeable. If he isn't tradeable, bury him in the AHL with no cap penalty. If he "gets it" and finds his niche, then you have a nice value contract. I'm guessing that is the logic.

 

[Curufinwe]

The only way they wouldn't be able to sign him to the same deal a year from now is if he somehow becomes a solid penalty killer and a 15-20 point scorer. Which is extremely unlikely.

If they use this extension as a way to get more value in a trade for Rinaldo during this current season I'll happily admit I was wrong and prostrate myself before the genius of Ron Hextall.

 

[Striiker]

It's a contract with little risk because it's such little money. If you sour on him he is tradeable. If he isn't tradeable, bury him in the AHL with no cap penalty. If he "gets it" and finds his niche, then you have a nice value contract. I'm guessing that is the logic.

That doesn't answer the question at all.

The question was "why sign him to a new contract now?".

You answered "why sign him to a contract at all?".

There is no reason to sign him now instead of 10 months from now. It's not like he's going to walk as a FA or as if we needed to sign him now for a better deal.

 

[DrHamburg]

This makes perfect sense. Resign him now, because he will be on the line with couts and read and will get 15 goals and 20 assists and will be a bargain of a contract..... Right??

 

[Curufinwe]

The one reason I can think of is this thread title that we will hopefully see in November or December.

"Confirmed with Link: Zac Rinaldo traded to Calgary Flames for 2nd round pick".

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

There were PLENTY of strong fourth line options available on the open market this summer. Vern Fiddler, Marcel Goc, etc.

As a one-for-one swap, does it make that much of a difference? Probably not. But when you start to consider that Goc (or whomever) could match up against top six opposing forwards for 10 minutes a game, and leave easier match ups for our own offensive weapons, that difference begins to grow by a not so insignificant amount.

I would have been fine swapping Rinaldo for one of them, but it should be noted that both players are making $500k more than Rinaldo. Also, just because players were available does not mean they would have signed here for the same contract...perhaps they would have wanted more, perhaps they would have taken less. But either way, I would have been totally fine signing either one of those players and having Rinaldo as either 13th or just gone. I'm not saying Rinaldo is better than those guys, just that he is fine for what he is.

Rinaldo by himself is whatever. But when you figure in his effect on the rest of the lineup and our allotment of minutes and match ups, his detriment to the team begins to grow.





As a matter of fact, I do:

(I'd give you the link, but the site is down right now)

Just about every player on the roster had more success when on the ice without Rinaldo than they did with him.

The only exception was Adam Hall, but that makes sense because when he wasn't with Rinaldo, he was taking D zone draws, so you'd expect his corsi to be low under those circumstances.

He makes everyone worse. I like the guy, and I think he works very hard and has a great attitude in the room, but he's a bad hockey player.

The slight changes to these players does not indicate to me that he "makes other players worse" while he is with them. First of all, the guys with the biggest difference on offense played little to nothing with Rinaldo in comparison to the time without Rinaldo, and the others are defensemen. The guys that actually played with him the most didn't have a very drastic change on offense (Hall and Couturier actually faired better with him).

 

[ILoveStephanieBrown]

Has Hextall commented on this at all yet? Whatever he sees in Rinaldo that's worthy of extending his contract, I'd really like to hear it.... in tremendous, quantified detail.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

The slight changes to these players does not indicate to me that he "makes other players worse" while he is with them. First of all, the guys with the biggest difference on offense played little to nothing with Rinaldo in comparison to the time without Rinaldo, and the others are defensemen. The guys that actually played with him the most didn't have a very drastic change on offense (Hall and Couturier actually faired better with him).

You're reading the stats wrong, if that's what you got out of it. Only Adam Hall and VandeVelde have a worse CF% away from Rinaldo amongst the forwards. MacDonald is the only one amongst the defensemen.

Rinaldo is not a good hockey player and the team collectively plays better when he's not on the ice.

I get it; you like him. The stats don't support why you should, though.

 

[Stizzle]

That doesn't answer the question at all.

The question was "why sign him to a new contract now?".

You answered "why sign him to a contract at all?".

There is no reason to sign him now instead of 10 months from now. It's not like he's going to walk as a FA or as if we needed to sign him now for a better deal.

Because at this moment you are getting him below the NHL/AHL cap burying limit. There is almost no downside. And yes, as pointed out a few posts ago, his trade value has increased.

edit: I'm not a huge Rinaldo fan or anything. I just think some of you are freaking out for no reason. I freaked out when we signed Vinny, because the downside was very apparent. There isn't much risk here. It's really just whatever.

 

[Curufinwe]

The risk is that Rinaldo is once again a possession anchor on the 4th line, and instead of being able to put out a defensively sound 4th line against other teams scoring lines, we are again forced to overuse Giroux and Couturier on defensive zone faceoffs because Rinaldo's line cannot be trusted to get off the ice without conceding a goal.

 

[DrinkFightFlyers]

You're reading the stats wrong, if that's what you got out of it. Only Adam Hall and VandeVelde have a worse CF% away from Rinaldo amongst the forwards. MacDonald is the only one amongst the defensemen.

Certainly possible that I am reading these wrong, as I am not by any means a stats expert. If I am looking at them again though in a different way (maybe still not the right way), it still looks to me that the biggest changes are from guys that barely played with Rinaldo, with the exception of Michael Raffl who appears to have a relatively drastic change.

Rinaldo is not a good hockey player and the team collectively plays better when he's not on the ice.

Rinaldo is good at what he does. He's not there to create scoring chances or be a defensive force. He is there to stir the pot. Also, and again I am by no means a stats guy so this could be way off base, but isn't there going to be someone on every team with whom players play worse? Rinaldo may be that guy for the Flyers, wouldn't the Kings and other powerhouse teams also have a player with whom the rest of the players play worse with?

Again, that is just an uneducated guess, so I very well could be wrong.

I get it; you like him. The stats don't support why you should, though.

What stats show how well he gets under the skin of other players? Which stat shows how many times he gets the crowd out of a funk?

 

[flyershockey]

The risk is that Rinaldo is once again a possession anchor on the 4th line, and instead of being able to put out a defensively sound 4th line against other teams scoring lines, we are again forced to overuse Giroux and Couturier on defensive zone faceoffs because Rinaldo's line cannot be trusted to get off the ice without conceding a goal.

But, but... he's only on the ice for 8 minutes a game! Having a fourth line that isn't a complete liability might seem minor for some around here, but it has a large impact on the rest of the roster and how it's used. Your fourth line should be a defensively responsible group that can provide energy while making life difficult on the other team's secondary scorers. Maybe the occasional goal here and there shouldn't be too much to ask for either. But we have Rinaldo... who hits.