Speculation: Yzerman's strategy

[WingedWheel1987]

Yes. I can rationally tell you why. He's tracking ahead of Hedman at the same age and doing so on an incomplete and subpar Red Wings roster. If that's not enough, there's literally nothing this kid could do to satiate your needs.

Nothing Brendan Smith, Mantha, or Bertuzzi did was anywhere near as impressive as what Seider has done in his first two seasons and the fact you bring those guys up in the same conversation is making me wonder how closely you're watching these last 2 years.

Hedman averaged 1:20 on powerplay during his rookie season.

Seider averaged almost 3:00 per game during his rookie season.

Tampa could afford to play it safe with Hedman since their forwards were really good with Stamkos and MSL.

Their second year PP minutes?

Hedman averaged 1:39 per game.

Seider averaged 3:06 per game.

For reference, the defenseman with the highest average time on ice during the power play during the 2021-2022 season was Washington Capitals defenseman John Carlson at 3:58.

Average time on ice for first two seasons for each player.

Seider year 1: 23:02
Seider year 2: 23:01

Hedman year 1: 20:51
Hedman year 2: 21:01

Pretty disingenuous if you ask me to say it's an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes the Wings are garbage, so Seider was forced to play those minutes.

Hedman was not forced to play those minutes. I am just speculating, but something tells me Hedman would have been a lot more productive during his first two seasons if he was given the same amount of ice time and PP time as Seider. Good on Seider for taking advantage of those extra minutes but thinking that Seider has the potential to be on the same level as Hedman is obscenely optimistic.


I think Moritz Seider is a great pick and can be a very good player. I just don't think he is going to end up being an elite franchise defenseman. Am I really being so unreasonable?

 

[Perfect Human]

How do any of the posts made in the last 12 hours relate to answering the question: “What is Yzerman’s strategy?”

Lots of armchair GMs with little awareness or what the Wings’ rebuild and current system looks like. Not sure if some of these posters actually are Wings fans or just turds looking to get flushed.

Stat cherry picking is dumb and watching games coupled with long term perspective is key in this discussion.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You will have to forgive my skepticism, but I have seen too many people pencil in players as elite talent based on hype. Member Brendan Smith, member Anthony Mantha, member Bertuzzi?

The odds are against Seider. I hope he proves me wrong, but can you rationally argue why I should say, "Seider is going to be the cornerstone of the defense going forward and make everyone around him better?"

Hedman averaged 1:20 on powerplay during his rookie season.

Seider averaged almost 3:00 per game during his rookie season.

Tampa could afford to play it safe with Hedman since their forwards were really good with Stamkos and MSL.

Their second year PP minutes?

Hedman averaged 1:39 per game.

Seider averaged 3:06 per game.

Average time on ice for first two seasons for each player.

Seider year 1: 23:02
Seider year 2: 23:01

Hedman year 1: 20:51
Hedman year 2: 21:01

Pretty disingenuous if you ask me to say it's an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes the Wings are garbage, so Seider was forced to play those minutes.

Hedman was not forced to play those minutes. I am just speculating, but something tells me Hedman would have been a lot more productive during his first two seasons if he was given the same amount of ice time and PP time as Seider. Good on Seider for taking advantage of those extra minutes but thinking that Seider has the potential to be on the same level as Hedman is obscenely optimistic.


I think Moritz Seider is a great pick and can be a very good player. I just don't think he is going to end up being an elite franchise defenseman. Am I really being so unreasonable?

Mo played those minutes because everyone else on the roster was dogshit.

It’s also more than a little bit disingenuous to say “oh he would have been way more productive if he got those minutes too, when Seider has 83 points in 146 games, playing around 3,300 minutes total with roughly 450 of those minutes being PP time. Whereas Hedman through his first four years before he completely busted out had 89 points in 258 games playing over 5,000 minutes with his total of PP time during that time period equaling Seider’s two year total.

So basically, Seider year one and two isn’t barely beating Hedman in production on a far worse team… he’s blowing him out of the water.

This isn’t to say that Seider > Hedman, but you’re a loon if you’re going to try to diminish what the hell Mortiz has done on this Wings roster. He’s the second best player coming out of the 2019 draft. I’d still put Hughes above him

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Hedman was on a good team and wasn't asked to do what Seider was forced to do. Being on a good team when you are a rookie isn't conducive to putting up a ton of points since the team has no reason to rush a player's development. (I think Wings fans should know this very well) Tampa knew Hedman was NHL ready but didn't think it would serve him best to play more minutes in the AHL or some other random European league. They wanted him to gain NHL experience even if he played a little less and didn't light up the stat sheet.

Seider is on a bad team and gets every opportunity to put up points. That's great that he won the Calder. It was well deserved.

Even mediocre players (see Justin Abdelkader) can put up decent point totals when put in very advantageous circumstances. No, I am not saying Seider is mediocre. Let me say this again. I think Seider can end up being a very good player.

I am simply saying that both players were in very different positions and their responsibilities were dictated by those positions.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Hedman was on a good team and wasn't asked to do what Seider was forced to do. Being on a good team when you are a rookie isn't conducive to putting up a ton of points since the team has no reason to rush a player's development. (I think Wings fans should know this very well) Tampa knew Hedman was NHL ready but didn't think it would serve him best to play more minutes in the AHL or some other random European league. They wanted him to gain NHL experience even if he played a little less and didn't light up the stat sheet.

Seider is on a bad team and gets every opportunity to put up points. That's great that he won the Calder. It was well deserved.

Even mediocre players (see Justin Abdelkader) can put up decent point totals when put in very advantageous circumstances. No, I am not saying Seider is mediocre. Let me say this again. I think Seider can end up being a very good player.

I am simply saying that both players were in very different positions and their responsibilities were dictated by those positions.

The thing was... Seider was a "WHOA" off the board pick in 2019 because he wasn't clocked as having NHL level offensive chops. Him producing like this is a boon to what they thought he was and not what was initially expected. Him scoring 50 points as a rookie was outstanding, but he wasn't f***ing Justin Abdelkader scoring 20 goals by being Pavel Datsyuk's HORSE prop.

Also... Hedman played 21 minuites a night as a rookie, 74 games. That's not slow-playing a 19 year old. He played 258 games and it took four years to bust out into the two-way force that he became. Why exactly are you so damn certain of Moritz Seider's future based off of 146 games in which he was more productive with less support?

 

[Shaman464]

I'm just listening to the GM himself struggle to articulate his plan.
Listen to him describe the challenge of rebuilding and tell me you know what the Yzerplan is.

The Yzerplan is dead obvious. Its building through the draft and trying to find UFAs to fill major roster holes. What we don't own is what the Illitch plan is. I strongly suspect that Illitch wants the team to be at the intersection of as cheap as possible while still barely making it into the playoffs to maximize profits. And if that is the case Yzerman has a hard tightrope to navigate.

As for Seider v Hedman. I think Seider isn't going to have quite as good a career as Hedman (stats/peak/actual ability), but I think Seider could end up with more Norris trophies because Seider plays a style that many voting members will love.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Wait, now we're arguing about how good Seider is?

What the hell is happening here?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

BB88 is 68?!

He claimed to be.

Though the username and way he writes seems to indicate much younger.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Wait, now we're arguing about how good Seider is?

What the hell is happening here?

Frankly, we should probably just nuke this topic.

Yzerman has been clear with his strategy from day one and this was pretty much brigaded by some people who just “don’t trust that he knows what he’s doing”

You could talk about how good Seider is as part of the discussion tho, because if he’s a Hedman-Esque top pairing, that changes the calculus. If he’s simply a more German Kronwall where he’s a top pair guy, but not elite, that changes things. And if you think his play is smoke and mirrors and he’s simply capitalizing on playing in all situations to score a bunch, that’s a third path.

Basically, is he a cornerstone, a plus player who supports the cornerstone or is he miscast as that and a better second pair guy.

Yzerman sees him as a cornerstone to build upon and it informs his strategy.

 

[SantosHalper]

No, you're not understanding. Trading Larkin and tanking for Bedard is a much better strategy than drafting 12th.

Having Bedard and Wright potentially down the middle sets your team up for a 10+ year run ala New Jersey. We know what we're going to get with Larkin and Kasper and it doesn't involve contention.

Trading Larkin who's a proven 1B center in the NHL and Kasper, who's ceiling is a 1B center in the NHL for Shane Wright who's ceiling is also a 1B center is nothing but pure lunacy. Trade value for Detroit is negative and there is not a single GM in the world who would do that in Detroit's POV but everyone would do that in Seattle's POV. Larkin-Beniers-Kasper would be insane center core for years.

Detroit had one the worst season's in the history of the NHL and we didn't even come close winning the 1st overall pick. There's no guarantees in draft lottery, so that trade would leave Detroit one center short and Detroit's situation would not change at all.

Now with the 12th pick Detroit could get Oliver Moore, another center prospect who's ceiling is 1B. So Detroit could have three 1B center's, if everything pans out or it could also be 1B-2A-2B or 1B-2B-2B. Doesn't really matter, Detroit's center depth would be insane.

In fantasy world "superstars" wins championship by themselves but in reality depth wins championship, and Detroit is on it's way to have one hell of a deep team.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You will have to forgive my skepticism, but I have seen too many people pencil in players as elite talent based on hype. Member Brendan Smith, member Anthony Mantha, member Bertuzzi?

The odds are against Seider. I hope he proves me wrong, but can you rationally argue why I should say, "Seider is going to be the cornerstone of the defense going forward and make everyone around him better?"

Remember how none of those guys got a single vote for the Calder? Seider isn’t hype. He’s played 146 NHL games and done so at a high level.

The odds are against any player becoming elite. But my man, Seider is past the “flash in the pan” status here. He’s not Nick Lidstrom in that he can make any pairing work because of his greatness… but if you give Seider a partner that he has any chemistry with, he’s been very very good

 

[Oddbob]

And yet somehow the NHL managed to play every season from 2020-2022. Albeit shortened seasons. Truly great players don't need a couple of years in the AHL or playing for their national team before they enter the NHL. Seider could end up being a very good player. I just don't think he is going to be a game changer.

Let's not pretend pro sports organizations would let the pandemic stop them from playing someone if they thought his talent level was high enough. The NHL isn't a charity. It's a business and the almighty dollar is their first and foremost priority. They can talk about caring about the other stuff more, but talk is cheap.

He is already both of these. What an asinine take on Seider!

Won the Calder trophy and carried the defense to the 31st ranked team in goals allowed. Only Montreal was worse. Now obviously using goals allowed isn't completely fair, but isn't a game changer by definition supposed to change the game?

The last season excluding the 58 game (you can include that if you want as well, but it doesn't help) season before Seider arrived had the Wings dead last in the league in GAA.

This roster is really bad. Having merely good or very good players isn't gonna cut it. If you want to see real improvement, you are going to have to find someone comparable to prime Ovy/Crosby or McDavid playing blind folded.

Seider is viewed extremely highly outside Detroit. Not sure who you are watching and maybe you aren't!

 

[Oddbob]

Hedman was on a good team and wasn't asked to do what Seider was forced to do. Being on a good team when you are a rookie isn't conducive to putting up a ton of points since the team has no reason to rush a player's development. (I think Wings fans should know this very well) Tampa knew Hedman was NHL ready but didn't think it would serve him best to play more minutes in the AHL or some other random European league. They wanted him to gain NHL experience even if he played a little less and didn't light up the stat sheet.

Seider is on a bad team and gets every opportunity to put up points. That's great that he won the Calder. It was well deserved.

Even mediocre players (see Justin Abdelkader) can put up decent point totals when put in very advantageous circumstances. No, I am not saying Seider is mediocre. Let me say this again. I think Seider can end up being a very good player.

I am simply saying that both players were in very different positions and their responsibilities were dictated by those positions.

Hedman was not as good as Seider is at the same age. You are embarrassing yourself making it like Seider is just an ok player. Even TB fans, admit that Hedman was not Norris level Hedman until season 4 or 5 of his career.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

It's a good thing that internet hockey forums weren't a thing in the early to mid 90s (or maybe they were, im just glad I was unaware of their existence) I can't imagine having to listen to the legions of tank-opaths after we got embarrassed by Chicago in 92, foaming at the mouth to burn the team to the ground so we can draft the next generational talent, (checks notes) Alexandre Daigle. "We'll never win anything without a first overall pick" "Yzerman's not an elite 1c" "It took Lidstrom 3 years to make the NHL, he's plateaued"

 

[jkutswings]

It's a good thing that internet hockey forums weren't a thing in the early to mid 90s (or maybe they were, im just glad I was unaware of their existence) I can't imagine having to listen to the legions of tank-opaths after we got embarrassed by Chicago in 92, foaming at the mouth to burn the team to the ground so we can draft the next generational talent, (checks notes) Alexandre Daigle. "We'll never win anything without a first overall pick" "Yzerman's not an elite 1c" "It took Lidstrom 3 years to make the NHL, he's plateaued"

Yeah. Part of it is information fatigue - you didn't have instant access to all these metrics to point out strengths and weaknesses according to different means of evaluation.

But I completely agree with your point. I mean, technically Detroit didn't win anything in the 90's until Yzerman STOPPED playing like the 1C many fans are now clamoring for, and prioritized a more smothering game over piling up points.

 

[dalem177]

Yeah. Part of it is information fatigue - you didn't have instant access to all these metrics to point out strengths and weaknesses according to different means of evaluation.

But I completely agree with your point. I mean, technically Detroit didn't win anything in the 90's until Yzerman STOPPED playing like the 1C many fans are now clamoring for, and prioritized a more smothering game over piling up points.

One of the most difficult conversations Scotty Bowman had in his magnificent coaching career was sitting down to tell Steve Yzerman he had to change his game.

Article content​

Yzerman was a star unlike few before him: In the years prior to Bowman coaching the Detroit Red Wings, he had scored 65 goals, 62, 58, 51 and 50. Only Mario Lemieux had more goals in that time period. Only Wayne Gretzky and Lemieux had more points.

“I said to him: ‘You’ve got to play a lot differently if this team is going to win,’ ” said Bowman, describing the extreme challenge in Ken Dryden’s book Scotty: A Hockey Life Like No Other.

SIMMONS SAYS: Scotty Bowman changed Steve Yzerman into a winner. Can the Leafs do the same with Auston Matthews?

One of the most difficult conversations Scotty Bowman had in his magnificent coaching career was sitting down to tell Steve Yzerman he had to change his game.

torontosun.com

Or, folks could ignore Scotty concerning being a superstar and being captain of a winning team. You know, either way is probably good.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Seider is on a bad team and gets every opportunity to put up points.

You can't be serious. You can't be.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You can't be serious. You can't be.

He is. He was also serious saying "Tampa could play it safe with Hedman" when Hedman in his first four years was averaging 20+ minutes a night.

 

[jkutswings]

He is. He was also serious saying "Tampa could play it safe with Hedman" when Hedman in his first four years was averaging 20+ minutes a night.

And when Seider explodes for 60 points next year, it will definitely be due to getting carried by Walman for a full season.

 

[SirloinUB]

I've been away for a few days but its good to see so much of the petulant tank discourse is continuing

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I've been away for a few days but its good to see so much of the petulant tank discourse is continuing

Only the best for you, bud!

 

[Frk It]

I've been away for a few days but its good to see so much of the petulant tank discourse is continuing

# of new ideas/narratives brought up: 0

 

[Nom Nom de Plume]

Remember how none of those guys got a single vote for the Calder? Seider isn’t hype. He’s played 146 NHL games and done so at a high level.

The odds are against any player becoming elite. But my man, Seider is past the “flash in the pan” status here. He’s not Nick Lidstrom in that he can make any pairing work because of his greatness… but if you give Seider a partner that he has any chemistry with, he’s been very very good

We don't know that yet. Who thought Lidstrom would win 7 Norrises if asked back in 1992? I think his game is looking a lot like "career first pairing d-man" and it can only improve from here. If his ceiling is like Kris Letang (very good) or something, that's still possibly 20 years of very good hockey and a huge piece in the puzzle. If his ceiling is say.. Mike Green that's still a whole bunch of goodness for

We got 99 problems Mo ain't one

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

We don't know that yet. Who thought Lidstrom would win 7 Norrises if asked back in 1992? I think his game is looking a lot like "career first pairing d-man" and it can only improve from here. If his ceiling is like Kris Letang (very good) or something, that's still possibly 20 years of very good hockey and a huge piece in the puzzle. If his ceiling is say.. Mike Green that's still a whole bunch of goodness for

We got 99 problems Mo ain't one

I’m not disagreeing. But just saying that at 21 146 games into his career, Seider can’t make chicken salad out of every chicken shit partner. That’s it.

Lidstrom made Ian White look like a capable top 4 guy… that is what elite is. Seider is more like Kronner. Legit #1D, but he’s 21, taller, stronger, and less injured

 

[norrisnick]

I’m not disagreeing. But just saying that at 21 146 games into his career, Seider can’t make chicken salad out of every chicken shit partner. That’s it.

Lidstrom made Ian White look like a capable top 4 guy… that is what elite is. Seider is more like Kronner. Legit #1D, but he’s 21, taller, stronger, and less injured

I obviously have great admiration for Nick.

His first two partners were the Norris whisperer in Brad McCrimmon (RIP) and Paul Coffey. That gives your development a kickstart.

Nick was shown the perfect partner in Brad and then was given the ultimate babysitting assignment in Coffey. But was given that babysitting job within the framework that had Konstantinov etc al on pairing 2 and 3.