Speculation: Yzerman's strategy

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Yeah reading other fans opinion on the rebuild is weird, it's like they are all annoyed we are not super pissed off. Most Sens fans are incredibly hostile as well.

Agreed. I can't imagine caring how another team's rebuild is going.

I think the only time I've posted in a thread remotely related to that for another team is to express sympathy about the inept management as someone who wasted a significant chunk of his life watching the Detroit Lions.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You keep spouting off about the Dunning Kruger effect and yet here you are perfectly displaying it. I could come up with a million sources that shows what Bert did or did not choose to do with his body and life was probably a smart decision, but every single time I do that, it gets removed and moderated, no matter the sources I provide or the studies that I link. That's fine, a little time wasted is not the end of the world. But then people sit here and pretend like those articles, sources and studies don't exist and that everyone who put the time in to learn about exactly what could and couldnt be done with that technology is merely a facebook boomer who gets their information from the national enquirer. If pot shots and slandering against Bert and others who chose differently based on their own research is allowed, then so should be the opposing viewpoint. We are past the point of "misinformation costing lives" with C19.

Back on topic, last time I checked it still takes time for prospects to develop...are you actually trying to argue that because Mo took 3 years to make the show that he's somehow not going to be a top pairing D? And that because Raymond has been in the league 2 years, he cant take another step and become a ppg player? And that we arent going to improve as we add Edvinsson, Johansson, and Kasper to this roster?

Because whatever you provide has f*** all to do with hockey and the Red Wings and it was clearly shared way back at the start of this that the hockey’s future board isn’t the place to share any of your sources about this, whether we agree or disagree. It’s hockey, not politics.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I’m going through and deleting any of it that I see. Good or bad. I wasn’t a mod until just recently.

I’m drawing the line that we don’t bring it up anymore in relation to hockey… because it’s not affecting a damn thing with the Wings anymore because Bertuzzi is gone.

A big part of why “why allow the shaming?” It’s because it can go from zero to 100 from an offhand remark (i.e. glad we traded Bertuzzi before he revealed himself to be a lunatic) and in the interest of not completing shutting down all discussion of anything, a lot of times the mods will use discretion and allow it to proceed, hoping that all parties will catch themselves. Because if everything is deleted immediately, that’s too much censorship.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Uh last I checked; Moritz Seider didn't play his first NHL game until three years after he was drafted.

The rebuild ends when the team starts to make the playoffs on a regular basis. I was just giving an example of how a rebuild looks when it goes right. 4-5 years of assembling the talent is how long a rebuild should take. You need to have the foundation in place within 4-5 years at the very latest.

There is absolutely no chance the Wings make the playoffs next year. If the Wings draft 10th overall, I don't expect to see that player on the Wings roster immediately. Otherwise, he wouldn't be going 10th overall. There are obvious exceptions that can arise from incompetent management putting him in the NHL too soon, or the scouts missed something about him or off the ice concerns scared teams away.

Seider played his first game 2 years after being drafted. 1 year in the AHL, 1 year in the SHL, then played his first NHL game October 14th, 2021. 2 years and 116 days after the 2019 draft. He probably could've skipped the season in the SHL and played in his D+2, but you know, global pandemic.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Last I checked… there was a global pandemic that occurred in the gap between Seider being drafted that led to leagues shutting down for extended periods of time and made travel around the globe way less convenient and possible.

And yet somehow the NHL managed to play every season from 2020-2022. Albeit shortened seasons. Truly great players don't need a couple of years in the AHL or playing for their national team before they enter the NHL. Seider could end up being a very good player. I just don't think he is going to be a game changer.

Let's not pretend pro sports organizations would let the pandemic stop them from playing someone if they thought his talent level was high enough. The NHL isn't a charity. It's a business and the almighty dollar is their first and foremost priority. They can talk about caring about the other stuff more, but talk is cheap.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

And yet somehow the NHL managed to play every season from 2020-2022. Albeit shortened seasons. Truly great players don't need a couple of years in the AHL or playing for their national team before they enter the NHL. Seider could end up being a very good player. I just don't think he is going to be a game changer.

He's already a very good player and a game changer for us in my opinion.

 

[jfrank21]

Um, last time I checked it still takes time for prospects to develop...are you actually trying to argue that because Mo took 2 years to make the show that he's somehow not going to be a top pairing D? And that because Raymond has been in the league 2 years, he cant take another step and become a ppg player? And that we arent going to improve as we add Edvinsson, Johansson, and Kasper to this roster?

I'm sorry that Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk never turned into world class players because they didnt make the show a year after being drafted. Boy, I'm sure glad you were able to spot their lack of ability while they played overseas!

 

[norrisnick]

He's already a very good player and a game changer for us in my opinion.

It wouldn't be much of a stretch to already consider him our most important player.

 

[LeighDx59]

Yeah reading other fans opinion on the rebuild is weird, it's like they are all annoyed we are not super pissed off. Most Sens fans are incredibly hostile as well.

Its amazing what two wins in February will do to a fanbase.

To me, and I mentioned this on the main board thread, Yzerman is being patient. Not every single pick he makes is going to come right into the NHL and be the best player. They have to develop, which is what the majority of his picks are doing. Edvinssson will be here next season, Kasper could make the jump and surprise everyone. The later picks were hoping will give us depth should start coming over and at minimum be in Grand Rapids. Cossa is playing his best hockey after a shaky start. Patience is key, we were battling for a Playoff spot into March which is what anyone wouldve loved at the start of the season, next season we gotta take the next step.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

He's already a very good player and a game changer for us in my opinion.

Well, I suppose you could make that argument since the bar is set so low. However, even if he ends up meeting 100% of his potential (which is very unlikely), I still don't think Larkin, Raymond and Seider amounts to more than a bubble team on a good day. You can give me a list of prospects with no NHL experience and say that's my proof, it's just a very optimistic outlook that doesn't really make sense when you look at the statistics of prospects that end up being Pavel Datsyuk or Henrik Zetterberg when they were expected to be merely good players.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And yet somehow the NHL managed to play every season from 2020-2022. Albeit shortened seasons. Truly great players don't need a couple of years in the AHL or playing for their national team before they enter the NHL. Seider could end up being a very good player. I just don't think he is going to be a game changer.

Let's not pretend pro sports organizations would let the pandemic stop them from playing someone if they thought his talent level was high enough. The NHL isn't a charity. It's a business and the almighty dollar is their first and foremost priority. They can talk about caring about the other stuff more, but talk is cheap.

How the pandemic helped prepare Moritz Seider for the NHL – DW – 11/10/2021

Moritz Seider wouldn't have wound up playing in Sweden last season, had it not been for the coronavirus pandemic. But it proved to be the perfect place to prepare him for taking the next step in his hockey career.

amp.dw.com

Mo Seider spent a year in the AHL because he was coming from Europe and the Wings wanted him to adjust to the North American ice and avoid having him be on literally the worst f***in roster in the NHL in the last decade.

He would have been challenging to be in Detroit in fall 2020 if no pandemic.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well, I suppose you could make that argument since the bar is set so low. However, even if he ends up meeting 100% of his potential (which is very unlikely), I still don't think Larkin, Raymond and Seider amounts to more than a bubble team on a good day. You can give me a list of prospects with no NHL experience and say that's my proof, it's just a very optimistic outlook that doesn't really make sense when you look at the statistics of prospects that end up being Pavel Datsyuk or Henrik Zetterberg when they were expected to be merely good players.

He literally won the Calder trophy going away as the best rookie in the league… while having a brain dead Nick Leddy, a physically near-dead Danny DeKeyser, and a talentless assortment of chuckle f***s around him.

He quite literally carried an abysmal D core.

 

[Bench]

It wouldn't be much of a stretch to already consider him our most important player.

That's usually the case for the player leading your roster in ice time by a good margin. Oh, and he's not even 22-years-old.

Victor Hedman from age 20 to 22:

105 GP
9 goals
34 assists
43 points (0.41 PPG)
-8 plus/minus
22:55 minutes per game

Hedman would "breakout" in his 5th NHL season when he was 22-23 years of age.

Seider age 20 to 22:

147 GP
11 goals
72 assists
83 points (0.56 ppg)
- 19 plus/minus
23:02 minutes per game

I dunno, things look pretty damn good for the kid so far.

 

[norrisnick]

How the pandemic helped prepare Moritz Seider for the NHL – DW – 11/10/2021

Moritz Seider wouldn't have wound up playing in Sweden last season, had it not been for the coronavirus pandemic. But it proved to be the perfect place to prepare him for taking the next step in his hockey career.

amp.dw.com

Mo Seider spent a year in the AHL because he was coming from Europe and the Wings wanted him to adjust to the North American ice and avoid having him be on literally the worst f***in roster in the NHL in the last decade.

He would have been challenging to be in Detroit in fall 2020 if no pandemic.

Citing sources... SMH...

Mo is bad because he didn't make the jump immediately. And because he didn't make the jump immediately he can't ever be good. That's just common bro-sense

 

[WingedWheel1987]

He literally won the Calder trophy going away as the best rookie in the league… while having a brain dead Nick Leddy, a physically near-dead Danny DeKeyser, and a talentless assortment of chuckle f***s around him.

He quite literally carried an abysmal D core.

Won the Calder trophy and carried the defense to the 31st ranked team in goals allowed. Only Montreal was worse. Now obviously using goals allowed isn't completely fair, but isn't a game changer by definition supposed to change the game?

The last season excluding the 58 game (you can include that if you want as well, but it doesn't help) season before Seider arrived had the Wings dead last in the league in GAA.

This roster is really bad. Having merely good or very good players isn't gonna cut it. If you want to see real improvement, you are going to have to find someone comparable to prime Ovy/Crosby or McDavid playing blind folded.

 

[Bench]

Won the Calder trophy and carried the defense to the 31st ranked team in goals allowed. Only Montreal was worse. Now obviously using goals allowed isn't completely fair, but isn't a game changer by definition supposed to change the game?

And McDavid is undeniably the biggest game changer I've seen in 20+ years but Edmonton can't win shit and are fighting for a wildcard spot. He's one dude, my dude.

Give him a supporting cast and watch the goals against continue to fall. The team has already improved from 3.8 goals against last year (31st) to 3.3 goals against this year (19th).

The defense has measurably improved. The offense remains... a work in progress.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Citing sources... SMH...

Mo is bad because he didn't make the jump immediately. And because he didn't make the jump immediately he can't ever be good. That's just common bro-sense

Please point to where I said Seider will never be good or can never be good? I literally said Seider could end up being a very good player.

 

[PullHard]

Dude. There is a 68 year-old Bruins fan who is spending a lot of time in that thread twisting things any way possible to make the Wings rebuild look like a total failure. I seriously thought it was some kid. I hope he's lying about his age?

BB88 is 68?!

 

[Bench]

I literally said Seider could end up being a very good player.

This is the most lukewarm take for a Red Wings fan in the history of this forum. I'm impressed, actually.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

And McDavid is undeniably the biggest game changer I've seen in 20+ years but Edmonton can't win shit and are fighting for a wildcard spot. He's one dude, my dude.

Give him a supporting cast and watch the goals against continue to fall. The team has already improved from 3.8 goals against last year (31st) to 3.3 goals against this year (19th).

The defense has measurably improved. The offense remains... a work in progress.

Yes, the Oilers have a true game changer and its still hard for them. THey did make the WCF last year, but one year doesn't mean much. They need to show consistency.

Meanwhile the Wings don't have McDavid and are in even worse shape and there isn't going to be a McDavid walking through the LCA locker room anytime soon.

 

[Bench]

Meanwhile the Wings don't have McDavid and are in even worse shape and there isn't going to be a McDavid walking through the LCA locker room anytime soon.

OK but that's a completely different discussion than if someone is a game changer. I get it, you're in the "all or nothing" camp but damn dude just recognize Seider is tracking at minimum on par with Hedman at the same age so maybe there's a little room for hope in your soul, OK?

You used team sum results as evidence of "game changing" status and I can point out a hundred NHL examples of elite players on garbage teams because one guy can't carry an NHL roster even if he's the best in the last few decades.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

This is the most lukewarm take for a Red Wings fan in the history of this forum. I'm impressed, actually.

You will have to forgive my skepticism, but I have seen too many people pencil in players as elite talent based on hype. Member Brendan Smith, member Anthony Mantha, member Bertuzzi?

The odds are against Seider. I hope he proves me wrong, but can you rationally argue why I should say, "Seider is going to be the cornerstone of the defense going forward and make everyone around him better?"

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Yes, the Oilers have a true game changer and its still hard for them. THey did make the WCF last year, but one year doesn't mean much. They need to show consistency.

Meanwhile the Wings don't have McDavid and are in even worse shape and there isn't going to be a McDavid walking through the LCA locker room anytime soon.

What's even your point? Seriously, you just keep talking trash and not reaching anything close to a logical conclusion. Are you drunk?

 

[Bench]

I hope he proves me wrong, but can you rationally argue why I should say, "Seider is going to be the cornerstone of the defense going forward and make everyone around him better?"

Yes. I can rationally tell you why. He's tracking ahead of Hedman at the same age and doing so on an incomplete and subpar Red Wings roster. If that's not enough, there's literally nothing this kid could do to satiate your needs.

Nothing Brendan Smith, Mantha, or Bertuzzi did was anywhere near as impressive as what Seider has done in his first two seasons and the fact you bring those guys up in the same conversation is making me wonder how closely you're watching these last 2 years.

 

[jkutswings]

Yes. I can rationally tell you why. He's tracking ahead of Hedman at the same age and doing so on an incomplete and subpar Red Wings roster. If that's not enough, there's literally nothing this kid could do to satiate your needs.

Nothing Brendan Smith, Mantha, or Bertuzzi did was anywhere near as impressive as what Seider has done in his first two seasons and the fact you bring those guys up in the same conversation is making me wonder how closely you're watching these last 2 years.

Seider wasn't drafted first overall. He could win the Art Ross and the Conn Smythe and it wouldn't matter.