OT: Yzerman's roster construction

[SantosHalper]

Newsflash!

UFA players cost money.

Newsflash!

Every hockey team has players, whom been acquired to play in a certain role. PK forwards, PK d-men, physical D-man, shutdown line players etc.

Newsflash!

Yzerman likes to marinate prospects in AHL first, he's been doing that ever since he became GM in 2010. I don't know how that can still be a surprise to people.

 

[Pavels Dog]

This team won't go anywhere even if it makes the playoffs.

Literally what were you expecting. This team making the 2nd round this season would have been one of the most surprising runs in NHL history.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

When they are past their prime by at least 2-3 years:
Olli Maatta, Ben Chiarot, Jeff Petry, Justin Holl, Andrew Copp. Also jsut other middling players in Ghost and Walman.

Overall, the team a lack of top end talent (especially on defense) and a reluctance to allow our top picks to showcase their talent.

What is prime exactly? It very much sounds to me that you do not want anyone on the roster who is over 30. That would almost make it impossible to sign any UFA players.

Apart from Edvinsson and maybe Wallinder (who has only one reasonably solid season of professional hockey to his name) I am not seeing these "top picks we refuse to showcase." Are you referring to Berggren or sending Danielson back for his D+1? Kasper clearly does not belong on this roster at the moment and I certainly don't trust Cossa or ASP at this point with NHL minutes.

 

[RedHawkDown]

What is prime exactly? It very much sounds to me that you do not want anyone on the roster who is over 30. That would almost make it impossible to sign any UFA players.

Apart from Edvinsson and maybe Wallinder (who has only one reasonably solid season of professional hockey to his name) I am not seeing these "top picks we refuse to showcase." Are you referring to Berggren or sending Danielson back for his D+1? Kasper clearly does not belong on this roster at the moment and I certainly don't trust Cossa or ASP at this point with NHL minutes.

It’s fine to sign a few of these kinds of players. It’s not fine to sign 5+ of them and then bury our future core in the minors. Edvinsson absolutely should be up, and yes Berggren should have been up since the start of the year. Those 2 aren’t irrelevant.

 

[19 for president]

Ok, what else besides ownership. I don't think that ownership is what is preventing these guys from showing up on time. We have our own plane and I am guessing that paychecks aren't bouncing.

The thing is that we have vastly different rosters too. I mean if you look at this roster vs Blash's last year there are only a few players remaining. Larkin, Ray, Seider, Fabbri, Ras, and Veleno are the only guys left.

Maybe you can call out Larkin a bit on a leadership level, but the rest are they young guys. Something that is carrying over season to season is an organizational issue and to me that is a coaching/ management issue. If there are bad apples or if the right guy isn't the captain then that is something they need to address.

Don't get me wrong I definitely think there is player culpability there but if you have 75% roster turnover in 3 seasons and have the exact same issue, then there is a bigger overall issue that is wrong.

 

[19 for president]

Sample size of one? Every goalie has a bad game. He's still on a better trajectory than Cossa.

What's funny is that Lindgren is doing better than Husso, Stevie grabbed the wrong goalie from the Blues as well. Caps will probably want to offload Kuemper, but he's not much of an upgrade.

The other issue that hasn't been mentioned is that this team is 10 ply. Kostin's out, so Chiarot and Seider are gonna be the only 2 players throwing checks this season. This team won't go anywhere even if it makes the playoffs.

This is something I could see being an issue go forward. The biggest difference between the pre/post Stevie TB team was grit and physicality. Once they added those grittier team members they took off and won cups. Now maybe that was Stevie's game plan if he had stayed, but if not I could see lack of grit being an issue when we do eventually compete.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

It’s fine to sign a few of these kinds of players. It’s not fine to sign 5+ of them and then bury our future core in the minors. Edvinsson absolutely should be up, and yes Berggren should have been up since the start of the year. Those 2 aren’t irrelevant.

So you are on the record of us burying exactly two players at present in GR. I am not sure that qualifies as a systemic issue, but to each their own. Edvinsson absolutely belongs up at this point. Berggren I could take or leave. I am more bearish on him than most and he certainly isn't part of our future "core." He is at best a middle six forward.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

The thing is that we have vastly different rosters too. I mean if you look at this roster vs Blash's last year there are only a few players remaining. Larkin, Ray, Seider, Fabbri, Ras, and Veleno are the only guys left.

Maybe you can call out Larkin a bit on a leadership level, but the rest are they young guys. Something that is carrying over season to season is an organizational issue and to me that is a coaching/ management issue. If there are bad apples or if the right guy isn't the captain then that is something they need to address.

Don't get me wrong I definitely think there is player culpability there but if you have 75% roster turnover in 3 seasons and have the exact same issue, then there is a bigger overall issue that is wrong.

That right there is three of our four best players. So regardless of the turnover down roster, your best players and leaders are still largely the same.

Do you work? If so, does your boss call you every night and tell you when to show up the next morning?

My problem with blaming coaching is that no one says exactly what it is the coaches should be doing differently. I can absolutely see issues with managing group energy levels (i.e. practicing when the team clearly needs a break) or changing systems to frequently or without enough installation time. Apart from that I am at a loss. If you are a multi-million dollar athlete in your mid twenties, you shouldn't need your team to tell you what to eat, when to sleep, when to arrive at the rink, how to warm up physically. You should have that routine down by now. You shouldn't need to hold the dicks of multi-million dollar athletes to get them to play from the first drop of the puck. People let players in the room skate on this issue far too much.

 

[ricky0034]

Yzerman likes to marinate prospects in AHL first, he's been doing that ever since he became GM in 2010. I don't know how that can still be a surprise to people.

the scale of it

if I have a friend who has always been a little off i'm still doing a double take if he goes on a killing spree

 

[jkutswings]

but it isn’t a young core? Larkin is 27, DBC is 26, Ray and Seider are the only newish players. There are zero rookies.

The team sucks because it’s mostly washed up vets.

In that case, it's ok to have lousy defense with older players, and things will magically get fixed when more kids come up? That seems to fly in the face of both the concept of winning culture and all the complaints about Grand Rapids as a stepping stone for development.

Even if I grant your assertion, these are habits that NO players should have, regardless of age.

 

[FMichael]

Newsflash!

UFA players cost money.

Newsflash!

Every hockey team has players, whom been acquired to play in a certain role. PK forwards, PK d-men, physical D-man, shutdown line players etc.

Newsflash!

Yzerman likes to marinate prospects in AHL first, he's been doing that ever since he became GM in 2010. I don't know how that can still be a surprise to people.

Indeed - and by all accounts this current roster has improved over the past handful of seasons...If there's any concern - maybe Ed should be in Detroit and not GR...I don't believe Yzerman is holding back the next Crosby, or Ovechkin in GR when it comes to the forward group.

 

[RedHawkDown]

In that case, it's ok to have lousy defense with older players, and things will magically get fixed when more kids come up? That seems to fly in the face of both the concept of winning culture and all the complaints about Grand Rapids as a stepping stone for development.

Even if I grant your assertion, these are habits that NO players should have, regardless of age.

No, I don't think it's OK whatsoever. It's not that they're old players. It's that they're old players that suck, real bad. You keep saying this stuff about habits - if a guy is a shit player, the coach can't make him fix his shittiness. We have one #1 Dman in Seider, one #4 Dman in Walman, and then 5 #5/6 dmen. That's why everyone is out of position all the time. Our D sucked earlier in the season too, we just outscored it a lot and got lucky with shooting and save percentage (2nd highest PDO in the league before this losing streak).

If we had 1-2 old players that suck real bad, and the rest of the D consisted of players that will actually be in our core moving forward, losing would be easier to stomach, because at least those guys are learning something and getting experience.

Now, we suck, and the guys who suck will not be around in 2 years. But we don't suck hard enough to get a top 5 pick. So we suck without any benefit derived from sucking.

People are going to ask what I'd do/ would have done. I think signing Kane was a good move. Compher is fine. I wouldn't have signed Copp last year. I would not have signed Holl or traded for Petry. Maatta and Chiarot are easier to stomach when there's 2 of them and not 5. Ghost is OK, I could go either way on him. I would have given Mazur a shot on the 3rd line, because he is the kind of complimentary player that does better with skilled players ala Bertuzzi.

I won't even bother with trades because who knows if what I propose would be possible in real life, but I think we'd be able to trade Berggren + for Hanifin if he had a chance to keep putting up points on the top line. Let's say through 20 games Berggren has 13-15 pts? I think Calgary would take Berg + Wallinder + 2025 1st for Hanifin in that case.

So:
Raymond-Larkin-Berggren
Kane-Compher-DeBrincat
Fabbri-Veleno-Mazur
Rasmussen-Fischer-Perron
Sprong

Walman-Seider
Edvinsson-Chiarot
Maatta-Ghost

And you have my potential trade on top of that. I don't think the above roster loses many more games than we have now. The only difference is that our young players get a chance to mix into the lineup and maybe they fly (e.g. the way Seider did). Edvinsson would not be worse than Petry in any galaxy. Berggren is not going to be any more useless than Copp. Mazur isn't going to produce any less offense than Fischer or Czarnik.

The whole idea of "fighting for a spot" only works if playing better is actually rewarded. The Wings have not done that. Berggren has been better than 70% of the forwards in each of his callups and is continually sent down. Copp shits the bed every time he's in the offensive zone and continues to get 16+ minutes per game. There is no accountability with this team and it's been this way since before Lalonde as well.

 

[Detroit Knights]

LA had prime Kopitar and a way better defensive core. We aren’t close to that right now.

well i never said we were there. I am just using LA as an example. We are obviously not in the same realm as them right now.

We will have raymond and dbc in their primes, larkin ending his prime, and hopefully a couple of centers in kasper and danielson starting to do some good things in the league 2-3 years from now.

 

[jkutswings]

No, I don't think it's OK whatsoever. It's not that they're old players. It's that they're old players that suck, real bad. You keep saying this stuff about habits - if a guy is a shit player, the coach can't make him fix his shittiness. We have one #1 Dman in Seider, one #4 Dman in Walman, and then 5 #5/6 dmen. That's why everyone is out of position all the time. Our D sucked earlier in the season too, we just outscored it a lot and got lucky with shooting and save percentage (2nd highest PDO in the league before this losing streak).

If we had 1-2 old players that suck real bad, and the rest of the D consisted of players that will actually be in our core moving forward, losing would be easier to stomach, because at least those guys are learning something and getting experience.

Now, we suck, and the guys who suck will not be around in 2 years. But we don't suck hard enough to get a top 5 pick. So we suck without any benefit derived from sucking.

People are going to ask what I'd do/ would have done. I think signing Kane was a good move. Compher is fine. I wouldn't have signed Copp last year. I would not have signed Holl or traded for Petry. Maatta and Chiarot are easier to stomach when there's 2 of them and not 5. Ghost is OK, I could go either way on him. I would have given Mazur a shot on the 3rd line, because he is the kind of complimentary player that does better with skilled players ala Bertuzzi.

I won't even bother with trades because who knows if what I propose would be possible in real life, but I think we'd be able to trade Berggren + for Hanifin if he had a chance to keep putting up points on the top line. Let's say through 20 games Berggren has 13-15 pts? I think Calgary would take Berg + Wallinder + 2025 1st for Hanifin in that case.

So:
Raymond-Larkin-Berggren
Kane-Compher-DeBrincat
Fabbri-Veleno-Mazur
Rasmussen-Fischer-Perron
Sprong

Walman-Seider
Edvinsson-Chiarot
Maatta-Ghost

And you have my potential trade on top of that. I don't think the above roster loses many more games than we have now. The only difference is that our young players get a chance to mix into the lineup and maybe they fly (e.g. the way Seider did). Edvinsson would not be worse than Petry in any galaxy. Berggren is not going to be any more useless than Copp. Mazur isn't going to produce any less offense than Fischer or Czarnik.

The whole idea of "fighting for a spot" only works if playing better is actually rewarded. The Wings have not done that. Berggren has been better than 70% of the forwards in each of his callups and is continually sent down. Copp shits the bed every time he's in the offensive zone and continues to get 16+ minutes per game. There is no accountability with this team and it's been this way since before Lalonde as well.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

Larkin is unquestionably our best center. But he would rather dive and whine to the refs than fight through the nonsense and make the play.

Seider is more than talented enough to be on the roster. But he's still making "lack of effort" plays.

I agree that the best players should play. But I'm saying that even our best players are sometimes dogging it out there, and they need a red ass to hold them accountable. Team defense is an endangered species this season, including with the most talented guys.

 

[Detroit Knights]

A positionally sound goalie would be pretty cool right now. One who could be a steadying presence for this defense. If only Detroit drafted a prospect like that in say, 2021, we might be in a good place right now...

Look, if yzerman, hakan and company said cossa is the guy to go with over wallstedt, i have to give us the benefit of the doubt until we see like 50-75 games playing in the nhl from both of them.

It is definitely going to be interesting in 2040 when we all look back and say damn, that pick was ___________ compared to wallstedt!

 

[Retire91]

The Russian players from the 90's were Hall of Famers defecting from under the Iron Curtain. It's not comparable to today, the Russian players today are in the same pool as other players. There is nothing unique special about their development like the 90's players who were military under orders to win gold or their family was murdered.

Quite a few of Yzerman's key players have not hit the roster yet, its premature to complain about filler signings. Yzerman did the same in TB but it wasn't noticeable because before Yzerman went to TB they had an actual team unlike what Holland left as one of the most historically terrible rosters ever assembled. You have to take normal rebuild time and multiply it by 2 or 3 given what he started with.

 

[FMichael]

Look, if yzerman, hakan and company said cossa is the guy to go with over wallstedt, i have to give us the benefit of the doubt until we see like 50-75 games playing in the nhl from both of them.

It is definitely going to be interesting in 2040 when we all look back and say damn, that pick was ___________ compared to wallstedt!

Truth be told I seem to recall Chris Osgood playing a part in drafting Cossa...

 

[Detroit Knights]

Truth be told I seem to recall Chris Osgood playing a part in drafting Cossa...

ah okay well add him to the list then.

 

[DanielMarois]

It's a weirdly constructed roster in that the two best scorers are in their prime surrounded by experience, and yet the team is still kind of rebuilding and many prospects are not there yet. Then the prospects have to come up and go through the growing pains so who knows how that will affect the team overall and how long that will take. And the prospects may not be A level ones anyways.

 

[dj4aces]

The free agent signings should be an indicator of where Stevie thinks we are now, as well as where he expects us to go. Chiarot for four years, Holl for three years, Copp for five years, and all at higher salary values is only questionable to bad if one doesn't consider where Stevie thinks we are. After the signings, he then comes out and tells us to not expect playoffs just yet, that we're still not there yet, and the fans forget all about it with the first sign of success, only to get our hearts shattered by midseason.

As for why Stevie isn't signing more Russian players, there's a few things here. First, Russian players have to want to come to Detroit. That hasn't really been a big thing in recent history, considering the fact we haven't made the playoffs since 2016. Second, and more important, is whether Stevie believes the available Russian players fit into the mold he's creating here,

 

[norrisnick]

Ok, what else besides ownership. I don't think that ownership is what is preventing these guys from showing up on time. We have our own plane and I am guessing that paychecks aren't bouncing.

I know the drum you're beating, but if you think a franchise's struggles fall more squarely on a single player's head rather than coaching, management, or ownership... I don't know what to tell you.

Larkin doesn't make the roster decisions. He doesn't make the practice schedule. He doesn't make the lineup decisions. He doesn't draw up the special team schemes. He doesn't make the in-game strategic decisions. He shows up and he tries his hardest. Doesn't always make the best decision, but lack of effort is not something you can toss his way. It's like blaming Yzerman for not winning anything the first 13 years of his career...

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

I know the drum you're beating, but if you think a franchise's struggles fall more squarely on a single player's head rather than coaching, management, or ownership... I don't know what to tell you.

Larkin doesn't make the roster decisions. He doesn't make the practice schedule. He doesn't make the lineup decisions. He doesn't draw up the special team schemes. He doesn't make the in-game strategic decisions. He shows up and he tries his hardest. Doesn't always make the best decision, but lack of effort is not something you can toss his way. It's like blaming Yzerman for not winning anything the first 13 years of his career...

We are talking about showing up on time and playing hard from the first drop of the puck, i.e. not skating around stoned forgetting that you had a game at 7:30 on a Tuesday night in Calgary.

Keep blaming everyone but the people who actually play the game. Just don't get frustrated when we have the same issue with a new coaching staff.

Lastly, if you think Larkin always plays with the same level of effort, you aren't watching.

 

[Detroit Knights]

We are talking about showing up on time and playing hard from the first drop of the puck, i.e. not skating around stoned forgetting that you had a game at 7:30 on a Tuesday night in Calgary.

Keep blaming everyone but the people who actually play the game. Just don't get frustrated when we have the same issue with a new coaching staff.

Lastly, if you think Larkin always plays with the same level of effort, you aren't watching.

Has anyone else noticed that the past week or so (since his hit or maybe right before?) all of his press conferences are just a real downer lol. Yeah we lost but he looks like he is doing a woe is me situation and I'm hating it.

and for the idiotic crowd that thinks I would feel the same way if i was 1-7 or whatever we are at right now, then duh I would be, but I am not the captain who is supposed to be the stable force in emotions that is supposed to also lift guys up instead of being sad with them. Analogy? Dick Winters after being surrounded, blockaded, in the middle of german winter, and german artillary/flares going off every night and still going around and uplifting people because one bad actor in morale ruins the entire morale of the squad.

bam ww2 reference!

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

My only beef with SY, if I truly have one is...if he weren't DRW fan favourite and historical idol SY he would get more fair criticism or skepticism from the fans and media..

 

[Oddbob]

My issue is really starting to be Lalonde.

Blashill blended way too much, but Lalonde doesn't blend at all if things aren't working ala the Jets game. The lines he set at game start and the defence pairs remain intact no matter what, with the only exception being if someone gets hurt or is in the box. To me that makes it seem like he doesn't have good in game coaching. I really am starting to think he is a really good assistant coach, but not a great head coach.

The other thing is how Petry is anywhere close to Seider in ice time, UNLESS Seider is playing hurt and they just are being quiet about it. Even in off games or not at his best, Seider is still way better than everyone else going over the boards from the d-crew. Even with that, why is Petry playing so much anyhow, as he is out of position a ton.