I agree great scorers will put up great numbers no matter who they're playing with but the more offensively gifted teammates they have, the better their year-end totals will be. Even with the example of players you've given. Gretzky left the Oilers when he was 27, right in the heart of his prime but never did he come close to touching 200 points again in his career. When he left his HHOF linemates and went to SoCal, the effects of playing with guys like Bernie Nicholls and Thomas Sandstrom showed. 168 points would have been a disappointment in Edmonton, but that was the highest point total he'd ever reach again in his career.
Few players had the advantage of playing in a system that was all offense, all the time. Gretzky's number drop in Socal had a little to do with a new system/Coach and teammates and later, his buggered back than it did his linemates.
His final 2 seasons in Edmonton were 183 and 164 points(On pace for 183). His drop to 168(On pace for 172) was not a huge margin given he was being thrown into a whole new team and system with a far lesser transition game in place centered around him and that his numbers had begun decreasing before he even left Edmonton.
Marcel Dionne never played with a Kurri or Anderson-caliber player but even his best numbers came in years where he had much better offensively-oriented forwards. In fact, in his best statistical season where he put up 137 points, 50-goal scorer Charlie Simmer finished second in scoring on the team with 101 points in 64 games. Had Simmer played a full 80 game season like Dionne, his projected total would have been 126 points.
Marcel Dionne played with absolute garbage in Detroit and still put up 121 points, and in his early LA days, 122 points with Williams and Murphy. One could attribute his number jump to Simmer/Taylor, but it had more to do with him growing as a player and being in a team where the system was built around him for a longer period of time. Simmer and Taylor were not bad players even without Dionne. I do not know why everyone acts like they would be bums without him.
Arguments can be made that Lemiuex's best seasons adjusted for era and injuries came when he had Jagr and a much improved supporting cast. I didn't watch Howe or Bathgate at their best, but I certainly don't think it's appropriate to say Howe didn't have any help in Detroit with talented teammates.
Lemieux's best 2 season, even after adjustments were 1989 and 1993(The freak year).
Are there seasons where you can find players doing it all themselves without great linemates. Yes, sure. But when looking at the all-time greatest seasons, with the evidence I've shown, a player has always had at least one other gifted offensive-player on his team. This is a fact. The greatest seasons where a player does it all himself without significant help comes from guys like Bure and Ovechkin. But neither of them play defense, and their best seasons still weren't at the level of Yzerman's best season.
This is not even remotely close to accurate.
This argument may work for certain players like Ovechkin, where he doesn't play much of a two-way game, doesn't kill penalties, doesn't use his big body the way Lindros used his (for better or for worse), and for a guy that double shifts when he wants to and floats and cherrypicks like there's no tomorrow. For a guy like him, being the go-to guy with tremendous skill probably inflates his numbers than a guy that plays a more rounded game with better linemates.
This argument is getting old.
There were plenty of players who played with Lesser linemates and thrived by being the go to guy, and they were not all cherry picking Pavel Bure's. Ovechkin is nothing like that to begin with, although he is no saint.
Yzerman's numbers actually decreased when they picked up Fedorov, and the pressure was taken off him to be the only go to guy.
Jagr was much the same. Ron Francis left and was replaced by Straka and Kip Miller, and Jagr does not miss a beat. In fact, he had his best season ever(IMO) after Francis left.
Now, Jagr is also an example of another aspect we were discussing regarding the Big 4(Howe, Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux) and how they can make gaudy jumps in anyone's numbers. TheDevilMadeMe covered that in his post.
Adam Oates is another example of a man who scored it with the best, or with the fringe players. Adam Oates and Brett Hull had Magic Chemistry. Oates proved he was capable of carrying on that superstar level mega scoring with Fool's gold Joe Juneau and Dmitri Kvartalnov in Boston the year(Neely was out all year) he left and then maintaining that excellence the next year with half a season of Neely, while Hull dropped off a bit with Janney and Shanahan.
Earlier today, I mentioned how Jari Kurri didn't miss a beat his first season without Gretzky.
Kurri's last year with Gretzky: 43 goals, 96 points in 80 games
Kurri's first year without Gretzky: 44 goals, 102 points in 76 games.
Mark Recchi went from the Pens to the Flyers, and was stuck with completely different linemates(Rookie Lindros) yet did not miss a beat.
Mario Lemieux scored 199 points with Rob Brown and Bob Errey.
Hull and Mikita rarely played on the same line and played with lesser players on their team more often than not, yet both were constant scoring title threats.
Hawerchuk went from the Jets to the Sabres, where he was with better linemates like Turgeon, Mogilny, Andreychuk and later, LaFontaine, and his numbers did not suddenly skyrocket.
Marcel Dionne was scoring 122 points with the Dead wings and nobody on his wings, and 130-37 points with Much better superstars like Dave Taylor and Charlie Simmer on his line in LA. If you want to argue that that 7-10% increase was due to better linemates instead of the changing philosophy of teams going to all out offense, I won't argue. But it was a marginal increase, and I have always advocated that linemates might make a 5-10 point difference, but that the superstars will score big no matter who you put them with.
Mike Bossy. In the year 1984-85, Trottier was recovering from a string of injuries which required surgery, and as a result, was relegated to lower line duties. Gillies at this point, was ready to retire and was no longer what he was. Sutter was moved to Bossy's line all year, along with Tonelli. Both Sutter and Tonelli had career years in which they never came close to matching ever again, while Bossy scored around the exact same clip he would have with Trottier/Gillies on his line. He never missed a beat without his superstar linemates and 2nd liners replacing them.
I've seen you try to make this 5-10 point argument before, it's your opinion, I'll respect that, but I personally don't subscribe to it for the same reasons I gave Ogopogo. The greatest offensive players all-time have all registered their best totals playing with other good or great offensive players.
Chemistry can make the world of a difference. Just ask Brett Hull what he thinks of Adam Oates.
Hmmm. The argument works both ways. Notice how Adam Oates had absolutely no problem living without Hull? In Boston, he was put on a line with a Rookie Joe Juneau and a Rookie Kvarntalnov and he had a career year. Hull by contrast was given a lesser center in Janney and an up and coming Shanahan.
