lextune
I'm too old for this.
Also off topic: I agree, I had Clarke five or six spots higher than Mess on my original list.
Dark Shadows
Registered User
In this case, I agreewith you. Yzerman is being underrated.
My answer to the original question is, no.
There are a few better seasons out there(Not including Orr, gretzky, Lemieux). Ill list off a few notable ones.:
- Gordie Howe's 95 point year in 52-53. It was up there on the Lemieux/Gretzky level offensively, and Howe was also a very good two way player. Physical and feared. Howe in the 50's had several season like this, but this was the best of them.
- Howie Morenz 1927-28 year. One of the best defensive forwards in the league, with outstanding dominating offense on top of it.
-Bobby Hull has multiple years in which he dominated the goal scoring by huge margins. Most notably his 65-66 season. Was a good two way player as well. Mikita has a or two season that is comparable as well.
-Those who favor the "More parity in the league today making it difficult to stand out" arguments will defend Jagr's 127 point 1998-99 season. I am not one of those.
-Sakic's Hart year stands comparatively close. Was runner up for the Selke and if not for Lemieux's return, Jagr likely does not close that point gap.
Etc
There are a several more, but the original question has been answered. If I pulled out Defensemen and goaltenders there would be a larger list.
Bourque has a season that stands up, as do Harvey, Shore, Potvin. Its more difficult to compare forwards to defensemen,so ill just avoid that part of the debate.
The comparison is a good one. Both were tremendous competitors who did anything to win. Clarke loses a bit of respect from me for being blatantly more dirty. Messier was dirty enough in his prime, but Clarke was just vicious. I.E his ankle breaking slash on Kharlamov(In his defense, he was told to do it by Ferguson. But Fergy knew he would have no problem with it) or his Butt end in an exhibition game vs Pospisil.
Messier Makes up ground in offense and Playoffs.
Clarke was not the playoff force Messier was, and is a bit behind on offense(Which is largely due to the defensive nature of his team. But if that is used as a reason to forgive some of the offensive gap, then it should also forgive Messier some of the defensive gap)
Ok, just to make it clear, I wasn't sure about that. The thread/title said season which means both regular season and PO's, and the top 40 list provided is obviously both reg and PO.
But then I take back the "100" claim, but still not best ever. But I think we all agree on that...
A valid argument though is that there was 41% MORE GOALS SCORED in 1988-89 then in 1998-99.
41% more goals.
Can you take Jagr's 127 pts and multiple it with 1.41 and say that he would have scored 180 pts in 1988-89? I don't know. But it definitly takes away the diffrence. A helluva lot more goals were scored at that time compared to 10 years later, so stats can't really be compared.
But just from watching hockey at the time, my personal opinion is definitly that Jagr and Forsberg dominated a tad more then Yzerman did, in their best years. Like if you watched JJ and Forsberg in their prime you were just like extremely impressed. Yzerman was very impressive too of course, but he were more like really effective.
In the end I think Yzerman's 88/89 season is right up there with Forsberg and Jagr's -- but its easy to get fooled by the 155 pts number. 7.48 goals per game were scored in 88/89 compared to 5.27 in 99 and the all time low, 5.14 in 04... That definitly had a big impact on all thoose numbers.
foame
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It's clearly a "regular season only"-list...
Yzerman stats:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=476980
overpass
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Agreed, we don't know if Jagr would have scored 180 points in 1988-89. But we know that Jagr's 127 points in 1998-99 were equally valuable to 180 points in 1988-99 in terms of wins*. Goals per game fluctuate, but wins per game remain constant.
*Looking at the points alone, not their all-around contributions.
Canadiens Fan
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For what it's worth.
I attended a SIHR meeting with Jimmy Devellano as the guest speaker last night.
He told the assembled members that he doesn't put much stock in Yzerman's big point year's. He used the term inflated. He stated that the main goal of the team then was selling tickets and that Yzerman was encouraged to put up big numbers to garner attention and to not worry about backchecking.
In time that changed, but according to Devellano, Yzerman did not become a complete player until Bowman arrived, and that even then it was a tough, and somewhat acrimonius process.
I attended a SIHR meeting with Jimmy Devellano as the guest speaker last night.
He told the assembled members that he doesn't put much stock in Yzerman's big point year's. He used the term inflated. He stated that the main goal of the team then was selling tickets and that Yzerman was encouraged to put up big numbers to garner attention and to not worry about backchecking.
In time that changed, but according to Devellano, Yzerman did not become a complete player until Bowman arrived, and that even then it was a tough, and somewhat acrimonius process.
It's difficult to analyze and compare players across different eras and different positions, so perhaps a case certainly can be made for some of the players mentioned on this thread. Again, I didn't watch Richard or Morenz play. I didn't see Howe in his best years. It is quite difficult for me to say Yzerman's best season was better than guys I didn't see play.
But in the last 20 years, 2 individual seasons jump out at me more than the others (not incl. 66/99). Chris Pronger's monster year and Joe Sakic's Hart year. I'd say both those players brought a more complete game than Yzerman did in 89 but Yzerman had more substance and a much greater impact on the league than Pronger and Sakic had, IF you can somehow pretend there was no Wayne Gretzky or Mario Lemiuex around.
In 2000-01, Bure was the best sniper in the league, potting 59 goals compared to Sakic's 54, and a Lemieux-aided Jagr beat Sakic 121 to 118 for the Art Ross. Even if you remove Jagr from the race, Sakic beats next-best Elias by 23%. Impressive but not to the proportions of Yzerman in 89. And as a good as Sakic was defensively that season, he wasn't a dominating 2-way player like Clarke or Trottier. Good, yes. Great, yes. One of the best ever, no.
And I guess I don't have to comment on Pronger's season, since no one else has mentioned him.
I don't buy into Jagr's 98-99 season. He won the scoring race by 18% and wasn't the best goal-scorer that year. Like Sakic, was it impressive, yes. One of the best all-time, I don't think so. What diminishes this season, or at least makes it less remarkable, was that he was a complete floater that year. Perhaps not to the extent of his first few years in the NHL, but he certainly wasn't as responsible in his own end like post-04 lockout Jagr was, and nothing compared to Sakic's Hart year. Dead puck era or not, this season's not comparable to Yzerman's.
RabbinsDuck
Registered User
Would you have Sakic's Hart year ahead of Fedorov's? I think the gap between defense (in favor of Fedorov) is much greater than the gap between offense (in favor of Sakic) those years.
Both were great leaders (2 Cups as captains); both were consistently 'good' offensively (with Messier slightly ahead); Both were mean, nasty and intimidating; Messier gets a significant bump in the playoffs and for career -- but Clarke is considered one of the greatest defensive forwards of all-time. Messier wasn't even one of the best of his own time. I consider that a huge difference.
And was Clarke really that much worse than Messier? Sure, Messier's victims tended to be less high-profile than Clarke's, but he has been suspended 7 times for:
- Suspended one game by NHL during 1983-84 season for receiving three game-misconduct penalties during course of season
Suspended six games by NHL during 1983-84 season for hitting Thomas Gradin over the helmet with his stick during Edmonton's Jan. 18, 1984, game vs. Vancouver. Gradin suffered a mild concussion
Suspended 10 games by NHL for cracking Jamie Macoun's cheekbone with a blind-side punch during Edmonton's Dec. 26, 1984, game at Calgary
Suspended six games by NHL during 1988-89 season for hitting Rich Sutter in mouth with a high stick during Edmonton's Oct. 23, 1988, game at Vancouver. Although Messier was not called for a penalty on the play, Sutter suffered four broken teeth
Suspended without pay for three non-game, non-travel days and fined $500 by NHL for stick-swinging incident with Ulf Samuelsson during N.Y. Rangers' March 5, 1993, game vs. Pittsburgh
Suspended two games and fined $1,000 by NHL for hitting Mike Hough from behind during second period of N.Y. Rangers' Oct. 6, 1996, game vs. Florida
Suspended two games by NHL during 2003-04 season for spearing Martin Strbak in N.Y. Rangers' March 21, 2004, game at Pittsburgh
Asides from the suspension for the Kharlamov attack, I am having trouble finding more for Clarke?
Dark Shadows
Registered User
Yes, I would rank it ahead of Fedorov, albeit only slightly. I do not think the gap was much greater in defense. Sakic was superb defensively that year, and I notice you always try to play it down as if it were not the case. Offensively, 118 points in 2001 was much harder to attain than 120 in 1994.
You are downplaying just how much different the offensive edge to Messier is. In the playoffs, Messier raised his game higher. He was a very effective checker and shut down other teams top lines while scoring more than he did in the regular season. he might not have been considered the best defensive forward, but he was very good, and more than effective offensively and as a leader.
I would suggest that in both cup wins the Flyers had, even if you were to award the Smythe to a skater rather than Parent, that Macleish(Who was clutch in both cup wins and also a key PKer and two way forward) would be the front runner. The year after that, in their run to the finals, Leach was phenomenal.
His Drop in playoff production is one of his only negatives(Other than dirty play). Messier by contrast is considered one of the top 5 playoff players of all time by me. A big game player.
Clarke wins out, but Messier is not far behind.
I have continually flip flopped on the two of them in the last 2-3 years in my ranking. I am sure I had Messier ranked ahead for my last list, but changed it after revision.
Clarke was Brutal with his stick, and he hid behind the rest of the bullies when it came time to pay the tab. His Butt end to the face of Pospisil wasn't exactly shocking at the time, chiefly because Clarke did things like that often. It was shocking to the international community though because they were not used to such savagery.
That Said, I do rank Clarke higher, but it is close and should be close.
You know what, I agree 100% actually. That year in Pittsburgh was not JJ's finest moment despite the pts he put up. It was very much a me-me-me-me-me type of season.
Like Bure the year he had to get into the top 3 in scoring to get a new contract. I definitly don't have anything again Pavel Bure, but some of the seasons he and JJ had were only about them, they didn't carry their team or make their linemates all that much better, but they scored a boatload of pts but thats about it.
I just used that season as a example.
Exactly, in principle, 127 pts in 99' were pretty much just as important as 180 pts in 89'. There are some but's and if's, but over 80 games all thoose should even out pretty much.
That pretty much right there put a pretty big nail into the ballon called Yzermans 88-89 season.
Seriously though, I didn't think there would be such a diffrence before I checked up thoose stats. I be damned.
Kyle McMahon
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This list is terrible, but thanks for posting it lol.
This panel actually thinks that Gordie Howe's second-best season was his 68-69 year? Looks to me like a lot of seasons that only stand out on the basis of raw statistical numbers. Pretty poor researching by this panel, though given some of the names on it, I doubt much research was actually conducted. To be honest, this is probably exactly the kind of list I'd have come up with...when I was 12.
Canadiens Fan
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- Oct 3, 2008
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The panel's rational for picking that particular season for Howe was that he;
- became the oldest player ever to have a 100 point season
- he joined Esposito and Hull as the first members of that exclusive club
In fairness to the voters, he only had two other season's in his career where he scored more goals and none where he had more points, and all at the age of 41.
Canadiens Fan
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- Oct 3, 2008
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I would guess that since Clarke had a better year than Orr in 1973 and he's not on the list ....
Can't say as I disagree ... hard to see how some of Clarke's season's didn't make it ... but the list doesn't include any Beliveau, Lafleur, Jagr season's either.
With almost unanimous displeasure in the THN's list (and for good reason), I decided to make a go at it myself. It's only 1980-present, because I find the 70s extremely difficult to compare with other eras, where you had a vicious guy in Philly, skill and grit in Orr & Esposito in Beantown and a smooth but softer Flower flying in Montreal- all quite successful but vastly different in how they got things done. One can certainly make a case there were 3-5 potential seasons from that decade that could be added to the list below if the 70s were included. I didn't watch hockey prior to the 70s, so it's not my place to comment there.
Alas, the greatest individual seasons by skaters since 1980 (excluding 99/66):
1) Steve Yzerman 1988-89
2) Paul Coffey 1985-86
3) Ray Borque 1989-90
4) Joe Sakic 2000-01
5) Chris Pronger 1999-00
6) Sergei Federov 1993-94
7) Doug Gilmour 1992-93
8) Paul Coffey 1984-85
9) Eric Lindros 1994-95
10) Dennis Potvin 1980-81
I feel like I'm missing a guy though. Either way, I'm sure this will stir up some controversy nonetheless.
Alas, the greatest individual seasons by skaters since 1980 (excluding 99/66):
1) Steve Yzerman 1988-89
2) Paul Coffey 1985-86
3) Ray Borque 1989-90
4) Joe Sakic 2000-01
5) Chris Pronger 1999-00
6) Sergei Federov 1993-94
7) Doug Gilmour 1992-93
8) Paul Coffey 1984-85
9) Eric Lindros 1994-95
10) Dennis Potvin 1980-81
I feel like I'm missing a guy though. Either way, I'm sure this will stir up some controversy nonetheless.
Trottier
Very Random
Rule #1 (at least mine): no one's on-ice "approach" is compared to that of #99s and #66s. It's unfair to the player and devalues the LARGE gap in offensive prowess between those two and their contemporaries.
You see, Mario and Gretzky didn't have to worry about defense. The entire time they skated a shift, their offensive skill level dictated that play (attention) revolved around them for players on both teams, even if they never touched the puck the entire 45 seconds or so. As such, they transcended the game as we know it.
They are the lone exceptions, among forwards, IMO.
There are no others, not anywhere near that level.
Yzerman, being a mere mortal, was expected to play a complete game, as he did splendidly for many year following, generally speaking.
So sure, statistically, the season you cite was spectacular, offensively and statistically.
That impresses some (yourself included) moreso than it does others (myself included). Simply look at the game differently.
Last edited:
Kyle McMahon
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I can see the rationale for it, and they have also chosen to include several great rookie years by players who would go on to much greater heights. But to call it "The Top 40 greatest individual seasons" is misleading in that case.
lextune
I'm too old for this.
Indeed it will, lol.
While you might be able to make the argument of Yzerman's 88-89 over Bourque's 89-90, (you wouldn't convince me, but it is not a laughable idea), no season Paul Coffey ever had is in the same ballpark as Ray in '90.
Any offensive advantage Paul has is totally overwhelmed by the Hart caliber defensive dominance (coupled with 84 points no less), that Ray exhibited.
Trottier
Very Random
It's funny that Trottier posted in the thread but don't remember it
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=621645
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=18631150&postcount=2
Skimmed over the numbers in that thread, I guess!
Indeed.
Would be interesting, in today's Nu NHL age, where players are lazily judged by many based solely by their fantasy stats, if Clarke's dominance on both sides of the puck would be as appreciated by Hart Trophy voters as they were back then.
***
I like stats...in support of opinions. Hate them when people all too frequently substitute stats for an opinion.
Likewise, with rare exception offensive stats, presented entirely out of context, offer limited insight, outside of a fantasy league.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Rather Interesting
The list is very impressive if readers take the time to look at its nuances.
First it is a compilation of greatest seasons as in significant as opposed to ranking a player's best.
Gordie Howe's 1968-69 season has many significant feature's including the fact that it was the first 100 POINT(103 PTS) season recorded by a 40 year old player who also had a +45 +/-. I'm sure that posters have a ready list of 40 year old NHL players who scored 100 + points.
Tom Barrasso 1983-84 season. 18 year old goalie out of an American high school. Incredible record.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/1984.html
Check the list for the nuances.
The list is very impressive if readers take the time to look at its nuances.
First it is a compilation of greatest seasons as in significant as opposed to ranking a player's best.
Gordie Howe's 1968-69 season has many significant feature's including the fact that it was the first 100 POINT(103 PTS) season recorded by a 40 year old player who also had a +45 +/-. I'm sure that posters have a ready list of 40 year old NHL players who scored 100 + points.
Tom Barrasso 1983-84 season. 18 year old goalie out of an American high school. Incredible record.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BUF/1984.html
Check the list for the nuances.
I was flip-flopping with those two, so putting Borque ahead there wouldn't bother me much. I think their seasons are a lot closer though. Coffey, despite the absurd offensive numbers lost the Norris trophy a couple times to stay-at-home defenceman Rod Langway, and he came back with a strong defensive game and an actually improved offensive game too. Smoothest skater in the league and the best puck-moving defenceman since Orr. I think Coffey's defensive game often gets overlooked because of the run-and-gun system of the Oilers. Joining the rush, this guy was dynamite.
Kyle McMahon
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It appears to be a mish-mash of both, however. Significant/remarkable seasons (like the 40+ year old Howe and rookie Barrasso seasons) are inserted here and there, while the "greatest seasons" appear to be, in many cases, simply the "highest scoring seasons". 75% of the seasons on that list are from the post-expansion era. Though I suppose three of the four greatest players played in that era, so maybe it's appropriate.
I'll concede that I initially thought the list was simply the top 40 seasons in terms of absolute value. Viewing it under the perspective brought forth by yourself and Canadiens Fan makes it look a fair bit better.
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