Your top 10 playoff performers of all-time

[Hardyvan123]

What are your stats to back up that parent was always below average? I remember there was a post a few years back, which showed parent was always among the league leaders in save percentage.

We are talking playoffs here not regular season.

Outside of his 2 cup years, where he was outstanding, his line was 16-23 in the Win-Loss column which is the most important one for goalies.

 

[canucks4ever]

We are talking playoffs here not regular season.

Outside of his 2 cup years, where he was outstanding, his line was 16-23 in the Win-Loss column which is the most important one for goalies.

Win-loss is a horrible way to judge a goalie, if save percentage didnt exist, everyone would think broduer is the greatest.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

EDIT: I haven't given my list, but almost needless to say (and it's pretty much unanimous here), Gretzky and Roy are at the very top. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a clear-cut number three.

I think beliveau and Richard are clearcut 3 and 4 in either order. After that, it gets much harder to determine.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Win-loss is a horrible way to judge a goalie, if save percentage didnt exist, everyone would think broduer is the greatest.

Look I'll agree with the Broduer example here but up to a point only. A goalies job is to stop pucks and win games a 16-23 record (on some decent teams some not so much so) is a pretty clear indication that Parent is not even a top 10 playoff goalie of all time IMO.

I'll put it more simply on how I view it, 2 great seasons do not make for an all time great for any player at any position in the playoffs all time.

For his name to even be mentioned in the top 10 all time playoff performers is simply missing the fact that the Stanley Cup has been awarded for over 120 years and there is some excellent competition for the best of all time.

 

[canucks4ever]

Look I'll agree with the Broduer example here but up to a point only. A goalies job is to stop pucks and win games a 16-23 record (on some decent teams some not so much so) is a pretty clear indication that Parent is not even a top 10 playoff goalie of all time IMO.

I'll put it more simply on how I view it, 2 great seasons do not make for an all time great for any player at any position in the playoffs all time.

For his name to even be mentioned in the top 10 all time playoff performers is simply missing the fact that the Stanley Cup has been awarded for over 120 years and there is some excellent competition for the best of all time.

Who are your top playoff goalies by the way? Roy and broda are the two obvious choices, but after that the list gets slimmer. Most goalies only had 3 or 4 great runs.

Jacques plante was winning multiple games with montreal, then when he goes to new york, he starts lossing. Win/loss is a team stat.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Who are your top playoff goalies by the way? Roy and broda are the two obvious choices, but after that the list gets slimmer. Most goalies only had 3 or 4 great runs.

Jacques plante was winning multiple games with montreal, then when he goes to new york, he starts lossing. Win/loss is a team stat.

Off the top of my head using modern guys Dryden, Smith, Broduer, Belfour, Fuhr and Hasek.

 

[canucks4ever]

Off the top of my head using modern guys Dryden, Smith, Broduer, Belfour, Fuhr and Hasek.

You can admit, that two of those guys are based on the team they played for. Although billy smith is harder to evaluate because his save percentages were unknown.

 

[JackSlater]

you can say the same thing about Messier.

... and I would, although to a lesser degree since Messier did more outside of the 80s and spent less time on Gretzky's wing.

 

[#66]

What do you guys think of Bossy topping a list? IMO three years in a row with 17 playoff goals is one of the more insane hockey stats.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

What do you guys think of Bossy topping a list? IMO three years in a row with 17 playoff goals is one of the more insane hockey stats.

Bossy would likely be in my top 15. I just ran out of room for him in a top 10

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm sorry, but that's not accurate. For one, Kurri placed behind Messier and Craig Simpson in overall scoring. He certainly didn't lead the team in Goals; Simpson had 16 and Esa Tikkanen had 13.


EDIT: I haven't given my list, but almost needless to say (and it's pretty much unanimous here), Gretzky and Roy are at the very top. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a clear-cut number three.

I loved Roy but I think he gets overhyped. Yes, he was absolutely incredible in winning two cups on Hab teams that had no business winning, but he also completely disappeared for several years in the playoffs. He was very inconsistent and the year before he won his second cup there were whispers of trading him. I don't think he warrants a number two placement.

When he was on, he was as good as anyone but he could be completely absent or as Don Cherry used to say "he looks dopey out there."

And I don't understand how Ken Dryden never comes up in these conversations. He beats one of the best teams ever assembled for his first cup (after 6 pro games.) He plays in 8 postseasons and wins 6 cups. Yes, they were powerhouse teams but notice that when he's not there in '74 they don't win and they don't win again after he leaves in '79. He was a big reason they were a powerhouse in the first place and his numbers actually are much better in many of those postseasons than they are in the regular season. (I think I probably typed this exact same post about three years ago)

How is it that this guy gets no respect?

 

[Hardyvan123]

You can admit, that two of those guys are based on the team they played for. Although billy smith is harder to evaluate because his save percentages were unknown.

I have no problem putting all of these guys ahead of what Parent did overall in the playoffs

 

[quoipourquoi]

I loved Roy but I think he gets overhyped. Yes, he was absolutely incredible in winning two cups on Hab teams that had no business winning, but he also completely disappeared for several years in the playoffs. He was very inconsistent and the year before he won his second cup there were whispers of trading him. I don't think he warrants a number two placement.

He couldn't make it to the Conference Finals every playoff in his career... just 58% of them in a 21-30 team league.

 

[Peter9]

Another name that ought to be considered but who is not mentioned above: Ted Kennedy of the Leafs. He won three retroactive Smyth awards.

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml#winners

Anyway, he was among those players who took his game up several notches at playoff time.

Edit: Apologies to TheDevil MadeMe. I now see he did have Kennedy on his list.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Doug Gilmour. Dougie was unstoppable. Well he was stoppable, you just needed Gretzky to do it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He couldn't make it to the Conference Finals every playoff in his career... just 58% of them in a 21-30 team league.

I didn't say he wasn't great.

He was incredible in '86 and '93, no doubt. He also made the cup finals in '89 (he wasn't actually that great that postseason though.) In '87 Hayward played the vast majority of the games when they made it that year.

The rest of the time he was with Montreal I don't remember him being very good in the postseason. In fact he was downright horrific some of the time, esp against the Bruins. I'm telling you this off memory though, I'll check the numbers later.

Then he went to a stacked team in Colorado and played well.

Dryden (seems to) have all of the pluses that Roy has and fewer minuses. Plus he beat tougher competition in '71 (albeit with a better team.) I'm not sure how Roy makes it at number 2 and Dryden doesn't make it all on most lists.

 

[livewell68]

Yeah..and if I didnt have a luck being drafted by one of the most stacked team of all-time, I wouldnt see SC final...

That can be said about many Hall of Fame players.

Lemieux never saw a Stanley Cup Final either without Jagr, Francis, Barasso, Coffey, Recchi...

Jagr was actually a better playoff performer without Lemieux and those players.

He had the second best PPG of the Dead Puck Era in the playoffs.

 

[Blizzard]

That can be said about many Hall of Fame players.

Lemieux never saw a Stanley Cup Final either without Jagr, Francis, Barasso, Coffey, Recchi...

Jagr was actually a better playoff performer without Lemieux and those players.

He had the second best PPG of the Dead Puck Era in the playoffs.

Really?

His two biggest playoff years were 91-92 with 24 points and 95-96 with 23 points. Lemieux, Coffey, Francis, and Barrasso were all there in 91-92 and Lemieux, Francis, and Barrasso were there in 95-96. Those were also his two biggest goal scoring playoff years with 11 in each. Not to mention the only time any team with Jagr on it reached a Conference Final or a Cup Final that team also had Mario Lemieux on it.

 

[RECsGuy*]

Postseason: 129 GP - 85 G - 75 A - 160 PTS
3 Stanley Cups
1 Conn Smythe

...should get you on EVERY ****ING LIST in this thread.

It should.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Postseason: 129 GP - 85 G - 75 A - 160 PTS
3 Stanley Cups
1 Conn Smythe

...should get you on EVERY ****ING LIST in this thread.

It should.

You mean 4 stanley cups right?

 

[RECsGuy*]

You mean 4 stanley cups right?

lawl my bad. exactly!

 

[quoipourquoi]

I didn't say he wasn't great.

He was incredible in '86 and '93, no doubt. He also made the cup finals in '89 (he wasn't actually that great that postseason though.) In '87 Hayward played the vast majority of the games when they made it that year.

The rest of the time he was with Montreal I don't remember him being very good in the postseason. In fact he was downright horrific some of the time, esp against the Bruins. I'm telling you this off memory though, I'll check the numbers later.

Then he went to a stacked team in Colorado and played well.

Dryden (seems to) have all of the pluses that Roy has and fewer minuses. Plus he beat tougher competition in '71 (albeit with a better team.) I'm not sure how Roy makes it at number 2 and Dryden doesn't make it all on most lists.

Of all of the goaltenders to make the Finals in the save percentage era, Roy's 1989 was actually the third highest mark above the league-wide average (.920 in a year in which .879 was the norm). He had a so-so final three games though, but as a whole, it was remarkable, particularly considering how he only lost two games total in the first three rounds.

The only year in Montreal in which Roy's playoff was below the actual league average was 1987 (Roy swept Boston on his own; Hayward played against Quebec), so while he lost a few series to Boston otherwise, he was still playing better than most, and often times better than all.

Roy's Playoff vs. League Average

1986: .923, .874
1987: .873, .880
1988: .890, .880
1989: .920, .879
1990: .911, .881
1991: .898, .886
1992: .904, .888
1993: .929, .885
1994: .930, .895

And that's only looking at the first 70 of his 151 Wins. He kinda lapped his contemporaries while playing in Colorado, being the difference against the 1996 Red Wings (62 Wins) and 2001 Devils. There have been a lot of great goalies in the four-round era, and the #2 winningest is Martin Brodeur with 99 Wins, a whole 52 short of Roy.

Ken Dryden was great for Montreal, particularly in 1971 when he won the Conn Smythe, but there were five other Stanley Cups in which he was not considered the difference maker in the playoffs (if the Avalanche were stacked, I don't know what to call the 70s Canadiens), and that's the department by which Roy separates himself from practically everyone.

No other player since 1965 has won Conn Smythes in different decades. No other player since 1965 has won Conn Smythes on different teams. Other than Roy, Wayne Gretzky has the longest distance between Conn Smythes at just three seasons. Patrick Roy has Conn Smythes in three decades, seven years apart, eight years apart, fifteen years apart, different franchises, different Conferences, different eras. He didn't depend upon a core group of players to consistently win in order for him to collect his individual accolades in a short span of time; he was great from Year One to Year Eighteen (well... maybe Year Sixteen).

He might have played pretty well in overtime too.

 

[blogofmike]

Re: Bernie Parent

Bernie Parent shouldn't be judged on his best two seasons, or by excluding his best two seasons.

Here's some goalie numbers I checked, just for fun. I had wanted a 60 game cutoff, but Broda + Durnan would be out.

Top 40 Goalies, Career GVT/Games played (min 40 GP)

Rank | GVT | Name | GVT/G | GP
1 | 57.5 | Ken Dryden | 0.504 | 114
2 | 61.7 | Billy Smith | 0.485 | 127
3 | 31.8 | John Vanbiesbrouck | 0.480 | 66
4 | 34.4 | Bernie Parent | 0.480 | 72
5 | 21.9 | Olaf Kolzig | 0.470 | 47
6 | 117.8 | Patrick Roy | 0.465 | 254
7 | 25.4 | Ken Wregget | 0.456 | 56
8 | 24.0 | Jean-Sebastien Giguere | 0.455 | 53
9 | 55.3 | Dominik Hasek | 0.453 | 122
10 | 46.9 | Jacques Plante | 0.426 | 110
11 | 70.0 | Ed Belfour | 0.422 | 166
12 | 26.9 | Johnny Bower | 0.371 | 73
13 | 15.7 | Patrick Lalime | 0.369 | 43
14 | 14.3 | Cam Ward | 0.354 | 40
15 | 24.7 | Kirk McLean | 0.354 | 70
16 | 16.9 | Turk Broda | 0.351 | 48
17 | 15.1 | Bill Durnan | 0.318 | 48
18 | 42.2 | Curtis Joseph | 0.312 | 135
19 | 12.7 | Gilles Meloche | 0.309 | 41
20 | 56.5 | Martin Brodeur | 0.301 | 187
21 | 22.2 | Felix Potvin | 0.300 | 74
22 | 15.9 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 0.291 | 55
23 | 21.2 | Mike Richter | 0.282 | 75
24 | 11.5 | Ryan Miller | 0.272 | 42
25 | 25.0 | Tony Esposito | 0.250 | 100
26 | 33.9 | Grant Fuhr | 0.230 | 147
27 | 10.6 | Rogie Vachon | 0.221 | 48
28 | 25.0 | Tom Barrasso | 0.216 | 116
29 | 27.0 | Chris Osgood | 0.212 | 128
30 | 10.1 | Bill Ranford | 0.195 | 52
31 | 13.9 | Nikolai Khabibulin | 0.192 | 72
32 | 16.6 | Gerry Cheevers | 0.185 | 90
33 | 12.0 | Gump Worsley | 0.176 | 68
34 | 10.7 | Mike Liut | 0.168 | 64
35 | 12.1 | Harry Lumley | 0.152 | 80
36 | 13.7 | Ron Hextall | 0.151 | 91
37 | 16.1 | Glenn Hall | 0.140 | 115
38 | 9.3 | Evgeni Nabokov | 0.130 | 72
39 | 7.1 | Marc-Andre Fleury | 0.125 | 57
40 | 10.7 | Kelly Hrudey | 0.125 | 86

GVT/Game is not the best stat, great players will be weighed down by games played in their post-prime years, while merely good players may be boosted by only playing prime years, etc.

Anyway, while I don't think Parent was as good as Dryden or Roy, he isn't a Wregget-like outlier either. Parent was one of the better players on the 70's Flyers, and better than a partial W/L record of 16-23 would indicate.

 

[blogofmike]

Jason Spezza - Superstar! or Why 40 games is a bad cutoff

Obviously old Trottier weighs down young Trottier and old Crosby doesn't exist yet, but here are career GVT per game for the playoffs (Forwards only, min 40 games):

Rank | GVT | Name | GVT/G | GP
1 | 113.4 | Wayne Gretzky | 0.545 | 208
2 | 57.5 | Mario Lemieux | 0.537 | 107
3 | 29.1 | Sidney Crosby | 0.529 | 55
4 | 23.2 | Martin St. Louis | 0.516 | 45
5 | 69.9 | Peter Forsberg | 0.463 | 151
6 | 24.8 | Evgeni Malkin | 0.451 | 55
7 | 55.1 | Maurice Richard | 0.414 | 133
8 | 22.2 | Jarome Iginla | 0.411 | 54
9 | 68.8 | Joe Sakic | 0.400 | 172
10 | 20.9 | Eric Lindros | 0.394 | 53
11 | 17.2 | Max Bentley | 0.391 | 44
12 | 62.9 | Jean Beliveau | 0.388 | 162
13 | 60.4 | Gordie Howe | 0.385 | 157
14 | 34.8 | Henrik Zetterberg | 0.378 | 92
15 | 63.9 | Jaromir Jagr | 0.378 | 169
16 | 23.2 | Brad Richards | 0.368 | 63
17 | 23.5 | Pavel Bure | 0.367 | 64
18 | 46.7 | Mike Bossy | 0.362 | 129
19 | 85.0 | Mark Messier | 0.360 | 236
20 | 41.4 | Bobby Hull | 0.348 | 119
21 | 30.7 | Mats Sundin | 0.337 | 91
22 | 61.6 | Sergei Fedorov | 0.337 | 183
23 | 23.3 | Johan Franzen | 0.333 | 70
24 | 14.3 | Eric Staal | 0.333 | 43
25 | 66.5 | Jari Kurri | 0.333 | 200
26 | 25.8 | Ted Kennedy | 0.331 | 78
27 | 32.7 | Steve Shutt | 0.330 | 99
28 | 42.0 | Guy Lafleur | 0.328 | 128
29 | 17.7 | Saku Koivu | 0.328 | 54
30 | 45.1 | Patrik Elias | 0.327 | 138
31 | 65.7 | Brett Hull | 0.325 | 202
32 | 42.2 | Phil Esposito | 0.325 | 130
33 | 14.9 | Jason Spezza | 0.324 | 46
34 | 34.5 | Daniel Alfredsson | 0.322 | 107
35 | 41.8 | Bernie Geoffrion | 0.317 | 132
36 | 27.9 | Gil Perreault | 0.310 | 90
37 | 20.4 | Valeri Kamensky | 0.309 | 66
38 | 23.5 | Theo Fleury | 0.305 | 77
39 | 59.8 | Steve Yzerman | 0.305 | 196
40 | 44.1 | Jacques Lemaire | 0.304 | 145
41 | 35.0 | Alexei Kovalev | 0.302 | 116
42 | 54.8 | Doug Gilmour | 0.301 | 182
43 | 13.5 | Vincent Lecavalier | 0.300 | 45
44 | 50.3 | Mike Modano | 0.289 | 174
45 | 19.5 | Daniel Briere | 0.287 | 68
46 | 26.6 | Cam Neely | 0.286 | 93
47 | 32.6 | Rick MacLeish | 0.286 | 114
48 | 19.4 | Elmer Lach | 0.285 | 68
49 | 29.2 | Kevin Stevens | 0.283 | 103
50 | 41.5 | Yvan Cournoyer | 0.282 | 147
51 | 28.8 | Marian Hossa | 0.277 | 104
52 | 28.2 | Pierre Turgeon | 0.276 | 102
53 | 42.7 | Stan Mikita | 0.275 | 155
54 | 11.0 | Bill Goldsworthy | 0.275 | 40
55 | 33.2 | Alex Delvecchio | 0.274 | 121
56 | 18.3 | Craig Simpson | 0.273 | 67
57 | 30.8 | Ken Linseman | 0.273 | 113
58 | 11.9 | Sid Smith | 0.270 | 44
59 | 15.1 | Ryan Getzlaf | 0.270 | 56
60 | 24.9 | Peter Stastny | 0.268 | 93
61 | 12.3 | Paul Kariya | 0.267 | 46
62 | 31.1 | Dickie Moore | 0.266 | 117
63 | 44.6 | Denis Savard | 0.264 | 169
64 | 34.8 | Ted Lindsay | 0.262 | 133
65 | 42.6 | Adam Oates | 0.261 | 163
66 | 18.6 | Jude Drouin | 0.258 | 72
67 | 40.5 | Mark Recchi | 0.258 | 157
68 | 36.0 | Steve Larmer | 0.257 | 140
69 | 57.7 | Glenn Anderson | 0.256 | 225
70 | 23.3 | Bernie Federko | 0.256 | 91
71 | 26.1 | Mats Naslund | 0.256 | 102
72 | 30.1 | Bernie Nicholls | 0.255 | 118
73 | 20.9 | Gregg Sheppard | 0.255 | 82
74 | 33.1 | Chris Drury | 0.255 | 130
75 | 40.6 | Brian Propp | 0.254 | 160
76 | 19.9 | Rod Gilbert | 0.252 | 79
77 | 16.8 | Martin Havlat | 0.251 | 67
78 | 46.0 | Brendan Shanahan | 0.250 | 184
79 | 12.0 | Corey Perry | 0.250 | 48
80 | 11.7 | Michael Nylander | 0.249 | 47
81 | 10.2 | Andy McDonald | 0.249 | 41
82 | 38.3 | Jeremy Roenick | 0.249 | 154
83 | 10.4 | Thomas Gradin | 0.248 | 42
84 | 24.0 | Dale Hawerchuk | 0.247 | 97
85 | 18.8 | Darryl Sittler | 0.247 | 76
86 | 15.4 | Rick Martin | 0.244 | 63
87 | 12.2 | Rene Robert | 0.244 | 50
88 | 33.4 | Frank Mahovlich | 0.244 | 137
89 | 29.2 | Scott Gomez | 0.241 | 121
90 | 32.8 | Bobby Clarke | 0.241 | 136
91 | 27.5 | Petr Sykora | 0.239 | 115
92 | 21.0 | Pete Mahovlich | 0.239 | 88
93 | 19.3 | Tim Kerr | 0.238 | 81
94 | 22.3 | Reggie Leach | 0.237 | 94
95 | 26.5 | Milan Hejduk | 0.237 | 112
96 | 30.5 | Bill Barber | 0.236 | 129
97 | 22.8 | Ken Hodge | 0.235 | 97
98 | 10.1 | Andrew Brunette | 0.235 | 43
99 | 37.1 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 0.235 | 158
100 | 12.9 | Sid Abel | 0.235 | 55

Maybe 40 games was too low a cutoff for forwards too, and I should have gone for 60. I really should have looked at these before posting them...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The top 9 gvt/game goalies all played after expansion? That tells me that it isn't helpful in evaluating pre-expansion goalies.