GDT: Your Ottawa Senators VS Les Canadiens de Montréal -7pm - RDS & TSN5

[Brannstorm]

Let's say you are Vancouver,Detroit or Montreal:Would you honestly give trade your 2019 1st for Brady Tkachuk?

If I was Colorado I would wait until the year started to count my chickens is all I am saying.

The point is if our pick is in the top 7 or 8 we'd be getting a much better player than Tkachuk and that was known in June. Its not just Hughes or bust. We could lose the lottery and still be in better shape.

Okay,

To know in June of the year before a draft that the guy selected next year at 8 will be better than this year at 4? This was common knowledge in June?

You could make a lot of money in stocks. How did you figure that one out?

 

[albator71]

That pick was part of the price the Sens paid for Duchene, and that makes it paramount that PD signs him to an extension .....

You are absolutely correct, Dorion need to sign him long term because we are not getting what we gave to acquire him back if we trade him.

 

[Brannstorm]

This is gonna be a controversial opinion but idgaf.

I think we’re better off this year without the Karlsson we had last year (save for maybe the last 10-15 games).

I think I get what you mean,

Karlsson was terrible for most of last year, wasn't himself. Anyone can admit that who watched him, and I can see how clearly in retrospect Karlsson wasn't getting along with management or very many players last season so it might be best (if hypothetically he were to repeat the same performance as last season) to trade him and let the team grow together this season.

If he is healthy then his strengths on the ice would outweigh any negative impact I would assume. However I don't know this for sure, so maybe he had to go either way.

To me, it also feels like a huge distraction is gone. Whomever is to blame or not blame, we rebooted and if it takes ten rebuilds to win one cup then that is how we will get it done.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Karlsson at his worst is still miles ahead of any of our d-men at their best. Karl also got better as the season went on.

The notion that we’re better without last year’s Karlsson is nonsense.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Okay,

To know in June of the year before a draft that the guy selected next year at 8 will be better than this year at 4? This was common knowledge in June?

You could make a lot of money in stocks. How did you figure that one out?

Drafts are not created equal. It's been talked about for nearly a year now the top end in 2019 (and 2020) are supposed to be better than 2018.

 

[Alex1234]

Team planned on a re-build in February, not to trade EK65 ........ otherwise he would have been dealt at the deadline. The fact that he was dealt at the beginning of train camp confirms this.

If Montreal, Vancouver or Detroit ended up selecting between 5 or higher, at the next draft ........... for sure they'd trade their first for BK ......... he'd be a year older, a year more along in his development and a known commodity.

They decided to trade him in february
It was said so by management

 

[JungleBeat]

Okay,

To know in June of the year before a draft that the guy selected next year at 8 will be better than this year at 4? This was common knowledge in June?

You could make a lot of money in stocks. How did you figure that one out?

Dorion was fully aware in June that he was going to trade Karlsson and enter a full rebuild. Why he decided to keep the pick is mind boggling when the next draft is loaded with centres like Hughes,Turcotte,Newhook,Dach,Cozens, Suzuki.

Once again Dorion made a decision that is going to set us back big time. Can’t wait until this clown is fired.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Karlsson at his worst is still miles ahead of any of our d-men at their best. Karl also got better as the season went on.

The notion that we’re better without last year’s Karlsson is nonsense.

Uh, the Senators finished 30th, in a 31 team league.

I'm going to say that if the Senators of this season, finish higher, than 30th, this season without EK65, that the Sens of this season, without EK65, are better than last seasons Sens with EK65.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Uh, the Senators finished 30th, in a 31 team league.

I'm going to say that if the Senators of this season, finish higher, than 30th, this season without EK65, that the Sens of this season, without EK65, are better than last seasons Sens with EK65.

Well yeah, but that doesn’t mean the Sens this year are better off without than with last year’s version of EK.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

They decided to trade him in february
It was said so by management

Then explain why he was not traded, when his value was at it's highest, in February?

Managment's statements, after the trade, indicate that your belief that they decided to trade him prior to the deadline, is mistaken ..... that is unless you can find a quote to back it up?

Yes, they listened to offers from other teams, prior to deadline, but they did not decide to trade him, and he remained a Senator until Training Camp.

“These things are never easy, we know we’re in a rebuild now and we know this is the best thing in the plan and the rebuild for us to have success. We felt that now is the time to trade Erik Karlsson. This has been in the works for a while. We talked to multiple teams around draft time and after (July 1) trade talks heated up. We didn’t feel (in July) we were getting the return for an Erik Karlsson-type of player. At this point, we definitely feel we got a very good return and six pieces that could end up being eight.”

Pierre Dorion September 13, 2018

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Well yeah, but that doesn’t mean the Sens this year are better off without than with last year’s version of EK.

We'll never know, as he's a Shark now.

It's time to get past this trade, and to start looking forward, even though there are going to be some tough days, months ahead.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

We'll never know, as he's a Shark now.

It's time to get past this trade, and to start looking forward, even though there are going to be some tough days, months ahead.

I think we know. He’s one of the best d-men of all time.

And I don’t want the fanbase to ever get past this. Melnyk shouldn’t go a minute without hearing about it.

 

[Alex1234]

Then explain why he was not traded, when his value was at it's highest, in February?

Managment's statements, after the trade, indicate that your belief that they decided to trade him prior to the deadline, is mistaken ..... that is unless you can find a quote to back it up?

Yes, they listened to offers from other teams, prior to deadline, but they did not decide to trade him, and he remained a Senator until Training Camp.

“These things are never easy, we know we’re in a rebuild now and we know this is the best thing in the plan and the rebuild for us to have success. We felt that now is the time to trade Erik Karlsson. This has been in the works for a while. We talked to multiple teams around draft time and after (July 1) trade talks heated up. We didn’t feel (in July) we were getting the return for an Erik Karlsson-type of player. At this point, we definitely feel we got a very good return and six pieces that could end up being eight.”

Pierre Dorion September 13, 2018

Because they wanted to sell more season tickets maybe?
Because they didn't feel they were getting the return of EK type of player?(like around draft time)
Listen, it was said by management around feb 20th that they were going to trade him
That was proven and discussed
Bobby said he thought he and EK were gone at the TDL
Dorion said rebuilt was decided in feb and the most return would be acquire by trading EK
I mean ,come on, you're asking for explanation but you quote lies as facts to refute the notion
Believe what you want but stop posting that non-sense
Everybody knows the truth except you it seems

 

[Xspyrit]

TFW a Sens fan that has watched EK play on this team for years can make a case for us being better this season without him.

Better than last season, yes. Better or as good as seasons before (since 2011)? probably not.

Have you watched the games last season? EK was terrible defensively for most of the season. IMO, the 2 main reasons (outside of coaching) for such a bad season last year were EK + Anderson, they f***ed the bed on so many occasions.

 

[Micklebot]

Better than last season, yes. Better or as good as seasons before (since 2011)? probably not.

Have you watched the games last season? EK was terrible defensively for most of the season. IMO, the 2 main reasons (outside of coaching) for such a bad season last year were EK + Anderson, they ****ed the bed on so many occasions.

Karlsson was bad last year for him, but even so, he was still easily the best dman on the team that year. There may have been some individual games where that wasn't the case and somebody else had a better game, but come on. The notion that the team last year would have done better had Karlsson not been there, or that the team this year would be worse with him playing at last years level, is patently absurd.

Was his not playing up to his usual standard one of the biggest reasons we were bad? Absolutely, but that's very different than the team being better off without him.

 

[Xspyrit]

Karlsson was bad last year for him, but even so, he was still easily the best dman on the team that year. There may have been some individual games where that wasn't the case and somebody else had a better game, but come on. The notion that the team last year would have done better had Karlsson not been there, or that the team this year would be worse with him playing at last years level, is patently absurd.

Was his not playing up to his usual standard one of the biggest reasons we were bad? Absolutely, but that's very different than the team being better off without him.

OK but it's not what I said, like not even close

Always look at the initial post that was quoted. The poster said "Sens fan... can make a case for us being better this season without him"

I said being better (or even as good) than 28-43-11, 67 pts, you can absolutely make a case.

But being better than (in order since 2011-12) 92, 96 (pro rated), 88, 99, 85 and 98 pts (and playoffs runs), yeah very unlikely.

I hope it is more clear.

 

[Acidrain66]

I think I get what you mean,

Karlsson was terrible for most of last year, wasn't himself. Anyone can admit that who watched him, and I can see how clearly in retrospect Karlsson wasn't getting along with management or very many players last season so it might be best (if hypothetically he were to repeat the same performance as last season) to trade him and let the team grow together this season.

If he is healthy then his strengths on the ice would outweigh any negative impact I would assume. However I don't know this for sure, so maybe he had to go either way.

To me, it also feels like a huge distraction is gone. Whomever is to blame or not blame, we rebooted and if it takes ten rebuilds to win one cup then that is how we will get it done.

You say 10 ?? Lol good luck waiting in your rocking chair

 

[Micklebot]

OK but it's not what I said, like not even close

But it's what the thread you responded to was about. Somebody claimed that to be the case, another person questioned it as absurd, then you responded talking about how bad Karlsson was. If nothing else, you implied that the original claim wasn't as outlandish as L'Av was suggesting.

I mean, if your point was that the best player on the team playing more poorly than he has since 2011 (which btw, I'd say 2013-14 was on a similar level, but I digress) would have an impact on the performance of the team? Sure, I think everyone is on board there. But, you called out L'Av going so far as to ask if he watched last season. Pretty sure he knows Karlsson had a rough year.

 

[Acidrain66]

Better than last season, yes. Better or as good as seasons before (since 2011)? probably not.

Have you watched the games last season? EK was terrible defensively for most of the season. IMO, the 2 main reasons (outside of coaching) for such a bad season last year were EK + Anderson, they ****ed the bed on so many occasions.

It happens when you lost a trusted partner in Methot...

 

[Viletho]

Meh Karlsson was still good Karlsson with the puck. It won't change anytime soon.

But he was really bad without the puck. I can't believe a player if his status in the league can be puck watching like he was doing. That's defence 101. You have tobe aware of all player om the ice. He was more aware of his surrounding in 2016-2017 than last year. That was not because of his injury. That's def. Awareness.

Now, Karlsson was by far our best dman overall. Not even close.

A case can be made we could have more point than last year. But it won't be easy unless their is a progression in term of team play. In the past, it was givd it to Karlsson.

What is for sure, the PP seems to have change. The puck is less at the point and more down near the goal line.

Last year PP was more about giving the puck to karlsson then Hoffman. Now it might look like a team PP rather than Karlsson's PP. Let's wait and see.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yeah Vprime, one thing I think will improve this year is the PP. Not as predictable and less hesitation hopefully. However the PK without Pageau (and EK) might be terrible. However, Tierney might be able to replace Pageau killing penalties.

But it's what the thread you responded to was about. Somebody claimed that to be the case, another person questioned it as absurd, then you responded talking about how bad Karlsson was. If nothing else, you implied that the original claim wasn't as outlandish as L'Av was suggesting.

I mean, if your point was that the best player on the team playing more poorly than he has since 2011 (which btw, I'd say 2013-14 was on a similar level, but I digress) would have an impact on the performance of the team? Sure, I think everyone is on board there. But, you called out L'Av going so far as to ask if he watched last season. Pretty sure he knows Karlsson had a rough year.

Ok probably some misunderstanding. I'm not saying I agree or not with the initial poster, I just wanted to add to the discussion that I think you could absolutely make a case for the team to be better than last year (67 pts) without Karlsson. I also made the nuance that it's very unlikely that they could do as well or better than what they have in years prior with EK (85+ pts in 6 straight seasons)

Also, do you mean Karlsson was sub-par in 2013-14? I remember that Ek had a sub par season for his standards along the way but don't remember which year it was. Would make sense that it would be 2013-14 as it was the season after the "Cooke incident"

It happens when you lost a trusted partner in Methot...

You're totally right here and if it was not sufficient, EK was also coming back from a major foot surgery that made him miss training camp so it probably made it pretty hard for him to play at his usual level. I'm not saying that it's not totally understandable why EK would have a sub par year.

The expansion draft really didn't help but I can't understand why the team wouldn't give an asset to Vegas to NOT take Methot or send an asset to get him back from Dallas after he was traded for Dylan Ferguson (meh goalie prospect) and a 2020 2nd round pick

Finally, EK injuries are certainly a reason for concern, but I hope they didn't just concluded that he was not worth re-signing to a lucrative contract based on solely last year. But even then, I'm not a doctor and I haven't evaluated Karlsson's foot.

 

[UnHappyDude]

Uh, the Senators finished 30th, in a 31 team league.

I'm going to say that if the Senators of this season, finish higher, than 30th, this season without EK65, that the Sens of this season, without EK65, are better than last seasons Sens with EK65.

This is a great example of a logical fallacy! I will share with my students

 

[Micklebot]

Ok probably some misunderstanding. I'm not saying I agree or not with the initial poster, I just wanted to add to the discussion that I think you could absolutely make a case for the team to be better than last year (67 pts) without Karlsson. I also made the nuance that it's very unlikely that they could do as well or better than what they have in years prior with EK (85+ pts in 6 straight seasons)

Fair enough. Not sure how the team could be top 67 points by removing their leading scorer, even if he wasn't up to par defensively, when it would mean giving one of Oduya, Claesson or Harpur those mins given that Ceci and Phaneuf were already maxed out and Wideman and Boro were injured.

Also, do you mean Karlsson was sub-par in 2013-14? I remember that Ek had a sub par season for his standards along the way but don't remember which year it was. Would make sense that it would be 2013-14 as it was the season after the "Cooke incident"

Yes, 2013-14, Karlsson was coming off the surgery and wasn't skating properly till sometime in the new year, 74 pts but terrible defensively. You could make a case this past season was worse, but he was far less insulated, as Methot was still there as his partner instead of playing with Oduya and he had support on the PP with Spezza inflating his production (also a competent PP system in general).

 

[Xspyrit]

Fair enough. Not sure how the team could be top 67 points by removing their leading scorer, even if he wasn't up to par defensively, when it would mean giving one of Oduya, Claesson or Harpur those mins given that Ceci and Phaneuf were already maxed out and Wideman and Boro were injured.

28-43-11 isn't that hard to beat lol but I know what you mean. In a mathematical exercise, it's pretty logical but hockey is a plethora of factors and not just one player.

- goaltending (last year, we probably had the worst duo. Just average NHL goaltending would do a major difference)
- coaching (Boucher's system became obsolete, Boucher has to "reinvent" himself)
- team chemistry and cohesion (partly due to coaching, locker room problems can also affect this. I can't stress enough about how much hockey is a team sport, you have to play as a 5-men unit and last year was terrible in that regard. 2016-17 was much better)
- health (key injuries, last year those players were affected because of it : Stone, Ryan, Wideman, EK, Smith)
- progression of players who haven't peaked yet (ex : Dzingel, Chabot, Tierney, etc?)
- declining players (not many guys over 30 so hopefully not a problem)
- youth injection (Chlapik? Tkachuk? White? Wolanin? etc? Any breakout like Stone or Hoffman in 2014-15?)
- competition : what happens to other teams? Injuries? increase vs decrease in performance? etc)
- many other factors like team toughness, leadership, fan support, etc

So basically, the state of the defense compared to last year is :

Chabot 2018-19 vs Chabot 2017-18 (need a huge progression)
Ceci 2018-19 vs Ceci 2017-18 (need a progression but the problem is still that he is being asked to do too much)
Wolanin vs Phaneuf (Wolanin is a much better skater but doesn't have Dion's experience, hopefully it's still an upgrade)
Wideman 2018-19 vs Wideman/Claesson 2017-18 (Wideman missed 66 games)
Borowiecki 2018-19 vs Borowiecki/Oduya 2017-18 (Boro missed 30 games)
Harpur 2018-19 vs Harpur 2017-18 (really need to pick it up, and go back to his 2016-17 level)

Obviously the gigantic problem is DeMelo vs Karlsson. That is why I still don't understand why the package for Karlsson didn't include young D-men with potential. Why not a 24 y/o D-man on Tierney level? Why not prospects like Balcers and Norris? Or at least one. I guess they could get some D-men with the picks but how long will it take before they can help?

I wish the trade would have been EK for Miller + Theodore + Vegas 1st

Chabot-Miller
Theodore-Ceci
Wolanin-Wideman
Harpur/Boro

Now that would be a potentially good D-core, very good puck-movement.

Heck, just getting Braun instead of DeMelo would have helped a lot (but older and MORE expensive, so it's a no go for Melnyk), he is a bit similar to Methot.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think we know. He’s one of the best d-men of all time.

And I don’t want the fanbase to ever get past this. Melnyk shouldn’t go a minute without hearing about it.

EK65 has been traded!
He is no more!
He has ceased to be a Senator!
His time as a Sen has expired and gone to meet the Sharks!
He's a stiff!
Bereft of life, he rests in San Jose!
His metabolic processes are now history!
He's off the twig!
He's kicked the bucket of pucks!
He's shuffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' Teal choir!
He's an EX Senator!