Your DRW ‘hot takes’

[Bench]

Hakan Andersson is just an ordinary scout who gets credit for Jim Devellano and Ken Holland having the foresight to invest heavily in European scouting before everyone else. Detroit's success at drafting Europeans conveniently dried up right around the same time that many other teams started heavily scouting in Europe. Detroit's competitive advantage was never Hakan's "super-scout" abilities, but rather the fact that they found an area that was undervalued by the NHL as a whole.

Oof. This one is pretty hot.

Hakan was hitting late round picks well after everyone else caught up. This wasn't like plucking Lidstrom back in the day. Hakan was directly responsible for guys like Franzen, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Nyquist just to name a few. Oh right, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg. His ability to find NHL talent with picks that traditionally yield nothing kept the Red Wings relevant longer than they should have been and brought them another Cup.

There were other scouts out there doing the same job as him. He was just better. It wasn't some magic pill the Red Wings put more money into.

Hakan, more than anyone, will tell you that you need luck for these later round guys to develop as you want. But he absolutely has an eye for the raw fundamentals you need to be an NHL regular.

The 2019 draft is was the first time in ages his primary scouting region was the emphasis of the first few rounds. Yzerman is going to continue to lean on him, so we better hope he's not "ordinary" as you suggest.

 

[Winger98]

Oh, I misunderstood your previous post and I'm realizing it here.

You're saying that the players Holland drafted may not fit the roster Yzerman wants to build, not that Holland is simply better suited for the rebuild process.

So essentially, you're proposing Yzerman is walking into a half finished kitchen remodel and going, "Welp, we gotta redo the new cabinets and counter-tops again."

If he doesn't like the cabinets they are easier to tear out before the flooring is in. I think Holland would have been a safer bet in any rebuild, though. That's not a knock on Yzerman, he did a good job in Tampa, but Holland was putting together some nice pieces here and I think the guy has a good eye for talent.

Also, assuming it is true that he wanted to rebuild earlier but ownership told him no, it feels like he sort of deserved the opportunity to show he could do it when they finally green lighted the idea.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If he doesn't like the cabinets they are easier to tear out before the flooring is in. I think Holland would have been a safer bet in any rebuild, though. That's not a knock on Yzerman, he did a good job in Tampa, but Holland was putting together some nice pieces here and I think the guy has a good eye for talent.

Also, assuming it is true that he wanted to rebuild earlier but ownership told him no, it feels like he sort of deserved the opportunity to show he could do it when they finally green lighted the idea.

They are pretty similar guys, I think they like the same kind of players for the most part. I am not that worried about Yzerman carrying on the process, I worry about people that think there is a magic wand in general during this process. Yzerman keeps cautioning people on it, kind of like Holland cautioned people you wouldn't like it once you got here and voila look how angry everyone is. But I think Yzerman can build on the team Holland began, he even benefits from a certain part of the fan-base that became jaded enough not to except realistic truths.

Almost in a lot of ways Holland went out and got the bigger more competitive players that have haunted the teams Stevie built in Tampa. I think he was rightly seeing that evolution in Tampa it took him a second but I think that is likely a lesson he learned. Stevie just needs to sprinkle in more skill high motor guys. But I still like a lot of the young pieces on this team they are useful hockey players and Yzerman has been around the game long enough to value a few of those guys a decent amount. He also gets the excuse to throw a few out without people going nuts. I was surprised when he got Holland to circle back on AA, Kenny must have really believed AA turned the corner in the 30 goal year and bet wrong in my opinion. His first instinct when targeting him was right and that his protege did the same thing should have been a clear warning sign. I think he just needs depth scoring, but that was a bizarre move for me out of Holland in Edmonton, liked most of what he did outside of that this year. Both guys are kind of methodical builders, I don't think this will be that large of a factor.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Yzerman will be able to build a contending team, and whether they win the cup or not the team will become bad at some point and we will have similar arguments that we had when Holland was GM during the waning era of the last contending Wings.

 

[Bench]

Also, assuming it is true that he wanted to rebuild earlier but ownership told him no, it feels like he sort of deserved the opportunity to show he could do it when they finally green lighted the idea.

Holland definitely gets a raw deal for that. I'm sure we've all had to turn in work the way the boss wanted that we would have preferred another way. Makes you wonder what the team would look like today if he had been given carte blanche.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Mantha and 4OA for 1OA because Crosby didn't really like Rimouski.

Where.Do.I.sign??

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Larkin is our best player, is a "star" but not a superstar and will never be.
If Seider busts we are basically f***ed.
Zadina and Veleno determine our future.

 

[Mlotek]

Holland's last 5 first rounders are Svechnikov, Cholowski, Rasmussen, Zadina, and Broberg. That is with 3 picks in the top 10. Outside of Zadina, not the most appealing group of players in the world.

I'll take my chances on Yzerman. (FWIW - I do think I had more of an issue with Tyler Wright as opposed to Holland... but for now that is a packaged deal is seems)

Wasn't Veleno a late 1st round pick?

 

[odin1981]

Wasn't Veleno a late 1st round pick?

Think so or a early second.

 

[MBH]

His reign at WC for USA hasn't been impressive.


I recall the nickname of Blashcock when he first took over as all he could do was parrot Babcock his mentor.
The rumour of him losing the when playoff rolled around.

Yes his first year with Detroit he still had Datsyuk. Who had his worst offensive production per game since his rookie season, but we can chalk that up to old age and injuries. Zetterberg also had his worst offensive production per game since his rookie season. I think that was when Blash anchored Zetterberg with Abdelkader for the whole year.

Abdelkader did have his last 40 point year under Blash, so big accomplishment there.

Makes me wonder if Blash coaching helped sway Datsyuk into going home.


Tatar also saw an immediate decline in production when Blashill arrived. Somehow magically regained it in Montreal.


There is also the classic Blashill blown 3rd period lead. I mean the team wasn't great, but they often didn't bother showing up in the 3rd when having a lead. Actually, there are many times the team never bothered showing up to start a game either. Blash at providing motivation isn't that good.


But you are right, the team did decline. And he implement systems to get the least out of what he had left. You can still suck and have an enjoyable product on the ice. Instead of the infuriating mess we currently have.


Keep in mind, the fans started questioning when Blashill is going to get fired in 2016!

f*** Blashill.
All of Babcock's bullshit with none of the winning.

 

[MBH]

In my darkest timeline I feel like this current era ain't ever winning shit. I hot take to myself, "This Larkin-led era will never get past the 1st round of the playoffs..."

With 31 teams in the NHL, it could be a long, long time before we ever win a cup again.

 

[FabricDetails]

Oof. This one is pretty hot.

Hakan was hitting late round picks well after everyone else caught up. This wasn't like plucking Lidstrom back in the day. Hakan was directly responsible for guys like Franzen, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Nyquist just to name a few. Oh right, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg. His ability to find NHL talent with picks that traditionally yield nothing kept the Red Wings relevant longer than they should have been and brought them another Cup.

There were other scouts out there doing the same job as him. He was just better. It wasn't some magic pill the Red Wings put more money into.

Hakan, more than anyone, will tell you that you need luck for these later round guys to develop as you want. But he absolutely has an eye for the raw fundamentals you need to be an NHL regular.

The 2019 draft is was the first time in ages his primary scouting region was the emphasis of the first few rounds. Yzerman is going to continue to lean on him, so we better hope he's not "ordinary" as you suggest.

I'm honestly not sure how hot of a take that is.

If we're looking at third round and above, which some say are the picks you really need to get right, he's co-signed on quite a bit of misses over the past 15 years (Lofberg, Larsson, Axelsson, Andersson, Nestrasil, Saarijarvi, not sure if Jurco, Frk count) but he's also had a hand in some hits, most of which don't actually play with the Wings anymore (Tatar, Jarnkrok, Janmark-Nylen, Hronek, not sure if Zadina counts). And then several are TBD (not sure if Svechnikov counts, Lindstrom, Kotkansalo, Berggren, 2019). The fair question here - Is his production as a scout better/worse than other scouts in the NHL? I honestly have no idea. I listed a lot of misses but the draft is ridden with misses for everyone.

At the very least I read that Hakan's getting more help from but I'm blanking on the names. Not sure if Lidstrom, Zetterberg and Kronwall are doing any scouting.

 

[Winger98]

They are pretty similar guys, I think they like the same kind of players for the most part. I am not that worried about Yzerman carrying on the process, I worry about people that think there is a magic wand in general during this process. Yzerman keeps cautioning people on it, kind of like Holland cautioned people you wouldn't like it once you got here and voila look how angry everyone is. But I think Yzerman can build on the team Holland began, he even benefits from a certain part of the fan-base that became jaded enough not to except realistic truths.

Almost in a lot of ways Holland went out and got the bigger more competitive players that have haunted the teams Stevie built in Tampa. I think he was rightly seeing that evolution in Tampa it took him a second but I think that is likely a lesson he learned. Stevie just needs to sprinkle in more skill high motor guys. But I still like a lot of the young pieces on this team they are useful hockey players and Yzerman has been around the game long enough to value a few of those guys a decent amount. He also gets the excuse to throw a few out without people going nuts. I was surprised when he got Holland to circle back on AA, Kenny must have really believed AA turned the corner in the 30 goal year and bet wrong in my opinion. His first instinct when targeting him was right and that his protege did the same thing should have been a clear warning sign. I think he just needs depth scoring, but that was a bizarre move for me out of Holland in Edmonton, liked most of what he did outside of that this year. Both guys are kind of methodical builders, I don't think this will be that large of a factor.

They are similar guys, and I'm not saying Yzerman can't build a team, just that he's not as...connected (?) to the pieces in place as Holland would have been, and doesn't necessarily share the same vision. Even if they like the same type of players, they can disagree on the quality of the players themselves. I know both of us have openly questioned how long of a rebuild Yzerman is actually looking at, and what pieces he is seeing as part his actual foundation versus what pieces are nice but maybe not necessarily long term nice. I don't think we have that same concern if Holland was still here.

And I get the AA move. What did it take to acquire the guy? Gagner & two 2nds? What is the payoff if Athanasiou hits? And what will likely be the re-sign cost? With how lousy Edmonton is set up, Holland needs to try to find some lightening in the bottle. He's not going to find someone with a similar upside at a similar cost in free agency, and trading for someone who would be more of a sure thing would also cost significantly more. I think Holland is going to limp through another season as best he can, then we're going to start seeing some real changes there. Russel, Larsson, and RNH all will have contracts come up. Bouchard, Broberg, and Samourakov will be knocking on the door. Neal could be bought out with a minimal penalty. And they'll have Lafreniere from this year's draft.

 

[izlez]

Over Yzerman's duration in Tampa, count the teams that averaged more points during the regular season. Now count the teams that had more playoff wins.

Unless you're of the mindset that a team can't be any good until they win the Cup, what exactly is your measure of roster building?

Count the number of hall-of-famers that were on the team when he got the job.

Now, count the number of times his team won zero playoff games in a season. That's a FAR cry from just "not winning the cup" (As no one is blaming him for the wings being bad this season, I'd argue that the 2010-2011 TB team was not his, and the 2018-2019 TB team was his... but that is certainly up for interpretation)

 

[raymond23]

Is this a hot take considering one was a top 10 pick and one was nearly a second round pick? I guess it could be by the amount of souring that happened on Rasmussen.

I think right now they both project to be kind of that same type/role of player. Play up and down the middle six, at all 3 forward positions. Probably make their biggest impact on special teams (Ras on PP, Veleno on PK). Both will likely be known as character and effort players more than they will be known for having a boatload of skill.

I like them as support players with more upside than our recent support players (like Helm, Abby, Nielsen, etc.) and feel that the production will follow with the right scoring depth around them.

Yeah I think that, removing draft position from the equation, Veleno is viewed as a better player / prospect in general. Whether it be on this board or in prospect rankings. Rasmussen seems forgotten at times around here.

Realistically, your projections are the most likely scenario for both. Let’s hope for our sake that one of them booms into a legit top six player. I will say, after watching Rasmussen in GR, he seems much more capable and comfortable down the middle compared to playing on the wing.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Oof. This one is pretty hot.

Hakan was hitting late round picks well after everyone else caught up. This wasn't like plucking Lidstrom back in the day. Hakan was directly responsible for guys like Franzen, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Nyquist just to name a few. Oh right, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg. His ability to find NHL talent with picks that traditionally yield nothing kept the Red Wings relevant longer than they should have been and brought them another Cup.

There were other scouts out there doing the same job as him. He was just better. It wasn't some magic pill the Red Wings put more money into.

Hakan, more than anyone, will tell you that you need luck for these later round guys to develop as you want. But he absolutely has an eye for the raw fundamentals you need to be an NHL regular.

The 2019 draft is was the first time in ages his primary scouting region was the emphasis of the first few rounds. Yzerman is going to continue to lean on him, so we better hope he's not "ordinary" as you suggest.

I'll second this. Since the Tyler Wright era (2013 to 2019) the only picks beyond the 2nd round for Detroit that became regulars were Mattias Janmark-Nylen (Hakan pick), whom we traded for Erik Cole, and Christopher Ehn (Hakan pick). Dominic Turgeon (63rd OA in 2014) has only played 6 NHL games and looks to be a career AHL 3rd liner. Nobody drafted from the CHL or USHL after the 2nd round has made it to the Wings since 2012. (Athanasiou) The majority of our late round picks during this timeframe went to CHL and USHL players with the exception of the 2016 draft where 3 Swedes were taken late. Filip Larsson was the best of the bunch but a terrible injury derailed his career.

I'm hoping that if we go back to leaning on Hakan Andersson that we'll find more gems. 2018 and 2019 drafts looked to have high value prospects in the 2nd rounds or later with Berggren (If he can stay healthy) Johansson, Tuomisto, Grewe, Soderblom, and Gustav Berglund that were Hakan picks. Of this group I think that at least 3 of them have a good chance of making it to the NHL.

 

[Retire91]

Detroit finishes 3rd from last and gets moved to 7th pick

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Detroit finishes 3rd from last and gets moved to 7th pick

I mean, it's more likely we finish last and move back to 4th again. But us moving back 3 spots in the draft is pretty likely. I think in the chart that's floated around here since the draft lottery it shows that Detroit has been consistently screwed by the lottery more than any single team.

 

[Rzombo4 prez]

Oof. This one is pretty hot.

Hakan was hitting late round picks well after everyone else caught up. This wasn't like plucking Lidstrom back in the day. Hakan was directly responsible for guys like Franzen, Kronwall, Ericsson, and Nyquist just to name a few. Oh right, and Datsyuk and Zetterberg. His ability to find NHL talent with picks that traditionally yield nothing kept the Red Wings relevant longer than they should have been and brought them another Cup.

There were other scouts out there doing the same job as him. He was just better. It wasn't some magic pill the Red Wings put more money into.

Hakan, more than anyone, will tell you that you need luck for these later round guys to develop as you want. But he absolutely has an eye for the raw fundamentals you need to be an NHL regular.

The 2019 draft is was the first time in ages his primary scouting region was the emphasis of the first few rounds. Yzerman is going to continue to lean on him, so we better hope he's not "ordinary" as you suggest.

I have said this before and will say it again. We do not know what the Wings' draft list looked like and do not know if they were consciously targeting Europe. I would also point out that Hakan is not our only European scout.

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Yeah I think that, removing draft position from the equation, Veleno is viewed as a better player / prospect in general. Whether it be on this board or in prospect rankings. Rasmussen seems forgotten at times around here.

Realistically, your projections are the most likely scenario for both. Let’s hope for our sake that one of them booms into a legit top six player. I will say, after watching Rasmussen in GR, he seems much more capable and comfortable down the middle compared to playing on the wing.

I feel like people are down on Rasmussen for reasons that they don't even understand. There is still lots of potential there to be a very good NHL player. He was kind of a victim of a really dumb NHL/CHL agreement in his D+2 year and then was injured this past season. I very much believe he can be a consistent 20+ goal scorer who is excellent from the net front on the PP. That's not terrible for where he was selected. Many good players have had rougher starts to their pro career than he has. There's no need to panic or label him a bust yet.

 

[Bench]

I have said this before and will say it again. We do not know what the Wings' draft list looked like and do not know if they were consciously targeting Europe. I would also point out that Hakan is not our only European scout.

Very true it's a team effort. Everyone I named is someone that was IDed as a Hakan lead pick in various interviews.

 

[jkutswings]

I feel like people are down on Rasmussen for reasons that they don't even understand. There is still lots of potential there to be a very good NHL player. He was kind of a victim of a really dumb NHL/CHL agreement in his D+2 year and then was injured this past season. I very much believe he can be a consistent 20+ goal scorer who is excellent from the net front on the PP. That's not terrible for where he was selected. Many good players have had rougher starts to their pro career than he has. There's no need to panic or label him a bust yet.

Personally, I'm not panicking whatsoever about Rasmussen. I think he stands an excellent chance at carving out a career not unlike Tomas Holmstrom, albeit with a different skill set.

My disappointment is that, on a roster starved for elite players, that's not what I hope for with a top ten pick.

I'm not worried about whether he fulfills his potential. He just has a role I wasn't interested in with that particular resource. My frustrations are directed at the decision makers, not the player taken.

 

[Henkka]

Personally, I'm not panicking whatsoever about Rasmussen. I think he stands an excellent chance at carving out a career not unlike Tomas Holmstrom, albeit with a different skill set.

My disappointment is that, on a roster starved for elite players, that's not what I hope for with a top ten pick.

I'm not worried about whether he fulfills his potential. He just has a role I wasn't interested in with that particular resource. My frustrations are directed at the decision makers, not the player taken.

In many succesful rebuilds, you draft the skill forwards last. Complimentary players and defencemen are drafted first, because they will peak later. Those elite skill guys will peak earlier, and they all will peak at same time. Then the timing is right.

That's what will happen with Rasmussen. He will be 26-27 year old physical beast, when some 21-22-year old elite skill center will reach his prime.

There was nothing wrong picking Rasmussen on that position on that year. It was a weak skill forward draft. When the overall skill level was low, you can go for size. Then you can go after smaller skill guys, because you already have that size on the bank. You don't become a mediocre Montreal Canadiens with only midgets on the roster.

But, on this year at 2020, if we don't pick a skill forward from this draft (of best skill forward group for a while, maybe since 2003), then that's the biggest mistake we have done in last 10 years.

Drysdale dreamers should think twice of the big picture, how rebuilds are done. We can have our "drysdales" from other drafts, but those elite forwards aren't available every year.

 

[jkutswings]

Count the number of hall-of-famers that were on the team when he got the job.

Now, count the number of times his team won zero playoff games in a season. That's a FAR cry from just "not winning the cup" (As no one is blaming him for the wings being bad this season, I'd argue that the 2010-2011 TB team was not his, and the 2018-2019 TB team was his... but that is certainly up for interpretation)

Rather than assume anything before I responded, I checked the numbers. I used the interval of 2010-11 through 2017-18, and tallied up playoff wins each year for Tampa Bay.

Then I compared it to what I guessed would be the three best teams in the league over that same interval, in Boston, Pittsburgh, and Washington:

TB: 11 / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (swept by MON) / 14 / 11 / 0 (no playoffs) / 11 = 47 total
BOS: 16 / 3 / 14 / 7 / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (no playoffs) / 2 / 5 = 47 total
PIT: 3 / 2 / 8 / 7 / 1 / 16 / 16 / 6 = 59 total
WAS: 4 / 7 / 3 / 0 (no playoffs) / 7 / 7 / 7 / 16 = 50 total

So yes, Tampa Bay very much seems like an "all or nothing" type of performer. But Washington had a goose egg in there as well, Boston had a couple of zeroes, and when compared with unquestionably good franchises, the overall playoff wins for the time Yzerman was there stacks up fairly well.

So assuming he LEARNS from what did and did not work in Tampa Bay, I think Yzerman will do just fine as GM of the Wings.

 

[izlez]

Rather than assume anything before I responded, I checked the numbers. I used the interval of 2010-11 through 2017-18, and tallied up playoff wins each year for Tampa Bay.

Then I compared it to what I guessed would be the three best teams in the league over that same interval, in Boston, Pittsburgh, and Washington:

TB: 11 / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (swept by MON) / 14 / 11 / 0 (no playoffs) / 11 = 47 total
BOS: 16 / 3 / 14 / 7 / 0 (no playoffs) / 0 (no playoffs) / 2 / 5 = 47 total
PIT: 3 / 2 / 8 / 7 / 1 / 16 / 16 / 6 = 59 total
WAS: 4 / 7 / 3 / 0 (no playoffs) / 7 / 7 / 7 / 16 = 50 total

So yes, Tampa Bay very much seems like an "all or nothing" type of performer. But Washington had a goose egg in there as well, Boston had a couple of zeroes, and when compared with unquestionably good franchises, the overall playoff wins for the time Yzerman was there stacks up fairly well.

So assuming he LEARNS from what did and did not work in Tampa Bay, I think Yzerman will do just fine as GM of the Wings.

Now factor in that all of those other teams DID win Stanley Cups.

And factor in that Yzerman had no part in acquiring Lecavalier, St. Louis, Hedman, or Stamkos

And like I mentioned, I disagree with this time frame. He had way more to do with the 18-19 roster than the 10-11 roster. The 10-11 results are more of an indication that he took over a very good team to begin with... and then took 4 years to win a playoff game