Canucks LB
My Favourite, Gone too soon, RIP Luc, We miss you
- Oct 12, 2008
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- 29,250
Not his play style, I meant more that he seems to have no drive, passion, intensity.
Young Stars tournament
- Thread starter galiano
- Start date
Not his play style, I meant more that he seems to have no drive, passion, intensity.
WTG
December 5th
Seriously hope that Utica runs that Hutton Subban pairing in Utica they looked really good.
I've said this before but if Hutton actually played a meaner game he would be a insanely good prospect.
I've said this before but if Hutton actually played a meaner game he would be a insanely good prospect.
Pip
Registered User
Canucks LB
My Favourite, Gone too soon, RIP Luc, We miss you
- Oct 12, 2008
- 76,711
- 29,250
Pip
Registered User
For Jensen yes. Not for Petan who is still a very promising prospect that has been highly productive everywhere he's went.
VanillaCoke
Registered User
- Oct 30, 2013
- 25,362
- 11,773
Seriously doubt they are paired. Green pairs a youmg guy with a vet whenever possible.
Left/Right (example pairs based only on how they shoot)
Hutton/Biega
Pedan/Fedun
Unsigned vet, maybe Huskins?/Subban
Erhardt
McEneny
Cederholm/Sautner/Negrin to the Zoo with Negrin the first call-up, never to play above the #6 position.
If they don't sign another vet, drop Hutton and Pedan down one spot and Ehrhardt goes with Biega. McEneny and Negrin are #s 7 & 8.
Watch Subban make the NHL this year. I said that even last year he was probably good enough to play, now he's clearly better than anybody on the right side besides Tanev IMO.
StrictlyCommercial
Registered User
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
Balls Mahoney
2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
I'm one of the biggest Subban fans and believers on here. I think he's going to be a hell of a top four defenseman. But I would like him to get a season in the AHL getting top minutes and playing all situations before asking him to make the jump.
I'm pretty confident I will get to see a lot of Subban up close and personal in the Utica Aud this winter. He needs to season before being thrust into the NHL heat.
Watched all the games and you guys have a great one in Virtanen...
Lots of EDM people in town plus others pissed off tonight that McDavid not playing tomorrow...Chiarelli said it was always the plan that he plays only one game...said after the tickets were sold...
Having said that I can see why he isn't playing but it was sold as McDavids tourney...
Lots of EDM people in town plus others pissed off tonight that McDavid not playing tomorrow...Chiarelli said it was always the plan that he plays only one game...said after the tickets were sold...
Having said that I can see why he isn't playing but it was sold as McDavids tourney...
Bean in Charge
Registered User
Just spent the last few days at youngstars camp - here's my thoughts based on the viewings (oil vs canucks, jets vs canucks).
DEFENSE
54 Brisebois - C // very overall meh. I didn't really expect much (as this is really a tournament for 2nd year players or 1st rounders), but I was hoping to see a bit more creativity and smarts. I expected a high IQ defensemen. Instead I saw some very cautious and low-confidence defence. Hoping he has a good year in jr and comes back next camp with more poise.
57 Cederholm - C- // blehhhhh. The only play I remember from Cederholm the entire 1st game (he didn't play against the Jets) was a chip up the boards to clear the zone. Completely irrelevant player.
60 Hutton - B+ // I really liked Hutton's game. He was a little spastic (which I'm sure will be calmed with a year in the AHL), but you can see there's some thought to his game. He can think at a level at or above players in this tournament. I was already a Hutton fanboy and his play did nothing to temper that.
61 McEneny - A- // I thought McEneny was the best Canucks defenseman (and borderline best Canucks player). I haven't read through the game threads, but I'm guessing most posters were raving about Subban's game... and rightfully so. He was also good. But McEneny is ridiculously calm and poised. He's the patience to compliment Subban's flash and dash. I admittedly knew very little about McEneny before this tournament and had never seen him play, so he was a very pleasant surprise. I wish he had suited up for Oilers game as well so I could get a better read.
65 Neill - C- // I don't remember a single play by Neill. Not worth commenting on.
64 Olson - C+ // The few times I noticed him he was engaged in the play and looked confident in his motions. Could very well be I just missed some major blunders, but he seemed serviceable enough.
59 Sautner - D // He needs to go away. I usually feel like I'm one of the more patient posters with our players and prospects, but Sautner is the one I'm equally bewildered by. How did he get a contract? Why is he here? What did they see in him? The ONLY thing I can think of is his captaincy and character being something Benning coveted (because frankly his hockey skills and decision making leave much to be desired).
67 Subban - A- // Loved his game. As I mentioned above, he was a hair below McEneny for my opinion of best D-men on the Canucks. He makes things happen, for better or worse, every time he's on the ice. You hope that a bit of seasoning in the AHL will make better things happen more than he makes worse things happen. He also just oozes enthusiasm. You can feel the team skate a bit harder when they are near him rushing up the ice. I can definitely see him turning into a captain or assistant captain down the road. He also has a killer shot (both wrist and slapshot), and one of the few Canucks defensemen that can actually get the puck through traffic onto the net.
FORWARDS
49 Abols - B // Too bad we can't sign him (right?), cause I was pleasantly surprised by his game. Outside of that first period by Virtanen and Subban's game, Abols was really the only bright spot in a pretty dim outing against the Oil. He hustled, generated offence and didn't seem to always be on the wrong end of defensive assignments.
52 Cassels - C // I wanted more, but I've convinced myself that Cassels' game isn't suited to these types of tournaments. He's not a flashy player... not someone who aims to dangle and amaze with pure skill plays. He's a warrior who will battle and come out on top. I'm thinking (and hoping) that will translate better to the Canucks main camp as well as his season in the AHL. He was by no means bad, and managed to contain McDavid quite will in the game against the Oil... but he really didn't do much offensively.
45 Fox - C- // He's slow. So so slow. I mean you go in knowing he's a slow player, and yet you are still surprised at just how slow he is. I just don't see his game translating to anything higher than the AHL. He has some good offensive instincts, and usually is near enough all the loose puck battles in front of the net... but the second the puck transitions you might as well pretend it's a 5 on 4 because Fox wont' make it back in time.
68 Gardiner - C+ // Liked him a lot. He's shifty, has some good hands and his mind/hands are able to keep up to his feet. My one game sample size (he didn't play vs Oil) isn't enough to really say anything other than "I want to see more".
50 Gaunce - A // Probably the best Canuck. Gaunce is such an unusual player. If you focus on him, you'll see a guy plodding around at a pace similar to Fox. He doesn't really seem to make much of an impact shift by shift... he kinda glides around, throws his body a bit, breaks up a play here and then and then goes for a line change. However, when you look at the game sheet after a game he's ALWAYS managed to put up a point or two. It's remarkable. I think his hockey IQ alone will get him some games this season on the Canucks. It is really too bad he doesn't have that extra gear.
62 Labate - C // If Brisebois was the "meh" defensemen... Labate is the "meh' forward. He was there. He participated in the tournament. So there's that.
70 Martin - C // Good energy and hustle when on the ice. Nothing really stood out though.
47 McCann - B // Tough first game, much better second game. You can see the skill and smarts he possesses. His hands are incredibly quick and shifty, and I'd wager he's the best passer we had there. He also has a wicked shot... but like many of the Canuck players he just couldn't seem to get it through the traffic 95% of the time. Scored a real solid wrister against the Jets. Next year he should dominate this tournament.
79 Pettit - C- // The only times I noticed him in the Oil game were when he was making mistakes (missing checks, trying to catch up to the play, flubbing a pass etc.) I've heard positive reports of his play in Erie, so I'm hoping he just had a tough game... but right now not looking like anything for the future.
48 Shinkaruk - C // Shink looked frustrated all tournament. Hell, I felt the frustration all the way in up in the stands. He's hustling, he's battling, but nothing happens. Literally nothing. I want so badly for him to succeed, but right now he's not looking like he has the hockey sense to compete at his size level. At times he looks close to breaking out, but then a shift later he's rubbed out along the boards and you go back to realizing he might just not have it.
71 Stewart - C+ // What he does have: decent speed, incredible size, willingness to hit, willingness to fight, ability to play physical without always taking penalties. What he doesn't have: anything that will ever get him on the score sheet. Despite his black-hole offensive skills, Stewart definitely intimidated everyone every time he was on the ice. He crushed everybody he could, and he stuck up for teammates when required. I guarantee you everyone who watched him play left the game knowing who he was, and he never stuck out to me as a major liability when on the ice.
77 Virtanen - B+ // After his first period against the Oilers, it looked like Virtanen could do no wrong and might overshadow McDavid as the star of the McDavid show that was Penticton. However, he took a vicious elbow in the 2nd period of that Oilers game (I think it was the 2nd period), and just didn't look the same afterward. I don't even remember him throwing a hit in the game against the Jets. Despite that, he has incredible wheels and some serious velocity on his wrister. He also showed glimpses of hockey IQ with some heads-up passes in the offensive zone. The major problem I have with JV's game right now is that he automatically skates as fast as possible down the wing every time he gets the puck. That leaves him with only one option each time (if defended correctly) - to go around the net and attempt a warparound. I'd like to see him not always skate at 110%, and instead try taking some pace off so that he can better assess the play when going into the O-zone. Let his teammates catch up so he can utilize them. Currently Virtanen is a 1 trick pony in the offensive zone.
40 Zalewsk - B- // If this was based on just the Oilers game, he'd be a C-. However, he had a stronger outing against the Jets (as did the entire team). I thought he'd stand out a bit more considering he's already spent time in the AHL, but his hockey IQ really holds him back. He has zero ability to create time and space for himself... and instead is always scrambling to push the puck somewhere.
80 Zhukenov - C // Looks so so raw. Even just physically he looked like a boy amongst men. Despite that, he stuck out to me as one of the smarter canuck players. He tried some sneaky plays, and often the puck seemed to follow him around the ice. He needs a couple solid years in the CHL and hopefully will still fill out a bit.
GOALTENDERS
75 Whistle - A // I thought he had a fantastic game... but it could be the result of juxtaposition (as really, anyone playing following that disaster of a game vs. the oilers would look like the second coming of Dominik Hasek). Made some clutch saves to keep the lead, and really seemed calm, cool and collected in net.
76 Witt - D // I feel for the kid, as really that game shouldn't have been as much of a blowout as it was. If I recall correctly, the Canucks actually outshot the Oilers. In my mind, it was more of a 5-3 game than anything. Just seemed that EVERY bounce went the wrong way and ended up behind Witt. Eventually the entire team just seemed like they didn't trust their goalie anymore, and it all imploded. Pretty hard to get a read on a player after a stinker like that.
Now time to go read through the game day threads to see how off-base I am compared to what everyone else here thought!
DEFENSE
54 Brisebois - C // very overall meh. I didn't really expect much (as this is really a tournament for 2nd year players or 1st rounders), but I was hoping to see a bit more creativity and smarts. I expected a high IQ defensemen. Instead I saw some very cautious and low-confidence defence. Hoping he has a good year in jr and comes back next camp with more poise.
57 Cederholm - C- // blehhhhh. The only play I remember from Cederholm the entire 1st game (he didn't play against the Jets) was a chip up the boards to clear the zone. Completely irrelevant player.
60 Hutton - B+ // I really liked Hutton's game. He was a little spastic (which I'm sure will be calmed with a year in the AHL), but you can see there's some thought to his game. He can think at a level at or above players in this tournament. I was already a Hutton fanboy and his play did nothing to temper that.
61 McEneny - A- // I thought McEneny was the best Canucks defenseman (and borderline best Canucks player). I haven't read through the game threads, but I'm guessing most posters were raving about Subban's game... and rightfully so. He was also good. But McEneny is ridiculously calm and poised. He's the patience to compliment Subban's flash and dash. I admittedly knew very little about McEneny before this tournament and had never seen him play, so he was a very pleasant surprise. I wish he had suited up for Oilers game as well so I could get a better read.
65 Neill - C- // I don't remember a single play by Neill. Not worth commenting on.
64 Olson - C+ // The few times I noticed him he was engaged in the play and looked confident in his motions. Could very well be I just missed some major blunders, but he seemed serviceable enough.
59 Sautner - D // He needs to go away. I usually feel like I'm one of the more patient posters with our players and prospects, but Sautner is the one I'm equally bewildered by. How did he get a contract? Why is he here? What did they see in him? The ONLY thing I can think of is his captaincy and character being something Benning coveted (because frankly his hockey skills and decision making leave much to be desired).
67 Subban - A- // Loved his game. As I mentioned above, he was a hair below McEneny for my opinion of best D-men on the Canucks. He makes things happen, for better or worse, every time he's on the ice. You hope that a bit of seasoning in the AHL will make better things happen more than he makes worse things happen. He also just oozes enthusiasm. You can feel the team skate a bit harder when they are near him rushing up the ice. I can definitely see him turning into a captain or assistant captain down the road. He also has a killer shot (both wrist and slapshot), and one of the few Canucks defensemen that can actually get the puck through traffic onto the net.
FORWARDS
49 Abols - B // Too bad we can't sign him (right?), cause I was pleasantly surprised by his game. Outside of that first period by Virtanen and Subban's game, Abols was really the only bright spot in a pretty dim outing against the Oil. He hustled, generated offence and didn't seem to always be on the wrong end of defensive assignments.
52 Cassels - C // I wanted more, but I've convinced myself that Cassels' game isn't suited to these types of tournaments. He's not a flashy player... not someone who aims to dangle and amaze with pure skill plays. He's a warrior who will battle and come out on top. I'm thinking (and hoping) that will translate better to the Canucks main camp as well as his season in the AHL. He was by no means bad, and managed to contain McDavid quite will in the game against the Oil... but he really didn't do much offensively.
45 Fox - C- // He's slow. So so slow. I mean you go in knowing he's a slow player, and yet you are still surprised at just how slow he is. I just don't see his game translating to anything higher than the AHL. He has some good offensive instincts, and usually is near enough all the loose puck battles in front of the net... but the second the puck transitions you might as well pretend it's a 5 on 4 because Fox wont' make it back in time.
68 Gardiner - C+ // Liked him a lot. He's shifty, has some good hands and his mind/hands are able to keep up to his feet. My one game sample size (he didn't play vs Oil) isn't enough to really say anything other than "I want to see more".
50 Gaunce - A // Probably the best Canuck. Gaunce is such an unusual player. If you focus on him, you'll see a guy plodding around at a pace similar to Fox. He doesn't really seem to make much of an impact shift by shift... he kinda glides around, throws his body a bit, breaks up a play here and then and then goes for a line change. However, when you look at the game sheet after a game he's ALWAYS managed to put up a point or two. It's remarkable. I think his hockey IQ alone will get him some games this season on the Canucks. It is really too bad he doesn't have that extra gear.
62 Labate - C // If Brisebois was the "meh" defensemen... Labate is the "meh' forward. He was there. He participated in the tournament. So there's that.
70 Martin - C // Good energy and hustle when on the ice. Nothing really stood out though.
47 McCann - B // Tough first game, much better second game. You can see the skill and smarts he possesses. His hands are incredibly quick and shifty, and I'd wager he's the best passer we had there. He also has a wicked shot... but like many of the Canuck players he just couldn't seem to get it through the traffic 95% of the time. Scored a real solid wrister against the Jets. Next year he should dominate this tournament.
79 Pettit - C- // The only times I noticed him in the Oil game were when he was making mistakes (missing checks, trying to catch up to the play, flubbing a pass etc.) I've heard positive reports of his play in Erie, so I'm hoping he just had a tough game... but right now not looking like anything for the future.
48 Shinkaruk - C // Shink looked frustrated all tournament. Hell, I felt the frustration all the way in up in the stands. He's hustling, he's battling, but nothing happens. Literally nothing. I want so badly for him to succeed, but right now he's not looking like he has the hockey sense to compete at his size level. At times he looks close to breaking out, but then a shift later he's rubbed out along the boards and you go back to realizing he might just not have it.
71 Stewart - C+ // What he does have: decent speed, incredible size, willingness to hit, willingness to fight, ability to play physical without always taking penalties. What he doesn't have: anything that will ever get him on the score sheet. Despite his black-hole offensive skills, Stewart definitely intimidated everyone every time he was on the ice. He crushed everybody he could, and he stuck up for teammates when required. I guarantee you everyone who watched him play left the game knowing who he was, and he never stuck out to me as a major liability when on the ice.
77 Virtanen - B+ // After his first period against the Oilers, it looked like Virtanen could do no wrong and might overshadow McDavid as the star of the McDavid show that was Penticton. However, he took a vicious elbow in the 2nd period of that Oilers game (I think it was the 2nd period), and just didn't look the same afterward. I don't even remember him throwing a hit in the game against the Jets. Despite that, he has incredible wheels and some serious velocity on his wrister. He also showed glimpses of hockey IQ with some heads-up passes in the offensive zone. The major problem I have with JV's game right now is that he automatically skates as fast as possible down the wing every time he gets the puck. That leaves him with only one option each time (if defended correctly) - to go around the net and attempt a warparound. I'd like to see him not always skate at 110%, and instead try taking some pace off so that he can better assess the play when going into the O-zone. Let his teammates catch up so he can utilize them. Currently Virtanen is a 1 trick pony in the offensive zone.
40 Zalewsk - B- // If this was based on just the Oilers game, he'd be a C-. However, he had a stronger outing against the Jets (as did the entire team). I thought he'd stand out a bit more considering he's already spent time in the AHL, but his hockey IQ really holds him back. He has zero ability to create time and space for himself... and instead is always scrambling to push the puck somewhere.
80 Zhukenov - C // Looks so so raw. Even just physically he looked like a boy amongst men. Despite that, he stuck out to me as one of the smarter canuck players. He tried some sneaky plays, and often the puck seemed to follow him around the ice. He needs a couple solid years in the CHL and hopefully will still fill out a bit.
GOALTENDERS
75 Whistle - A // I thought he had a fantastic game... but it could be the result of juxtaposition (as really, anyone playing following that disaster of a game vs. the oilers would look like the second coming of Dominik Hasek). Made some clutch saves to keep the lead, and really seemed calm, cool and collected in net.
76 Witt - D // I feel for the kid, as really that game shouldn't have been as much of a blowout as it was. If I recall correctly, the Canucks actually outshot the Oilers. In my mind, it was more of a 5-3 game than anything. Just seemed that EVERY bounce went the wrong way and ended up behind Witt. Eventually the entire team just seemed like they didn't trust their goalie anymore, and it all imploded. Pretty hard to get a read on a player after a stinker like that.
Now time to go read through the game day threads to see how off-base I am compared to what everyone else here thought!
Balls Mahoney
2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
Great analysis, I immensely enjoyed reading it.
I agree, McEneny's stock raised mightily in my mind after that game. He looks to have developed a lot since last year and looks more confident and mature. I like his quiet defensive game and I think you're right about him being the perfect partner for Subban. Not sure what we have in him yet until we see him against NHLers but this was a very good showcase for him today.
Watching a player like Fox vs. Subban, I can't help wondering how much hockey connections and out right money goes into developing kids now. Fox was something of a long shot who showed a lot of raw skill who won a contract after dominating the WHL. There's a lot of skill there but he just seems to lack the top end development.
Subban was another long shot (even though he really wasn't) who's making a case as this team's best defensive prospect since Tanev and there's virtuallly no question he'll be a NHLer. Subban's skating and puck handling seems light years ahead of the other prospects. I can't help wondering how much of that is because of Subban getting the same training as PK and being able to afford the five figure power skating classes and personal trainers?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this. But you watch a kid like Fox who is so raw and then see a kid like Subban who's so polished and you wonder why that difference is there?
I agree, McEneny's stock raised mightily in my mind after that game. He looks to have developed a lot since last year and looks more confident and mature. I like his quiet defensive game and I think you're right about him being the perfect partner for Subban. Not sure what we have in him yet until we see him against NHLers but this was a very good showcase for him today.
Watching a player like Fox vs. Subban, I can't help wondering how much hockey connections and out right money goes into developing kids now. Fox was something of a long shot who showed a lot of raw skill who won a contract after dominating the WHL. There's a lot of skill there but he just seems to lack the top end development.
Subban was another long shot (even though he really wasn't) who's making a case as this team's best defensive prospect since Tanev and there's virtuallly no question he'll be a NHLer. Subban's skating and puck handling seems light years ahead of the other prospects. I can't help wondering how much of that is because of Subban getting the same training as PK and being able to afford the five figure power skating classes and personal trainers?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this. But you watch a kid like Fox who is so raw and then see a kid like Subban who's so polished and you wonder why that difference is there?
Last edited:
me2
Go ahead foot
sounds about right, thought Shink looked better against the jets though, showed a bit of flair at times.
WTG
December 5th
The guy who has most exceeded expectations for me has been J. Subban. His defensive game and strength look much better than last camp. I'm really intrigued to see what he can do in the main camp and in some exhibition games.
Brisebois got some major praise from coach Green. He was very impressed.
Brisebois got some major praise from coach Green. He was very impressed.
Best news out of this camp is that we look to have two legitimate defensive prospects in Subban and Hutton who should be able to step into the AHL and play regularly as rookie pros. Both have been very impressive.
Don't get the praise for Brisebois. He's obviously one of the youngest players here so gets some slack, but he's looked small, timid, overmatched defensively, and hasn't shown his alleged mobility or quality outlet pass much as all. If this was an undrafted tryout playing the same way, he'd be quickly labeled a bum and cut.
Has nothing to do with the Lack trade. That's not even remotely his fault, and I want him to be a good player for this organization. He just hasn't been good at all.
Mr. Canucklehead
Kitimat Canuck
While he hasn't been particularly good, there are some good skills that have shone through that - with time and development - should make him a legitimate prospect. He's got a ways to go, but I think there's something there to work with.
I agree with your thoughts on Hutton and Subban. Very heartened at the talent they've displayed thus far.
As we prepare for the final game today, thoughts on who makes (and doesn't make) the cut for the main camp in Prince George? My guesses;
Going to Prince George:
(D) Ben Hutton
(D) Jordan Subban
(D) Evan McEneny
(D) Tate Olson
(D) Guillaume Brisebois
(F) Cole Cassels
(F) Brendan Gaunce
(F) Jared McCann
(F) Hunter Shinkaruk
(F) Mackenze Stewart
(F) Jake Virtanen
(F) Dimitry Zhukenov
Going to Utica (for AHL Camp):
(G) Clay Witt
(G) Jackson Whistle
(D) Ashton Sautner
(D) Anton Cederholm
(F) Dane Fox
(F) Joe LaBate
(F) Mike Zalewski
Back to Junior:
(D) Carl Neill
(F) Kyle Pettit
Released:
(F) Jonathan Martin
(F) Reid Gardiner
* I see Brisebois going to camp only because he was a high pick and the experience of being around the NHL guys should be beneficial for him. His play has not merited much to this stage. Olson has been OK if not outstanding, but given that he plays his junior hockey in PG, I can see him getting a look at the camp since its being held there. Goodwill for some of the Cougars fans as well.
Balls Mahoney
2015-2016 HF Premier League World Champion
Maybe I'm an incurable optimist but I'm feeling pretty good about this tournament. I think there's legitimately six or seven players on the Canucks' Young Stars roster that have good potential to play in the NHL.
Subban and Hutton both look like they'll be NHL caliber defensemen with McEneny quietly showing an outside chance as well.
Virtanen is showing that he has a NHL game although it's going to take him awhile before he adapts to the pro game. I think McCann looks to be a very good middle six center and I think Cassels looks like a very good bottom six center. Zhukenov also is showing talent. Shinkaruk is showing flashes. Gaunce has made a case as arguably the best Canucks' forward of the tournament.
I don't like to definitively say what potential a prospect holds until we see them against professional NHLers but so far I'm relatively optimistic with our prospect pool.
Too bad it's unlikely that Reid Gardner will get a contract. I like that kid's game. He's no Curtis Valk but he seems like he could be an asset to the organization.
Subban and Hutton both look like they'll be NHL caliber defensemen with McEneny quietly showing an outside chance as well.
Virtanen is showing that he has a NHL game although it's going to take him awhile before he adapts to the pro game. I think McCann looks to be a very good middle six center and I think Cassels looks like a very good bottom six center. Zhukenov also is showing talent. Shinkaruk is showing flashes. Gaunce has made a case as arguably the best Canucks' forward of the tournament.
I don't like to definitively say what potential a prospect holds until we see them against professional NHLers but so far I'm relatively optimistic with our prospect pool.
Too bad it's unlikely that Reid Gardner will get a contract. I like that kid's game. He's no Curtis Valk but he seems like he could be an asset to the organization.
Mr. Canucklehead
Kitimat Canuck
I agree with you; I would add Gaunce as well. He reminds me a bit of Chris Higgins, actually. He's not a flashy, high event player, but he's built solidly, doesn't shy away from dirty areas, and has a sneaky shot and solid two-way game.
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