Post-Game Talk: You lose 100% of the games you don't win - Michael Scott

[Crymson]

If you think the criticism is a broken record then by all means point out all the great moves Ken Holland has made over the past 4-5 years.

Well, let's see: Tatar, Almquist, Mrazek, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Athanasiou, and Mantha. Jarnkrok, too, given that we did get a return for him. Apparently it's easy to forget that drafting, too, is a rather large part of management, though I can't really fathom why; the Wings have for a long while gotten by on their drafted players. It's also seemingly very easy to forget that this team has remained competitive. I am of course aware that 20-plus years of success has thoroughly spoiled this fanbase, to the degree that merely being competitive equates with unforgivable failure. The fans of this team surely cannot market in perspective.

Though this will undoubtedly fall mostly on deaf ears, I think it should be emphasized that imperfect does not mean incompetent. There are quite a few incompetent general managers in this league, but Holland's mistakes do not make him one of them. And yes, this comes from someone who was outraged at Cleary's return to the organization.

That said, please define "great moves" and point out all of those that have been pulled off by other GMs during that period.

 

[Flowah]

I see your entire list is drafting.

I have no problems admitting Holland has been spectacular at the draft. Everywhere else though? Pretty mediocre, at best. It seems like unless it gets dropped on his lap, he's unable to make a good deal. And then of course, plenty of bad signings and trades to speak of.

 

[NervousPerson]

Final score should've been 4-1 but I'll take the win. Hopefully another W tonight!

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I see your entire list is drafting.

I have no problems admitting Holland has been spectacular at the draft. Everywhere else though? Pretty mediocre, at best. It seems like unless it gets dropped on his lap, he's unable to make a good deal. And then of course, plenty of bad signings and trades to speak of.

Drafting has and always will be the biggest factor in a team's sustained success.

Free agency and trades are secondary to help tinker and improve. And even trades don't happen without factoring in the draft - where players, prospects, and picks are used.

People around here seem to think that free agency and trades are the most important way to assess their GM. That's amateur hour talk.

Also, how many GMs have all their good moves "fall into their lap"? Even if people want to say that good moves "fall into his lap", isn't it a credit to him and the organization he's sustained that good moves do "fall in his lap?"
Not only in the people that he's surrounded himself with, but in the organizations success. Would Alfie want to come here without the winning history and Swedish success? Would Dekeyser have been a lock to the Red Wings had they been bottom dwellers since he was a child?

Holland isn't without flaws. Nobody is. But if you look around the league and actually use some perspective it's easy to understand why he (and Babcock) are considered among the elite of the elite of their professions.

 

[SoupGuru]

I know I don't see eye to eye with a lot of posters here when it comes to managing the prospects. This board is very prospect-centric, obviously.

But one thing I don't understand is why no one seems to get why the team is loyal to certain players.

The organization rewards loyalty. Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Fischer, Cleary, Yzerman, Lidstrom. These are guys that have given everything to the Wings and the Wings have given them a ton back. Hudler, Filppula, Fedorov. These guys probably don't get the same treatment.

When a kid comes up to play on the big team, what's the type of behavior you want to model for him? You want him to "do things the right way". No matter what skill level, if he gives the team everything, he might get a chance to play longer than some of us are comfortable with.

So yeah, maybe the team was too loyal to Cleary this year. But I remember Cleary nearly losing an eye to Pronger by going toe to toe with him. That's the kind of gumption I want out of Tatar and all the other rookies. And Tatar knows that if he plays that way and gives everything he has, he too will have the organization making sure he gets every break down the road.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

^ and when I said drafting I really meant drafting and development.

 

[Frk It]

I know I don't see eye to eye with a lot of posters here when it comes to managing the prospects. This board is very prospect-centric, obviously.

But one thing I don't understand is why no one seems to get why the team is loyal to certain players.

The organization rewards loyalty. Draper, Maltby, McCarty, Fischer, Cleary, Yzerman, Lidstrom. These are guys that have given everything to the Wings and the Wings have given them a ton back. Hudler, Filppula, Fedorov. These guys probably don't get the same treatment.

When a kid comes up to play on the big team, what's the type of behavior you want to model for him? You want him to "do things the right way". No matter what skill level, if he gives the team everything, he might get a chance to play longer than some of us are comfortable with.

So yeah, maybe the team was too loyal to Cleary this year. But I remember Cleary nearly losing an eye to Pronger by going toe to toe with him. That's the kind of gumption I want out of Tatar and all the other rookies. And Tatar knows that if he plays that way and gives everything he has, he too will have the organization making sure he gets every break down the road.

This is a fair point.

But there is a balance between being loyal, and keeping guys around that are long past their expiration date.

This is a business too, and while it's easy to be nostalgic about players past contributions... Clearys 26 goal season and versatility is memories of the past. That stuff is long gone.

If you can't detach yourself personally/emotionally from the players you employ, you will fall into a trap where you can no longer do your job as you are obligated to.

 

[Johnz96*]

Drafting has and always will be the biggest factor in a team's sustained success.

Free agency and trades are secondary to help tinker and improve. And even trades don't happen without factoring in the draft - where players, prospects, and picks are used.

People around here seem to think that free agency and trades are the most important way to assess their GM. That's amateur hour talk.

Also, how many GMs have all their good moves "fall into their lap"? Even if people want to say that good moves "fall into his lap", isn't it a credit to him and the organization he's sustained that good moves do "fall in his lap?"
Not only in the people that he's surrounded himself with, but in the organizations success. Would Alfie want to come here without the winning history and Swedish success? Would Dekeyser have been a lock to the Red Wings had they been bottom dwellers since he was a child?

Holland isn't without flaws. Nobody is. But if you look around the league and actually use some perspective it's easy to understand why he (and Babcock) are considered among the elite of the elite of their professions.

They inherited Bowman's legacy and it's been crumbling since he left.
Their mindset is middle of the pack dump and chase when they had the assets to still be the dominant puck possession team they have been for more than 2 decades for a long time still.
Especially with Pav, Z and Kronner playing for huge home town discounts.

 

[Flowah]

Drafting has and always will be the biggest factor in a team's sustained success.

Free agency and trades are secondary to help tinker and improve. And even trades don't happen without factoring in the draft - where players, prospects, and picks are used.

People around here seem to think that free agency and trades are the most important way to assess their GM. That's amateur hour talk.

Also, how many GMs have all their good moves "fall into their lap"? Even if people want to say that good moves "fall into his lap", isn't it a credit to him and the organization he's sustained that good moves do "fall in his lap?"
Not only in the people that he's surrounded himself with, but in the organizations success. Would Alfie want to come here without the winning history and Swedish success? Would Dekeyser have been a lock to the Red Wings had they been bottom dwellers since he was a child?

Holland isn't without flaws. Nobody is. But if you look around the league and actually use some perspective it's easy to understand why he (and Babcock) are considered among the elite of the elite of their professions.

What good is your excellent drafting if you clog up your pipeline with useless trash? What good is your excellent drafting if you trade away your best young center prospect for a 33 year old?

Would Holland have had that kind of success to entice players like Dekeyser and Alfie if he hadn't had Illitch's limitless pocketbook during the 1990's and early 2000's?

 

[Run the Jewels]

Well, let's see: Tatar, Almquist, Mrazek, Pulkkinen, Sheahan, Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, Athanasiou, and Mantha. Jarnkrok, too, given that we did get a return for him. Apparently it's easy to forget that drafting, too, is a rather large part of management, though I can't really fathom why; the Wings have for a long while gotten by on their drafted players. It's also seemingly very easy to forget that this team has remained competitive. I am of course aware that 20-plus years of success has thoroughly spoiled this fanbase, to the degree that merely being competitive equates with unforgivable failure. The fans of this team surely cannot market in perspective.

Though this will undoubtedly fall mostly on deaf ears, I think it should be emphasized that imperfect does not mean incompetent. There are quite a few incompetent general managers in this league, but Holland's mistakes do not make him one of them. And yes, this comes from someone who was outraged at Cleary's return to the organization.

That said, please define "great moves" and point out all of those that have been pulled off by other GMs during that period.

Holland hasn't run the draft in over 15 years. That was Jim Nill's gig.

1. Boston has done a masterful job of integrating youth into their roster (Reilly Smith at 22, Hamilton at 19, Torey Krug at 22) while also making key trades to make them one of the biggest Cup contenders over the past 4-5 years.
2. Same with Chicago. Everyone assumed they were toast after that first Cup win given the salary cap hell they were in at the time; they quickly cleared all that cap space while trading for a bunch of young talent that is now part of the core of their organization. Those are the moves of a savvy general manager. Young players who are part of their core include Brandon Saad at 21, Nick Leddy at 21, Andrew Shaw at 22.
3. Same thing with St Louis, Doug Armstrong's trades for Shattenkirk, Bouwmeester, Miller and Ott have made them Cup favorites where only a few years ago they were doormats.
4. Stevie Y used to get ripped on for the early part of his time as GM and he's taken a lot of flack from Bolts fans for trading St Louis, but what he has been able to do to position them for long-term success has been impressive. They weathered the storm from losing Stamkos and Ben Bishop is looking like a great acquisition. Yzerman has changed coaches when necessary and I think Callahan will be a big help to them come playoff time. Ondrej Palat at 22, Tyler Johnson at 23,. and Radko Gudas are all guys who were integrated into the lineup of a very competitive team.
5. Doug Wilson has yet to win a Cup but has done a nice job keeping the Sharks in Cup contention year in and year out, signing Niemi to replace Nabakov, trading for Joe Thornton, Dan Boyle and Brent Burns, and unlike Holland he hasn't prevented his younger players from making the big club (Hertl, Vlasic at age 22, Demers at age 22, etc).

I think these are all organizations that have a plan in place and know how to integrate young players, make trades to address needs, and as a result will continue to be competitive in the years to come.

 

[Heaton]

Holland hasn't run the draft in over 15 years. That was Jim Nill's gig.

Technically, we don't really know who was involved in what. Nill 'ran' the draft, what does that mean exactly? Holland was definitely heavily involved regardless of who was the one doing the day to day operations of it.

 

[Frk It]

Holland hasn't run the draft in over 15 years. That was Jim Nill's gig.

1. Boston has done a masterful job of integrating youth into their roster (Reilly Smith at 22, Hamilton at 19, Torey Krug at 22) while also making key trades to make them one of the biggest Cup contenders over the past 4-5 years.
2. Same with Chicago. Everyone assumed they were toast after that first Cup win given the salary cap hell they were in at the time; they quickly cleared all that cap space while trading for a bunch of young talent that is now part of the core of their organization. Those are the moves of a savvy general manager. Young players who are part of their core include Brandon Saad at 21, Nick Leddy at 21, Andrew Shaw at 22.
3. Same thing with St Louis, Doug Armstrong's trades for Shattenkirk, Bouwmeester, Miller and Ott have made them Cup favorites where only a few years ago they were doormats.
4. Stevie Y used to get ripped on for the early part of his time as GM and he's taken a lot of flack from Bolts fans for trading St Louis, but what he has been able to do to position them for long-term success has been impressive. They weathered the storm from losing Stamkos and Ben Bishop is looking like a great acquisition. Yzerman has changed coaches when necessary and I think Callahan will be a big help to them come playoff time. Ondrej Palat at 22, Tyler Johnson at 23,. and Radko Gudas are all guys who were integrated into the lineup of a very competitive team.
5. Doug Wilson has yet to win a Cup but has done a nice job keeping the Sharks in Cup contention year in and year out, signing Niemi to replace Nabakov, trading for Joe Thornton, Dan Boyle and Brent Burns, and unlike Holland he hasn't prevented his younger players from making the big club (Hertl, Vlasic at age 22, Demers at age 22, etc).

I think these are all organizations that have a plan in place and know how to integrate young players, make trades to address needs, and as a result will continue to be competitive in the years to come.

Good post.

Bishop was actually a acquired in a trade from Ottawa for Cory Conacher and a 4th round pick. Stevie and TB "won" in that trade big time. Almost as big as that Quincey trade

 

[Run the Jewels]

Technically, we don't really know who was involved in what. Nill 'ran' the draft, what does that mean exactly? Holland was definitely heavily involved regardless of who was the one doing the day to day operations of it.

General Managers are responsible for a few obvious areas:

1. Roster composition
2. Trades
3. Free agent signings

Which of those have impressed you over the past 4-5 years? It's funny, people say they are tired of this conversation yet they come back and argue it over and over and over again.

 

[Frk It]

Technically, we don't really know who was involved in what. Nill 'ran' the draft, what does that mean exactly? Holland was definitely heavily involved regardless of who was the one doing the day to day operations of it.

You have to imagine a guy who started as a scout, then took over as Director of Scouting, is still very involved in the scouting and drafting process. And also has had influence in a lot of draft picks, in one way or another, over the last 20 or so years.

That's one area where I can't really criticize much at all.

 

[SoupGuru]

And who was Nill's boss?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

What good is your excellent drafting if you clog up your pipeline with useless trash? What good is your excellent drafting if you trade away your best young center prospect for a 33 year old?

Would Holland have had that kind of success to entice players like Dekeyser and Alfie if he hadn't had Illitch's limitless pocketbook during the 1990's and early 2000's?

Sheahan > Jarnkrok. Would you feel better if we have up Sheahan rather than Jarnkrok?

A 33 year old that helps you immediately and if re-signed, makes you're need for a decent center prospect non existent for the next few years. Which gives you time to draft and develop another center or two.

What useless trash do you speak of?

Was every team that spent high pre-cap successful? Was any team more successful than Detroit? How did the Rangers fare?

Secondly, are we going to completey ignore Detroit's success post lockout as well? Even if you completely ignore Detroit's success pre-lockout (which is completely ignorant), but even if you do ignore that, how many teams have been as successful as Detroit? Please inform us and let me save you time by saying the list will be minimal.

I wish part of this fanbase would go live life in Edmonton or Calgary's shoes for a few years.

Everything good Holland does gets no credit and just fell into his lap and everything bad is completely on him and magnified times 20.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

And who was Nill's boss?

"Doesn't matter, it just fell into his lap."

 

[SoupNazi]

"Doesn't matter, it just fell into his lap."

Which was also what people said about Dekeyser.

 

[Run the Jewels]

And who was Nill's boss?

This is up there with the "we win while Kindl is in the lineup so he must play" argument.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Which was also what people said about Dekeyser.

And Brunner. And Alfie. And pretty much anything else that would be a considered a positive on the Holland front. Some people just refuse to give him credit for anything. It's a combination of humorous and pathetic.

 

[Johnz96*]

"Doesn't matter, it just fell into his lap."

I would think Bowman had a lot to do with the Nill.

Holland inherited Bowman's legacy and it has been in constant decline since he left in 09.

 

[SoupGuru]

This is up there with the "we win while Kindl is in the lineup so he must play" argument.

I just don't think people realize how big of a role a GM has. People on this board point to one or two decisions that they don't like and then pretend that's the only thing a GM does.

 

[Johnz96*]

And Brunner. And Alfie. And pretty much anything else that would be a considered a positive on the Holland front. Some people just refuse to give him credit for anything. It's a combination of humorous and pathetic.

Dekeyser and Alfie did fall into his lap.
Malykhin wants to also but Kenny just may be too stupid to take advantage of it.

 

[XxTatar21SaucexX]

I think it's safe to say that Ken Holland is one of the top-tier managers of the league. Some fans here are overly critical. Regarding the Legwand/Jarnkrok swap, it gives the team a legitimate chance to make the playoffs this year and also gives them a bit of a time buffer to draft another highly touted center in the years to come as was previously stated by Silkyjohnson.

You guys might not like the trade, but this is risk management. Holland has his back up against the wall with all the injuries and the team on the brink of making the post-season. You make the best out of a bad situation, you win short-term and mayyyybe you lose long-term but that is too early to tell.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Dekeyser and Alfie did fall into his lap.
Malykhin wants to also but Kenny just may be too stupid to take advantage of it.

Once again, why did all of these players want to come to Detroit?

Let me guess, "Scotty Bowman!"