Would you take Prime Gretzky, or Prime Crosby and Malkin?

[McRpro]

really you would take them over Orr because orr only had 2 cup

ftfy

 

[nowhereman]

To think prime Gretzky by himself basically almost outscored prime Malkin and Crosby together...


The Great One.

Yeah, I mean, it's not like that was almost 40 years ago or anything...

Scoring rates have changed dramatically and I'd be surprised if Gretzky ever put up more than 160 points in today's game. Most of Gretzky's best adjusted seasons fall in the 150-60 point range and that's with a pretty flawed model that still doesn't accurately account for better goaltending, better systems, more Europeans/Americans and less discrepancy between stars and supports players. Personally, I think the game is too competitive for any player, even Wayne Gretzky himself, to dominate to that extent ever again.

 

[MadLuke]

Not that Crosby/Malkin does not bring some of it, but Gretzky is quite interesting in many aspect outside is ice ability:

1) Hockey cap hit, because of the maximum the value of an prime Gretzky by dollar on the cap would be really good.
2) Work ethic, never lifting your feet off mentality, pissing on the bench playing 30 minutes if you need too.
3) From 79-80 to 86-87 Gretzky played 632 games, second most and close to Jarvis 642, often with Crosby / Malkin you have only one of them, that said they were almost always there in the playoff so if you have a playoff bound team that a lesser aspect.
4) Is it completely unrelated that so many of those young Oilers got so good ?, that Lemieux seem to have a jumped a step in 1987 after playing with Gretzky, maybe number 2 has some benefit for the group of player that would grow with him, maybe that in today world that would be less of an aspect with everyone being more professional with the amount of money in play.

 

[rogking65]

For peak - Esposito >> Messier for me. Career maybe you can make a case for Messier, but I still prefer Espo. Not sure how that's relevant to anything I said though.

Kunitz has 4 cups. Is he better than any of them?

I probably have Crosby 5th all-time. Still think all of Lemieux, Orr and Gretzky are a significant tier above, and despite how good Malkin is, I take any of those 3 alone above that duo.

I guess he thinks Beukeboom with 4 cups is more valuable than Orr

 

[Pi]

I’m thought I was in the minority here, and I find Malkin a touch overrated because he isn’t as good in the playoffs as the regular season, and he gets hurt a lot. Actually Crosby is hurt a lot too but at least he plays aggressive defense and maintains his play more in the postseason.

I guess I’m going with Gretzky. Changed my mind.

I'd go with Gretzky too but your standards are very, very high if someone with 169 playoff points at over PPG isn't good for you.

Malkin is an absolute beast.

 

[MadLuke]

really you would take them over Orr because orr only had 1 cup

Orr has 2 cups, 69-70 (21 year's old) and 71-72 when he was 23.

Orr stopped playing a lot of hockey in 1975 (26 year's old). 2 cups by your 26 year's old season is not bad at all, that Mario Lemieux, Crosby/Malkin has only one by then.

With modern knee knowledge and surgery change are good that Orr finish with more than 2 cups.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Gretzky would probably outscore a prime Crosby by about 20-30 points or so (he wouldn't come remotely close to his 80s totals). Is that 20-30 points really worth a prime Malkin?

Gretzky proved he couldn't do it alone in Los Angeles. On the other hand, Sid and Geno won Cups with less than impressive rosters. I think people often overstate the importance of a single player, even one as good as The Great One.

Gretzky would be tossing out 200 pt seasons left and right but I get your point, a single dominant player isn’t as impactful in hockey as other sports

 

[nowhereman]

Gretzky would be tossing out 200 pt seasons left and right but I get your point, a single dominant player isn’t as impactful in hockey as other sports

So, even though scoring rates have changed drastically and adjusted point models suggest that Gretzky's best season (85-86) is equivalent to 170 adjusted points (already a bit of an exaggeration), he's going to be "tossing out 200 pt seasons left and right"? I would bet my house Gretzky never sniffs 170 points, let alone 200.

Gretzky is the greatest player who ever lived but I think the era he played in confuses the issue, as it was the highest scoring stretch of hockey in history. That doesn't take anything away from Wayne but it creates the illusion that he was disproportionately better than his competitors.

 

[Bouboumaster]

I'd be ok with either one of them

 

[Jericho111091]

Generally you'd go with two franchise players over one, but this is Gretzky we're talking about. Gotta say Wayne.

 

[Gurglesons]

Gretzky.

 

[Sky04]

Quite easily Crosby and Malkin, one player no matter how good isn't enough to win in today's game, a team built around Crosby and Malkin have won 3 cups in the modern era. If Gretzky ends up in Buffalo or Edmonton he's stuck in oblivion for 10 years.

 

[Three On Zero]

Give me Crosby/Malkin. You watch the difference in how goalies acted/performed in Gretzky's era VS. now. Gretzky would be a star for sure but I don't see him bein that far ahead of the competition like he was back than

 

[Albatros]

Several good players > one good player.

 

[bobholly39]

Quite easily Crosby and Malkin, one player no matter how good isn't enough to win in today's game, a team built around Crosby and Malkin have won 3 cups in the modern era. If Gretzky ends up in Buffalo or Edmonton he's stuck in oblivion for 10 years.

No player in history has made players around him better than Gretzky.

If Gretzky ends up in Buffalo....Eichel starts churning out ~140 point seasons if he plays on his wing or on the PP. Skinner is no longer a 3 goal player, but back to being a perennial ~40-50 goal guy if he's on Gretzky's line. Dahlin becomes the new Coffey, starts competing for Norris every year. Gretzky is a game changer.

Edmonton? Well, if Gretzky gets to play with Drai and McDavid, that's not even fair.

 

[Sky04]

No player in history has made players around him better than Gretzky.

If Gretzky ends up in Buffalo....Eichel starts churning out ~140 point seasons if he plays on his wing or on the PP. Skinner is no longer a 3 goal player, but back to being a perennial ~40-50 goal guy if he's on Gretzky's line. Dahlin becomes the new Coffey, starts competing for Norris every year. Gretzky is a game changer.

Edmonton? Well, if Gretzky gets to play with Drai and McDavid, that's not even fair.

And yet he never won a single cup away from a dynasty Edmonton team, while the partity in the league is far greater now.

Thinking Dahlin becomes Coffey because of Gretzky is a huge insult to Coffey. Obviously I meant Gretzky being placed in the same situation as those players, not playing with them. In a vaccum I'll take the 2 110 point players and guaranteed depth.

 

[Spirit of 67]

If you saw him play, this would be an easy answer.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

It's a tough one.

I would go with Gretzky but I see the argument for Crosby-Malkin.

Crosby at his peak was on pace for 132 points in a season and likely would have come very close. Then you add Malkin's 113 point version into the mix.

That's pretty damn good up the middle.

It really comes down to how you think Gretzky's game would translate in the modern NHL. He wouldn't hit 212 points but I do think he would be the best player in the game and likely cross 150 pts in his best year. The man was one of the finest high IQ playmakers in the game and that doesn't change across generations.

 

[Video Nasty]

If Crosby or Malkin played nearly all the available games, I get the rationale for taking them.

Otherwise, it's Gretzky.

 

[Video Nasty]

It's a tough one.

I would go with Gretzky but I see the argument for Crosby-Malkin.

Crosby at his peak was on pace for 132 points in a season and likely would have come very close. Then you add Malkin's 113 point version into the mix.

That's pretty damn good up the middle.

It really comes down to how you think Gretzky's game would translate in the modern NHL. He wouldn't hit 212 points but I do think he would be the best player in the game and likely cross 150 pts in his best year. The man was one of the finest high IQ playmakers in the game and that doesn't change across generations.

Prime Gretzky is worth more than 22 points higher than 2018-2019 Kucherov.

If Thornton can get 96 assists in 81 games and 92 assists in 82 games in back to back seasons, Crosby with 84 in 79, Sedin dished out 83 in 82, and Kucherov passed off 87 in 82 during seasons with leaguewide GPG hovering around 6, does anyone really believe that prime Gretzky still wouldn't be winning scoring titles based off assists alone (or close to it)? Surely, he's pushing 120-130 assists if his goal scoring ability was somehow entirely contained to 40 goals.

At the very least, he does what you say, but does it routinely, rather than a single career year.

170-180 is much more reasonable.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It's not really Crosby/Malkin vs. Gretzky, it's Crosby/Malkin vs. Gretzky/whoever is the second line center.

 

[Canovin]

Oilers fan here saying you can't go wrong here

 

[ScaredStreit]

With all due respect to Crosby and Malkin...this is easily Gretzky.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

It's a tough one.

I would go with Gretzky but I see the argument for Crosby-Malkin.

Crosby at his peak was on pace for 132 points in a season and likely would have come very close. Then you add Malkin's 113 point version into the mix.

That's pretty damn good up the middle.

It really comes down to how you think Gretzky's game would translate in the modern NHL. He wouldn't hit 212 points but I do think he would be the best player in the game and likely cross 150 pts in his best year. The man was one of the finest high IQ playmakers in the game and that doesn't change across generations.

That was one season for each of them. Malkin has spent more seasons injured than closer to his peak season. Gretzky is the guarantee to produce the insane numbers every year.

 

[6ix]

Gretzky. Never pass on the GOAT.