LakeLivin
Armchair Quarterback
Kind of depends on who the 2nd line center behind Gretzky is. If it's a league average #2 center, in spite of how great Gretzky was I think I'd go with 40 minutes of +++ ice time over 20 minutes of ++++ ice time.
Would you take Prime Gretzky, or Prime Crosby and Malkin?
- Thread starter slapKing
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If Malkin could have stayed more injury free/concistent I would pick the duo(since they are 2 pretty great players themselves, duh) but voted Gretzky, part of it because I want the novelty of having the greatest player of all time in my organization- also of course Gretzky would get league maximum but would still have salary left for a good complementary player compared to 2x league maximum in Crosby+Malkin.
AD1066
Registered User
- Sep 30, 2011
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I see your point but it's not like Gretzky is doubling their point totals today. More like 130 + 120 vs. 150 + X or something to that effect.
jbeck5
Registered User
- Jan 26, 2009
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Well it depends which way you look at it. If you take raw numbers like I suggested, then Gretzky hands down. my guess is that McDavid would actually skate circles around Gretzky if you just took 1985 Gretzky and just summoned him today with 80s equipment and 60s-70s development. The game and equipment and development has evolved so much that these old greats summoned in the NHL wouldn't even be NHL quality a lot of the time. Go look at rocket Richard. A low level OHLer in 2021 is a much better skater than him.
If you assume you're taking the old great and putting him with today's development and equipment it's anyone's guess. Who knows.
Goaltending makes a massive difference here.
In the 1980s, the goalie with the highest save percentage throughout the decade (>60 games) was Roy with an .896.
In the 2010s, there wasn't a single goalie who played at least 60 games in the decade that was even below .900.
Goaltending was an absolute farce back then, so anyone saying Gretzky would still be putting up 200 points is out of their damn mind.
In the 1980s, the goalie with the highest save percentage throughout the decade (>60 games) was Roy with an .896.
In the 2010s, there wasn't a single goalie who played at least 60 games in the decade that was even below .900.
Goaltending was an absolute farce back then, so anyone saying Gretzky would still be putting up 200 points is out of their damn mind.
Nemesis Prime
Registered User
This. If Gretzky plays today,is he even the best player in the league? I'm not convinced. I don't know if his style would result in him being the best. He'd still rack up assists for sure, just not sure how many goals he could score.
For today's NHL, I take Crosby and Malkin
BlueBaron
Registered User
I remember being in pools where Gretzky's goals and assists were counted as separate players.
This generation doesn't seem to understand what generational is.
This generation doesn't seem to understand what generational is.
Fair comment, but I think he'd still score plenty of goals. He did win 5 Richard trophies during his career. Even if scoring totals were inflated, they were inflated for everyone. Gretzky led the league in goals 5x, and assists 16x in 20 years. Anyone who leads the league in assists 16x is going to be a pretty good pick. Is there any compelling reason he wouldn't score goals today? We do see guys score with big shots, we see guys with backhands, we see guys with quick releases. Gretzky had all those tools in abundance. Obviously he wouldn't get 92 today, but why wouldn't one of the best goal scorers of all time still be one of the best of all time? I've heard a lot of crazy theories about changing in butterfly goalies, better defenses that for some reason disproportionately affected Gretzky and basically no one else in the league, etc. but when you look at it, you see that Gretzky was one of the most consistent goal scorers for a solid decade, then declined sharply. Some of this was just natural decline, but much of it was directly after his back injury in 91, and the arthritis that developed in his shoulder which affected his shot in the years that followed the back injury. Guy still had the most 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 goal seasons of all time though. Even if we assume these totals would be lower (which I also assume), it's hard to believe he'd go from getting 92 to only scoring say 20 or whatever. And if we assume his 92 and 87 goal seasons end up being 55-60ish goals... isn't it hard to argue he's not going to be the best player in the league with 55 goals and 90ish assists?
IceHockeyDude
Registered User
If it was the 80's when Gretzky recorded those 200+ point seasons, i'd pick him. If we're talking about the recent years, i'd pick Crosby and Malkin.
Ease of scoring is not only a matter of numbers though, but also relates to the required skills. It would be wrong to assume that against a modern goalie simply a half of the same type of chances would go in. Gretzky increasingly became a playmaker as goaltending developed, I'm not convinced that it would have been much different if he was some years younger.
Primary Assist
The taste of honey is worse than none at all
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A 1-2 center punch of The Great One and Jay freaking McClement would still have more offensive fire power than Sid and Geno
nowhereman
Registered User
So the 170-180 points you'd get out of Gretzky/McClement is worth more than the 240-250 points you'd get out of Crosby/Malkin? If you put McClement on the second line, he'd get caved in by superior opposition and would render the line ineffective. Meanwhile, you get a 130+ point center and a 110-120+ point center on two lines with Crosby/Malkin.
Given how much the game has progressed and how much went right for Gretzky in his prime, I'm still surprised people basically think he was twice as good as anyone not named Orr/Lemieux/Howe.
abo9
Registered User
- Jun 25, 2017
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It's tough without knowing Gretzky's 2c. Like, if we assume that the Gretzky team plays with 3 C's I go with the duo. If Gretz plays with Philippe Danault as his 2C, I pick Gretz.
If there's a scenario where Crosby/Malkin/Gretz cost 0 against the cap, and you can build a team around them with the remaining cap... it's probably still Gretzky
[mod] Malkin has a Conn Smythe and in 2016-17 could have easily got it too.
If there's a scenario where Crosby/Malkin/Gretz cost 0 against the cap, and you can build a team around them with the remaining cap... it's probably still Gretzky
[mod] Malkin has a Conn Smythe and in 2016-17 could have easily got it too.
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Ease of scoring is not only a matter of numbers though, but also relates to the required skills. It would be wrong to assume that against a modern goalie simply a half of the same type of chances would go in. Gretzky increasingly became a playmaker as goaltending developed, I'm not convinced that it would have been much different if he was some years younger.
Maybe, but Gretzky was also getting older, with a bad back and an arthritic shoulder. I don't really see changes in goaltending being as much a factor in Gretzky's goal scoring decline than aging and injuries. I don't think changes in goaltending for some reason would have affected Gretzky at one rate, and every other player in the league at a lesser degree. It seems far more likely that it was age and his injuries, all of which are well known to us, that was the result of his decline. Gretzky was accurate, intelligent, patient, and had incredible anticipation. Am I supposed to believe those qualities don't matter in today's league? He never really relied on power anyways. I feel like, if anything, his skills would translate incredibly well into today's league.
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Sorry. I am morally and ethically 100% anti-Penguins, but this is absolutely no debate. The best center of his (probably any) generation is not worth more than two of the best centers of their generation. Regardless of individual greatness. Great teams win cups, not great players, which is why the Oilers core won two (I count 94) without the Great one and he won zero without them.
Crow
Registered User
- May 19, 2014
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No, while he definitely had some amazing years, his overall playoff numbers are a departure from his regular season numbers in a significant way. Look them up if you don’t believe me. Pens might have won some other years if he had played more like his regular season self.
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abo9
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- Jun 25, 2017
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Hmm okok I see what you mean (from a stats perspective, I'm not a Pens fan so don't remember his actual play in the playoffs)
Still a PPG player and monster in those years that he was on. But yeah overall definitely seems like a step down from his RS play - which is pretty insane.
CanadienShark
Registered User
- Dec 18, 2012
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Looking at raw totals only, I'm taking Gretzky. Taking into account for era, I'm taking the duo quite easily.
Yea, Gretzky wouldn't be walking over the blueline and firing slapshots past a goalie like he was in his prime, but I'm sure he'd find other ways to score. His deception and accuracy was top notch. Goalies today are better, but they're also more reliant on technique and thus more predictable. He'd be able to find their weak spots.
"I remember when the Penguins paid for 2 max salary players" - me, in alternate universe.
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