Would you sign Duchene / Stone?

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L'Aveuglette

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There's been a lot of people making it seem as if Duchene leaving is a positive all over social media these last few days when not long ago getting rid of the guy seemed crazy. All of a sudden it looks like he won't stay and "no one cares about him ship him out".

Either there's a lot of shilling happening or Sens fans are being successfully gaslighted into believing this fire sale is some sort of well-thought out plan for the future, which it really isn't. Our GM is not up to it. Trade Duchene and perhaps Stone, and watch us dwell at the bottom of the standings for years and years while the stands completely empty out.

There isn't anything better out there ladies and gents. We need to keep the precious little amount of talent we still have. Don't fall for the "rebuild" propaganda. These moves are purely financially based.
 

Crosside

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Aug 1, 2018
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If new owner coming . Sign both and go for Bobrovsky and a good rd and we battle for a playoff spot next year
 

supsens

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Oct 6, 2013
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Any team motivated by the best hockey decisions would sign both players.

Unfortunatley for Sens fans, we have an owner that has decided to implement a financially motivated firesale, so both will be moved.

To make matters worse, we have an incompetent GM dealing from a position of weakness, so the return will likely be disappointing, even with lowered expectations.

Except Duchene does not want to stay so he is a non starter. The question is how do convince Stone to stick around.
 

BonkTastic

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There's been a lot of people making it seem as if Duchene leaving is a positive all over social media these last few days when not long ago getting rid of the guy seemed crazy. All of a sudden it looks like he won't stay and "no one cares about him ship him out".

Either there's a lot of shilling happening or Sens fans are being successfully gaslighted into believing this fire sale is some sort of well-thought out plan for the future, which it really isn't. Our GM is not up to it. Trade Duchene and perhaps Stone, and watch us dwell at the bottom of the standings for years and years while the stands completely empty out.

There isn't anything better out there ladies and gents. We need to keep the precious little amount of talent we still have. Don't fall for the "rebuild" propaganda. These moves are purely financially based.

At this point, I'm so demoralized about the future of this team that I actually don't see a point to keeping Duchene - assuming, of course, that there is a good market for an elite center and we can get some solid futures for him.

Our owner is hell-bent on being a miserly prick for the forseeable future. I think that much is obvious. We're a god-awful team even with Duchene on the roster. Our division is frigging gangbusters at the moment. We already traded away one of the best defencemen in the league. We clearly don't have the money to bolster the team via UFA, and we don't have a 1st rounder this year... How is this going to get better anytime soon?

I hate that Dorion and Melnyk have screwed this team up so badly, but if we're being honest with ourselves, if we can get a solid return for Duchene (and Dzingel, and Ceci), that's probably the best long-term move. Keep Stone as the model leader to build around (assuming he even wants to stay in this dumpster fire) and stop trying to ignore the budget team model we are being forced kicking and screaming into becoming.

Now, do I think Dorion is capable of making that kind of good trade? Not really. But what other choice do we have? Melnyk is never going to fire his puppet GM because he's a good boy who does what he's told and tows Eugene's line of "budget > hockey".

It's a miserable situation, made worse by the fact that nobody in charge of anything seems to understand what a massive clusterf**k this organization has become. It's depressing, and makes me sick to think that we stupidly traded a top-3 pick plus a TON more for the guy, but even if we sign Duchene, it's ABUNDANTLY clear that we're not going to invest in anyone else to play with him... So what's the point? We suck now with him.

Writing this post makes me sad. I need a drink, and it's not even 9am.
 
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danielpalfredsson

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I'd sign both if we had a new owner and could spend to the ceiling.

In our current situation, I think we need to look at what we can do to best set the team up five years from now when they move to a downtown arena and the possibility of a change in ownership or at the very least outside investors is increased.

Attendance is already bad, the brand is severely damaged locally by being intertwined with Melnyk's toxic brand. Even if we retain both Duchene and Stone, because of our inability to spend, we'll never be able to build on having the two of them in their prime, and we'll at best be a playoff bubble team in our better years where everything clicks, and this is a huge long shot.

We are entering a period where all the arguments against deliberately losing are irrelevant because all the negatives that come with tanking (poor attendance and fan interest, players not re-signing, not making the playoffs) are already happening regardless of whether we choose to tank. With that in mind, we might as well tank in order to enjoy the long term benefits that come with that strategy.

The most productive thing we can do right now is to build up assets and a pool of top prospects in order to put us in a position where if there is a change of ownership a few years down the line, we can actually build a team and keep our players. Signing both Duchene and Stone is counter productive to that.

I would keep Stone because he is younger meaning he is more likely to still be a top line forward 4-5 years from now, and his leadership would be extremely valuable through a tough few seasons of losing. While Stone is one of the best wingers in the league, if we are losing a majority of our veterans, including our only solid goaltender in Craig Anderson, I find it hard to believe that Stone alone will be enough to push us out of the basement and sabotage our ability to finish as close to last place as possible and rack up 4th OA or better picks.

Matt Duchene will be 29 years old next season. If we keep both Duchene and Stone the consequences would be;
-Makes our team better, we don't get as valuable draft picks, but we aren't likely to be good enough to make the playoffs.
-Nearly 30 million tied up in Duchene, Stone, and Ryan increases the odds that we have to bridge players like Chabot, Tkachuk, and White. Bridging those players increases the odds of them walking as UFAs or having to be traded earlier on in their careers compared to if we cost control them as early as possible.
-The cap is going up, and there is a possible new US TV deal on the horizon. Being forced to bridge key young stars at the expense of a player who'll be in his mid 30's by the time this "rebuild" gains any momentum could destroy any prospect of contending or even just being a playoff team before it happens via making some of our best players too expensive to keep beyond the age of 27 or 7 year mark because they weren't cost controlled coming off of their ELCs, and a rising cap along with arbitration and/or their UFA status increases their ability to bargain for much larger salaries than they'd otherwise be signed to right off their ELCs.

Therefore, I would attempt to sign Mark Stone, and I would trade Matt Duchene. The original Matt Duchene trade has set this franchise back years, and the only way to equalize against that would be a trade where Duchene signs an extension and as a result we get a young blue chip prospect back among other pieces. Even if that's not a possibility, and we have to trade Duchene for a soft return, it's not worth keeping him just to save face if it is not the right strategic move. There are indirect benefits to trading Duchene, namely freeing up salary space to help sign Chabot and/or Tkachuk to long term deals right off of their ELCs (this is a very finite resource), and making our team significantly worse going into 2020 in order to help ensure we get the best shot at whoever the top prospect is in that draft (currently Lafreniere).
 
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Evanc23

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Nov 20, 2018
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Trade Duchene and Ceci, sign stone at all cost and give him the Captaincy, tank for high draft picks for two years and by then we should be able to have two dynamic forwards with those picks to go along with Stone, White, Tkachuk, Batherson to fill out the top 6 while having Chabot, Wolanin and Bernard Docker on d, the only problem is getting another top 4 defenseman and a goalie and we would be set.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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If we're not going to surround our core pieces with the help they need to be successful, then we may as well collect as many futures as we can and hope that something changes that allows us to do so.

We need to either commit to a rebuild with a reasonable target for being competitive again, or commit to building around what we currently have. Both options could work, but I don't see us being willing to spend the resources required to do the latter.

tbh, if we were going to build around what we had, it should have started with re-signing Karlsson. If that wasn't an option for whatever reason (I don't care to get into why), we probably should have immediately started the full re-build.
 

danielpalfredsson

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We are currently last with both of them. Not sure keeping them will stop us from having a good shot at the top end of the 2020 draft.

Yes I would sign them, especially with a new owner.

I wouldn't be so sure....

-1 more year of development for our young core guys will hugely improve our team
-There is some randomness and luck to the NHL.
-A new coach with a different system who doesn't play 11-7 might get more out of this current group

I am not saying in any sense that I expect us to be good next year with the above factors, but it has to be understood that the difference between a last place finish, and something like 5th-8th from the bottom while seeming like an equally as big failure on paper is immense when it comes to draft potential. Every draft is different, but typically the drop in quality pick by pick earlier in the draft can be very high. Finishing last gives us the 4th overall pick along with a much higher chance of jumping up to 1, 2, or 3. Where as finishing only a few spots higher might mean instead of 4th overall, we're drafting 7th or 8th overall with a significantly lesser chance at moving up to 1, 2, or 3.
 
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Tuna99

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The basic starting point for a pro sports team is to have star players for the fans to cheer for - that’s what the business is about.

If you can’t sign your star players so the fans have a reason to go to the stadium, your a complete failure as a team
 

Joeyjoejoe

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Dec 18, 2015
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Stone yes, Duchene no.

Use that $8M or whatever is per year and invest it directly to the hockey operations. Give me a veteran coach at $4M, and a young and upcoming assistant coaches. some of that money spent more on pro scouts, maybe an actual assistant GM to help Morion, and more amateur scouts in Europe, Finland is developing tons of young elite talent and we haven't even tapped into that well yet, a huge missed opportunity.

Do this and it will have more impact on and off the ice than Duchene will ever have in his 8 years. Also you won't be tied down to a 30 something declining $8M player.
 
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BonkTastic

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If you can’t sign your star players so the fans have a reason to go to the stadium, your a complete failure as a team

The complete failures of this team to this point are already so numerous and devastating, and have provided to be so toxic to the city and fanbase, that honestly I don't think that signing or trading our current crop of pending UFAs will change anything.

The tipping point was Karlsson. Everything after that is just collateral damage from the original cliff we jumped off of.

We know what this team is, we know how this organization is going to operate going forward for the forseeable future. It's been spelled out since last summer.
 
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Alex1234

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If new owner coming . Sign both and go for Bobrovsky and a good rd and we battle for a playoff spot next year
Ishhhh lol
He’s not selling and he trades picks for cash
Were far from competing unfortunatly
 

Tnuoc Alucard

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.

Our owner is hell-bent on being a miserly prick for the foreseeable future.


We clearly don't have the money to bolster the team via UFA

You bring up two good points.

Do you have any thoughts as to the reasoning behind either or both of them?
 
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Tuna99

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The complete failures of this team to this point are already so numerous and devastating, and have provided to be so toxic to the city and fanbase, that honestly I don't think that signing or trading our current crop of pending UFAs will change anything.

The tipping point was Karlsson. Everything after that is just collateral damage from the original cliff we jumped off of.

We know what this team is, we know how this organization is going to operate going forward for the forseeable future. It's been spelled out since last summer.

I agree. It’s beyond a cosmetic makeover. The entire fanbase needs to have their belief in the team restored. Thia feels like people watching a house burn to the ground and the neighbourhood is watching saying ‘good it’s burning, that house was haunted and I was sick of looking at it every day. Something entirely new was needed’
 
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Alex1234

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I sure do.

Epic and public mismanagement of the franchise that resulted in an apathetic, disengaged and borderline mutinous fanbase, mostly.
But we signed Bobby to a big contract and almost sign EK

We tried...
 

NyQuil

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I think you have to sign at least one of them, but I'm not sure why just one of them would sign.

1. You have to instill confidence in the roster and the farm system that the team is building towards something. When a player reaches their peak and they can no longer be kept, it really questions the idea that there is an achievable goal. This issue is exacerbated by recent history involving the past two Captains, Alfredsson and Karlsson.

2. You have to have quality players to learn from. Star talent can only learn from other star talent. I'm sure Boro has all kinds of things to say about character and pushing cars out of snowbanks but he's not going to show Chabot anything useful on the ice. A rebuild can't just be a scorched earth dismantling or you could be looking at a perpetually losing culture like Florida or Edmonton.

3. You have to repair the relationship with the fans. Most fans are not statisticians who analyze the game in terms of PDO, Corsi and possession numbers. Most fans want to be thrilled and excited and want to root for their favourite player. Usually these players are the most skilled and talented.

I've said this before, but whether or not you believe it's the fan's responsibility to take the first step, or the owner's responsibility, it's ultimately irrelevant because most casual fans will simply find something else to do with their cash. That means, if Melnyk wants to keep his hockey team in Ottawa, he's going to have to make a significant gesture. If he wants to take his team and leave, we'll see if it's a decision Bettman and the NHL agrees with.

4. If neither Stone nor Duchene are signed, I will not be renewing my season tickets. You can argue with me that this team is not going to win a Cup any time soon, and therefore their abilities and salaries are unnecessary, and I fundamentally disagree for the reasons above.
 

danielpalfredsson

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The basic starting point for a pro sports team is to have star players for the fans to cheer for - that’s what the business is about.

If you can’t sign your star players so the fans have a reason to go to the stadium, your a complete failure as a team

I agree with what you are saying, but is that an argument to sign both considering how bad ticket sales have been this year despite us having them under contract?

Nobody is going already with both playing on our team. People don't buy that ownership is operating in good faith, and the ticket sales reflect that. Keeping Stone and Duchene will prevent further damage, but unless it leads to us being a contender (which it won't anytime soon with our spending restrictions) it won't fix the attendance issues that have already been created via intertwining the Senators brand with Melnyk's personal brand.

Might as well take advantage of the sunk cost of poor ticket sales and do a proper rebuild.
 
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Tnuoc Alucard

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I sure do.

Epic and public mismanagement of the franchise that resulted in an apathetic, disengaged and borderline mutinous fanbase, mostly.

So are you suggesting the "Epic and public mismanagement of the franchise" caused the drop in attendance, at the CTC, over the past few seasons then?

18,084 in 2015 -16
16,744 in 2016 -17
15,376 in 2017-18
14,472 (so far) in 2018-19
 

Sensung

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Oct 3, 2017
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I think you have to sign at least one of them, but I'm not sure why just one of them would sign.

1. You have to instill confidence in the roster and the farm system that the team is building towards something. When a player reaches their peak and they can no longer be kept, it really questions the idea that there is an achievable goal. This issue is exacerbated by recent history involving the past two Captains, Alfredsson and Karlsson.

2. You have to have quality players to learn from. Star talent can only learn from other star talent. I'm sure Boro has all kinds of things to say about character and pushing cars out of snowbanks but he's not going to show Chabot anything useful on the ice. A rebuild can't just be a scorched earth dismantling or you could be looking at a perpetually losing culture like Florida or Edmonton.

3. You have to repair the relationship with the fans. Most fans are not statisticians who analyze the game in terms of PDO, Corsi and possession numbers. Most fans want to be thrilled and excited and want to root for their favourite player. Usually these players are the most skilled and talented.

I've said this before, but whether or not you believe it's the fan's responsibility to take the first step, or the owner's responsibility, it's ultimately irrelevant because most casual fans will simply find something else to do with their cash. That means, if Melnyk wants to keep his hockey team in Ottawa, he's going to have to make a significant gesture. If he wants to take his team and leave, we'll see if it's a decision Bettman and the NHL agrees with.

4. If neither Stone nor Duchene are signed, I will not be renewing my season tickets. You can argue with me that this team is not going to win a Cup any time soon, and therefore their abilities and salaries are unnecessary, and I fundamentally disagree for the reasons above.
Great post

On point 2) Boro certainly can teach Chabot what NOT to do, if only by watching any of Mark’s shifts.
 

topshelf15

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So are you suggesting the "Epic and public mismanagement of the franchise" caused the drop in attendance, at the CTC, over the past few seasons then?

18,084 in 2015 -16
16,744 in 2016 -17
15,376 in 2017-18
14,472 (so far) in 2018-19
Absolutely,what has happened in those years that is just as common as the drop in attendance???
 

BonkTastic

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So are you suggesting the "Epic and public mismanagement of the franchise" caused

Epic and public mismanagement
the drop in attendance, at the CTC, over the past few seasons then?

18,084 in 2015 -16
16,744 in 2016 -17
15,376 in 2017-18
14,472 (so far) in 2018-19

The ~ 1300 Drop from 2015/16 to the next season is due to the Phoenix catastrophe and 18-month economic downturn caused by the fallout of a mini-recession centralized within the public service.

The drop in 2017-18 starts in part due to continuing Phoenix mindsets (people being frugal following econimic crisis is common), but kicks into high gear almost immediately after Melnyk's insanely idiotic Heritage Classic outdoor game comments.

The reaction to the city's temporary economic downturn was poor management, and has snowballed at every possiblenturn and doubled-down on absolutely bad decisions.

So yeah. I am suggesting that the drastic end of that attendance downturn - the reaction to a local phenomenon of an economic crisis for part of the fanbase, is absolutely due to awful management and subsequent PR disaster.
 
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Micklebot

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As a reaction to losing Alfredsson, which didn't attempt to make the team better, but instead to fill a hole left by an outgoing player, and proved to be disastrous.

Actually, it was an attempt to not look like fools for making a reactionary trade to acquire him after losing Alfredsson only to lose the high priced acquisition to UFA a couple years later.



... Did we?

We were only missing the part where he agrees to sign the deal we offered. that's like 50% of the required steps to signing a player; step one - offer contract, step two - fax signed contract into the NHL!

Crap, I guess there are three steps, offer, get him to agree, fax in completed trade paperwork... we only got 33% of the way there...
 
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