Would you sign Duchene / Stone?

Discussion in 'Ottawa Senators' started by The Acccountant, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Micklebot

    Micklebot Moderator

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    This is going on quite the tangent, less move back to discussing the topic at hand; would you sign Stone/Duchene.

    Other threads can be used to discuss the inner workings of the teams revenues and expenses
     
  2. bert

    bert Registered User

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    An accurate and terffic post. As per usual. Totally agree.
     
  3. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    1. Oh yes.

    2. Uh huh

    3. Absolutely.

    4. I need both. I don't want one only. I would rather both or neither. Duchene is a massive hole to fill, as is Stone. Just ditch them both and I will renew because the plan will be clear and unwavering. The haul will be outstanding from all the upcoming trades. But I also believe in the youth movement and they will get better. But I need both to believe in the direction, even if we finish last this year.
     
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  4. Silencio

    Silencio Registered User

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    Hey Dorion:

    29627186.jpg
     
  5. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    Yep both stay,and if possible keep Dzingle as well....
     
  6. Crosside

    Crosside Registered User

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    Now seem is Dzingle take the place of Stone
     
  7. topshelf15

    topshelf15 Registered User

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    No thanks,if we cant keep Stone then move all three
     
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  8. L'Aveuglette

    L'Aveuglette "We're a team"

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    Good post Bonk, but I still must disagree.

    That is unless you plan on giving up watching the team altogether, in which case nothing really matters at this point, but otherwise, this team WILL be unwatchable without Duchene. Stone would be our last true top line player and we simply don't have enough talent elsewhere to fill the void. And as you say, with Dorion at the helm and Melnyk tightening the noose, there's no way the trade return would be close to adequate enough to make up for the loss.

    To me, trading Duchene, and possibly Stone, with Karlsson already gone, means there's basically no reason to follow this team anymore. It signals a total lack of desire to compete and I just don't see why anyone would subject themselves to godawful hockey on a yearly basis.

    So sure, we can throw up our hands and say "hell if they're not going to even pretend to ice a real NHL team might as well get rid of everyone" but then all you're left with is a glorified AHL team, and who wants to support that crap?
     
  9. MakeOttawaGreatAgain

    MakeOttawaGreatAgain Illest guy in town!

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    It's barely watchable now. I've watched maybe 5 games since December
     
  10. SensHulk

    SensHulk Registered User

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    I'm going to throw a wild theory here and suggest that maybe the senators are going to retain Duchene and Dzingel and trade Ceci and Stone. I'm solely basing this on the reports of increased interest in Ceci based on the muzzin trade and him and stone are the best of buddies (I'm pretty sure stone wants to keep ceci in Ottawa if he were to commit for another 8 years here), seems quite the coincidence that now Bob Mackenzie is also thinking stone will be traded, Winnipeg is trading their 1st rounder, etc. Would be horrible nonetheless
     
  11. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    I don’t know, what kind of owner is the new owner? Is he ready to spend near the cap (LTIR contracts and other dead costs doesn’t count) until the team is ready to move downtown and then making more revenues?

    If yes, then I sign them. I’m not scared of having an overpaid vet or two. Look at Ryan, yes he is overpaid but can still play good hockey. There’s a lot of parity in the NHL and if you intend to compete, you have to spend. Of course, still have to continue drafting and developing talent to offset highly paid vets with ELCs and RFA contracts

    There’s also astute trades you can make to clear some cap like the 2 Phaneuf trades.

    In the end, the question is how much can we spend to compete with the big boys? Big markets like Toronto, New York or Montreal haven’t been afraid to buy out players or even bury them

    Until then we’re like the Coyotes or the Canes, a micro NHL market

    A few years back Murray was able to build decent teams able to compete because he wasn’t incompetent like Dorion and the Cap was a bit more reasonable. Without him and now with more disparity between the cap and the internal budget, we have what we are seeing today.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  12. Variable26

    Variable26 Global Matador

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  13. supsens

    supsens Registered User

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    They seemed watchable on the Cali trip without him
     
  14. Sensung

    Sensung Registered User

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    Your faith in Dorion to get “a massive haul” is unfounded.

    If “the plan” decided upon last Feb was to tank, then EK and Hoffman should have been moved at the TDL last year. We should have given up last year’’s pick to the AVS. Duchene and Stone should have been gone in the summer. That tank would have been the reset you are advocating and even an incompetent boob like Dorion would get a massive haul, allowing the fanbase to look forward with real hope in a vision for this franchise.

    Instead, they lied to the fanbase to try to sell tickets and have waited until the last minute when they are backed into the corner to make moves, thus killing the return.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
  15. L'Aveuglette

    L'Aveuglette "We're a team"

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    Even terrible teams have good nights. Look at our record, it doesn't lie.
     
  16. supsens

    supsens Registered User

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    I didn't say they are a good team, I said watchable
     
  17. Sensung

    Sensung Registered User

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    To each their own.
     
  18. supsens

    supsens Registered User

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    Well i been watching them 20x as long without Duchene as with, the first year was sooo bad. It will change in a few years,
     
  19. Silencio

    Silencio Registered User

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    Is any team really 5 years away from being a playoff contender in the NHL these days? Feels like there's so much volatility in the standings from season to season.
     
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  20. danielpalfredsson

    danielpalfredsson wishes he thought of 'pete dorito' first

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    When your team cannot spend to keep what you build, yes. Look at losing Methot after our Cup fun and being unable to replace him in the top 4 due to our 68 million dollar budget (at the time) as an example of that.

    There's also a difference between process and results. We could theoretically trade Duchene, Stone, Dzingel, Ceci, etc, roll with a below cap floor team of ELC players/misfit veterans and make the 2020 Stanley Cup Playoff. We could even get beyond lucky and win the Stanley Cup. That still wouldn't justify the process that got us there, because there's such a thing as luck and chance.

    The primary issue with the Senators right now is that if we cannot spend anywhere near the 83 million dollar cap ceiling, we can't build anything, period. Player salaries are tied to the ceiling, so it will make it increasingly difficult for us to retain our star players and ice a competitive roster on a regular basis.

    Attendance is already terrible, people don't trust this organization, they don't want to give it their money.

    If this team cannot win hockey games because they cannot build a team, the most productive thing they can do is build up a stock of elite young players via finishing low in the standings so that in a few years time when the team moves to downtown, or if there are any changes in ownership that result in more money being able to be spent, the team has the best possible base to finally start building. It is futile to build a team when we will constantly be taking two steps backwards.

    (Also, the "Vegas model" of having a low successful payroll and no stars that ownership and/or management was rumoured to be interested in is a myth. They have star players. Their payroll last year was artificially low due to having guys on their ELCs or pre breakout contracts at the right time. They'll be close to the cap ceiling next year with a similar team to the one that has been successful for the last two seasons. The Coyotes are actually what Melnyk (was rumoured) to think the Vegas model was.....and look at their record over the previous decade. Likely to be playoffs in the last 7 seasons, and only 3 playoff berths in the 14 years of the cap era.)
     
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  21. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    Of course not, people who think "team X is many many years away from competing/making the playoffs" haven't been paying attention. The NHL turnover is super fast these days. Colorado had 48 pts in 2016-17, then 95 pts the next season, making the playoffs. This year, they are on pace for 83-84 pts, they'll need a good finish if they want to make the postseason.

    And it has been a bit like that for a while now. I remember in 2011, some pundits here were saying how awful the Sens were going to be and for a long time. The next season, they make the playoffs and lost in 7 games to the Rangers, then the following year make the playoffs again and even beat the Habs in 5 games, making the 2nd round, and that season was with significant injuries to Spezza, Karlsson, Michalek and Anderson.

    Anything you read on the internet has to be taken with a big grain of salt. Informative/factual stuff is far more interesting than opinions/speculation... Of course, this is just my opinion.

    All that being said, I am very skeptic that Melnyk has the financial strength to support a NHL team anymore, it's becoming an even more "expensive toy for billionaires". Ottawa has been one of the best teams to draft and develop players since over a decade, but if they can't spend more on important stuff like coaching, management as well as strengthening the roster (and retain high end talent by paying them), then it's very hard to say when they will be competitive again. New ownership would completely change the outlook of the team. Until then, it's wait until we know what's going to happen.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019
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  22. GrantLemons

    GrantLemons At least we're a team

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    It's funny to think how little new ownership (Or Eugene, but we know that won't happen) would actually have to do to win back the public. I'd be more than satisfied if a CEO and a VP of hockey ops were installed (and given fill autonomy, of course). I wouldn't even care if we had to stay on a budget. If Eugene, or the new owners simply showed a commitment to finding and employing the best people, and giving them the power they need to make good, well informed business decisions, I'd be on board, and I'm sure many others like me would as well.

    It's mind boggling to me that Eugene can't see this.
     
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  23. Xspyrit

    Xspyrit Registered User

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    I think it's too late for Melnyk, he has burned too many bridges. The organization needs a "new start" and I think it will only happen with an ownership change.
     
  24. coladin

    coladin Registered User

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    I personally don't believe that Karlsson or Hoffman were part of the discussions last February, although I don't get in the way of those who want to. Dorion would not have traded Hoffman if the intent was to move Karlsson all along. Makes zero sense. But that's just me.

    These UFAs are the easiest to trade, if you want 1st round picks. Pierre has been good at getting prospects and drafting, so that will continue one would think. I like Norris and Balcers.
     
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  25. NorthCoast

    NorthCoast Registered User

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    I would mostly agree.

    There isn't just one way to build a competitive team. The core in Vegas (expansion draft) was build differently than Tampa (Entry Draft), and differently than Nashville (trades).

    You can turn a team around quickly with the right moves.

    But for a non-cap team everything probably has to go right for the stars to align, and the window once they do will be much shorter if you cannot keep the core together.
     
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