Would another Rocket make OV the GOAT goalscorer?

[CMDEADLY]

Does anyone seriously think Ovechkin's diet and workout regime is much better than players from the 80's?

I mean overall players have much better diets and workout regimes, but Ovechkin doesn't appear to follow that trend.

So yeah I expect you could drop Ovechkin into the 80's and he'd be one of/ if not the best goal scorer of that era just like he is today.

Yes absolutely. As well as his coaching and strategies used.

 

[CMDEADLY]

The honest problem is people can't see the present as good. We have 5 or 6 of the best players in the history of sports playing at the moment.

Lebron, Curry, Sid, Ovechkin, Mcdavid, Messi/Ronaldo.

Just appreciate it man. You only get one superstar athlete that fits a mold. There will never be another Gretzky, there will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Pele. You have guys that take their own path to legend.

So if Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time. Which is likely the case so be it. Just appreciate watching it while you can.

20 years from now when some new goal scorer pops up we'll be saying he'll never touch ovi.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Then you would need to back your statement up with some evidence, as I could with Gretzky by pointing to his 9 50 goal seasons in 10 years, 4 consecutive years at 70+ goals, and that 92 goal season. Plus, if you have much familiarity with his career, you would remember that Gretzky shot the puck way more in his earlier years, and was much more inclined to pass it to his linemates in later years.

The adjusted stats already knock Gretzky down a couple pegs, so I'm just going to assume that you've read them and choose to ignore them.

So what's your excuse for Gretzky having less goal scoring titles than Ovechkin?

 

[Bank Shot]

Yes absolutely. As well as his coaching and strategies used.

Come on now. Just because more advanced dieting and workout routines exist now doesn't mean Ovechkin adheres to them.

Look at a pic of Ovechkin then look at a pic of prime Bobby Hull and its clear the one from the 60's is in way better physical condition.

 

[ManofSteel55]

The adjusted stats already knock Gretzky down a couple pegs, so I'm just going to assume that you've read them and choose to ignore them.

So what's your excuse for Gretzky having less goal scoring titles than Ovechkin?

Ovechkin hasn't had scorers like Brett Hull and Mario Lemieux to go up against, plus in the latter half of his career Gretzky was far more focused on setting up his teammates. Ovechkin has been the trigger man his entire career.

As per "adjusted stats", they still show Gretzky is the best, and they are a bit of a joke anyway. We do have to consider that Gretzky played in a higher scoring era, but I don't buy a lot of the formulas that guys toss out there to show the difference between then and now. I don't think "adjusted" stats are more legit than real stats, they are flawed as well.

 

[Bank Shot]

Ovechkin hasn't had scorers like Brett Hull and Mario Lemieux to go up against, plus in the latter half of his career Gretzky was far more focused on setting up his teammates. Ovechkin has been the trigger man his entire career.

As per "adjusted stats", they still show Gretzky is the best, and they are a bit of a joke anyway. We do have to consider that Gretzky played in a higher scoring era, but I don't buy a lot of the formulas that guys toss out there to show the difference between then and now. I don't think "adjusted" stats are more legit than real stats, they are flawed as well.

Well, when 14 of 20 of the the top goal scorers in NHL history played in the 80's you know that using regular stats just doesn't cut it.

We can make an assumption that 75% of the best hockey players of all time didn't play in the 1980's and probably be correct.

So we have to attempt to adjust the stats to other eras. It's not perfect but its clearly better than the alternative.

 

[filinski77]

Ovechkin hasn't had scorers like Brett Hull and Mario Lemieux to go up against, plus in the latter half of his career Gretzky was far more focused on setting up his teammates. Ovechkin has been the trigger man his entire career.

As per "adjusted stats", they still show Gretzky is the best, and they are a bit of a joke anyway. We do have to consider that Gretzky played in a higher scoring era, but I don't buy a lot of the formulas that guys toss out there to show the difference between then and now. I don't think "adjusted" stats are more legit than real stats, they are flawed as well.

In Gretz's prime goal scoring years, he had a shooting % of 21-27% (whilst accumulating massive amounts of shots too). Once he hit like 27 years old and his goal scoring dominance stopped, he was shooting anywhere from 8-19%. Something like around 6 out of 9 of his highest assist finishes came when he was shooting 20+%. Seems more like he just fell off as an elite goalscorer when he hit 27-28 years old

 

[Voight]

Does anyone seriously think Ovechkin's diet and workout regime is much better than players from the 80's?

I mean overall players have much better diets and workout regimes, but Ovechkin doesn't appear to follow that trend.

So yeah I expect you could drop Ovechkin into the 80's and he'd be one of/ if not the best goal scorer of that era just like he is today.

I disagree. Players used to smoke during intermission. They would drink like fish at night and do god knows what, back before sports leagues really tested for anything.

Yes Ovy likes to party but I'm sure he has a nutritionist and dietician. His mom (biggest influence on him) would make sure of it.

The honest problem is people can't see the present as good. We have 5 or 6 of the best players in the history of sports playing at the moment.

Lebron, Curry, Sid, Ovechkin, Mcdavid, Messi/Ronaldo.

Just appreciate it man. You only get one superstar athlete that fits a mold. There will never be another Gretzky, there will never be another Jordan, there will never be another Pele. You have guys that take their own path to legend.

So if Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time. Which is likely the case so be it. Just appreciate watching it while you can.

20 years from now when some new goal scorer pops up we'll be saying he'll never touch ovi.

Agree for the most part but you should really put KD instead of Curry. & you should include Brady as well as Mike Trout.

 

[Fallschirmyager]

Is everyone here under 30 or just completely off their rocker? Sure, conditioning is better now. People are bigger and faster. They have better equipment. They are a product of the time. But everyone here keeps assuming you "drop" Ovi into the 80s and he'll dominate. Are we also taking away his diet and workout regimen? His equipment? All of these things would have a drastic impact on the way anyone would play the game. Ovechkin is one of the most dominant goal scorers in the history of the game. Is he the greatest of all time? Maybe, but it's unclear and anyone stating he is the GOAT is obviously biased in one way or another.

The only way to truly determine how effective he is compared to guys like Mario, Gretzky, and Jagr, would be to have him play under the same factors as the aforementioned players. To state that he is the greatest because he'd dominate the players of the 80s is a straw man argument and a fallacy. There are so many factors that would play into the way he dominated. Because you're not going to get 2018 fitness levels and equipment if he were playing in the 80s. Neither would it be fair to drop a player with such a large advantage into that pool of players.

Give the average man of the 1985 NHL season the same workout routines, dieting, 24/7 nutritional coaches, and equipment worn by the guys today and many of them would be on the level of the average 2018 NHL player. Vice versa for the average player of today.

To sum up my rant. We never will really know. Can't we just enjoy all these players for who they are instead of trying to see who would pee highest on the wall?

There's a hole in your argument. Ovy is a product of post Soviet training having been born in 85. If you back him up to a birth date where he would have been old enough to play in the 80's he would have been a product of the Red Army teams that were fanatical in their conditioning. Would he have maintained that conditioning is another discussion but his training at least until age 18 would be superior to most of the NHL players of the time.

So yes, it is reasonable to believe he physically would still be a bull in a china shop.

 

[TheAngryHank]

I assume you will recognize the best goalscorer in 2040 as being better than OV then?

My grandson is going to be awesome!

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Ovie has to be top three, for sure.

Gretzky still is the greatest.

Will revisit when Ovie finally hangs up his skates.

In the meantime, I think Ovie is the greatest LW to ever play.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Tell Laine, McDavid, Seguin or Karlsson that.

I texted them and they agree.

 

[Sentinel]

Brett is out. Bossy is out. Lemieux absolutely is in.

Basically there's a consensus or a strong majority opinion about the "top-tier", which is Gretzky, Bobby Hull, Lemieux, Ovechkin and The Rocket. How is usually seen either in between of the "1st tier" and 22nd tier" or in the front of everyone else on "2nd tier".

Brett, Bossy, and Esposito are certainly NOT out. They all have quite a few things on Lemieux.

 

[TheAngryHank]

Ovie has to be top three, for sure.

Gretzky still is the greatest.

Will revisit when Ovie finally hangs up his skates.

In the meantime, I think Ovie is the greatest LW to ever play.

No argument on the Wing , Lucky Luke has nothing on Ovy , not even Alyssa.

 

[Sentinel]

Here is something to consider. As far as quality of (relevant) teammates go, it's arguably:

Richard > Esposito > Bossy > Gretzky > Hull Sr. > Hull Jr. > Lemieux > Ovechkin

 

[shtorm2005]

But everyone here keeps assuming you "drop" Ovi into the 80s and he'll dominate. Are we also taking away his diet and workout regimen? His equipment? All of these things would have a drastic impact on the way anyone would play the game.

Did he have it at age 18?

 

[ALLCAPSALLTHETIME]

Here is something to consider. As far as quality of (relevant) teammates go, it's arguably:

Richard > Esposito > Bossy > Gretzky > Hull Sr. > Hull Jr. > Lemieux > Ovechkin

Indeed. A very relevant point.

 

[bobbyking]

In Gretzky's 92 goal season, there was only 1 player within 30 goals of him, and that was Mike Bossy, who is another of the guys up there in the "greatest goal scorer" discussion. I'm not sure you can claim that OV is the "only threat to get 50" either. Laine was with him most of the year in pace. Others have come close in the past 3 seasons. Gretzky's numbers were just so much better than his peers numbers in the 80's, it is ridiculous how many more goals he scored in that season than anyone else.

Gretzky dominated a weak talent pool. He would not have huge goal scoring leads over the European talent that came in since the 90s. Bossys probably not much better then bure at goal scoring . I doubt he is. He's overrated because he's Canadian and played in a league where predicting the cup winner was relatively easy

 

[Sentinel]

Gretzky dominated a weak talent pool. He would not have huge goal scoring leads over the European talent that came in since the 90s. Bossys probably not much better then bure at goal scoring . I doubt he is. He's overrated because he's Canadian and played in a league where predicting the cup winner was relatively easy

B.S. Gretzky lead the European talent in every. tournament. he. ever. played. in his prime.

Canada Cups:
Gretzky: 39 GP, 20 + 44 = 69 Pts, 1.77 PPG
Makarov: 22 GP, 16 + 15 = 31 Pts, 1.41 PPG
Krutov: 22 GP, 16 + 14 = 30 Pts, 1.36 PPG

Gretzky always dwarfed his competition. No reason to believe he wouldn't under other circumstances.

And "predicting the Cup winner was easy"?? In what year?

Maybe Bossy was not better than Bure, but he was much healthier in his prime and had much better teammates. With Bure, there is always "what if." With Bossy, there isn't.

 

[bobbyking]

Ovechkin hasn't had scorers like Brett Hull and Mario Lemieux to go up against, plus in the latter half of his career Gretzky was far more focused on setting up his teammates. Ovechkin has been the trigger man his entire career.

As per "adjusted stats", they still show Gretzky is the best, and they are a bit of a joke anyway. We do have to consider that Gretzky played in a higher scoring era, but I don't buy a lot of the formulas that guys toss out there to show the difference between then and now. I don't think "adjusted" stats are more legit than real stats, they are flawed as well.

Yeah ovi just destroyed kovalchuk peak heatley malkin tarasenko bunch of bums peak stamkos

 

[Sentinel]

Yeah ovi just destroyed kovalchuk peak heatley malkin tarasenko bunch of bums peak stamkos

None of these are even close to Hull Jr., Bossy, and Lemieux. "Peak Heatley" "Tarasenko"

 

[ryerockarola]

Gretzky dominated a weak talent pool. He would not have huge goal scoring leads over the European talent that came in since the 90s. Bossys probably not much better then bure at goal scoring . I doubt he is. He's overrated because he's Canadian and played in a league where predicting the cup winner was relatively easy

What??? Yeah back then they pretty much handed out the Cup at the beginning of the season. Every year from the mid '70's all the way through the '80's hahaha

 

[bobbyking]

None of these are even close to Hull Jr., Bossy, and Lemieux. "Peak Heatley" "Tarasenko"

Gretzky never dominated any of those guys he only beat bossy who is the most overrated player ever.

 

[ryerockarola]

Gretzky never dominated any of those guys he only beat bossy who is the most overrated player ever.

yeah like you said Bossy's overrated because he's Canadian, *yawn

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

He's already one of them. In my opinion, he's topped Pavel Bure. I consider him better than Bure because in his rookie year he had nobody to work with and put up amazing numbers. I think right now he's second ever because I know he'll pass Brett Hull and Jagr/Howe played for a long time. Although, I could see Ovi playing till he's 42 or older.

But Bure was just... amazing. He was my favourite player before I chose Sakic.