Would another Rocket make OV the GOAT goalscorer?

[txpd]

Then you would need to back your statement up with some evidence, as I could with Gretzky by pointing to his 9 50 goal seasons in 10 years, 4 consecutive years at 70+ goals, and that 92 goal season. Plus, if you have much familiarity with his career, you would remember that Gretzky shot the puck way more in his earlier years, and was much more inclined to pass it to his linemates in later years.

I noticed that in Gretzky's 92 goal season there were 10 guys with 50. At present Ovechkin is the only guy in the league that is a threat to get to 50. Is the quality of the players just so much less or is the goaltending and defensive coaching so much better?

 

[ManofSteel55]

I noticed that in Gretzky's 92 goal season there were 10 guys with 50. At present Ovechkin is the only guy in the league that is a threat to get to 50. Is the quality of the players just so much less or is the goaltending and defensive coaching so much better?

In Gretzky's 92 goal season, there was only 1 player within 30 goals of him, and that was Mike Bossy, who is another of the guys up there in the "greatest goal scorer" discussion. I'm not sure you can claim that OV is the "only threat to get 50" either. Laine was with him most of the year in pace. Others have come close in the past 3 seasons. Gretzky's numbers were just so much better than his peers numbers in the 80's, it is ridiculous how many more goals he scored in that season than anyone else.

 

[The GM]

They should just make a new award for the greatest ever, the Alex ovechkin trophy, awarded annually to the player that most exemplifies being a man amoung boys

 

[ManofSteel55]

They should just make a new award for the greatest ever, the Alex ovechkin trophy, awarded annually to the player that most exemplifies being a man amoung boys

Awarded for player expected to be the suck, but actually isn't the suck.

 

[tony d]

No, but it'll get him closer to Hull and Lemieux who I have ahead of him on the all time goat goal scorers list.

 

[BackToTheBasics]

Then you would need to back your statement up with some evidence, as I could with Gretzky by pointing to his 9 50 goal seasons in 10 years, 4 consecutive years at 70+ goals, and that 92 goal season. Plus, if you have much familiarity with his career, you would remember that Gretzky shot the puck way more in his earlier years, and was much more inclined to pass it to his linemates in later years.

Or maybe it's because his shooting % dropped from mid 20's to low 10's as his career progressed. He took more shots in '97 then he did in '81 yet he scored way less. I guess he just wasn't looking to score on those shots, right?

 

[Plub]

You know what? You’re right. You convinced me. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways.

Glad you finally accepted it.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Or maybe it's because his shooting % dropped from mid 20's to low 10's as his career progressed. He took more shots in '97 then he did in '81 yet he scored way less. I guess he just wasn't looking to score on those shots, right?

There will be multiple factors. Shooting percentage would be part of it, yep. But he unquestionably looked to pass first rather than shoot first as he aged as well.

 

[Church Hill]

Who else is even in the discussion? Gretzky would cut his goal totals in half if he played against just today's goalies. Nevermind today's far superior defense, much more structured coaching, better average level of talent, higher level of fitness, etc..

It's a completely different sport and there's 0% chance Gretzky would match his 80s output today - nobody would even argue that anymore. That's just a fact, whether you accept it or not, it's still a fact. The only question you can argue is "how much less would Gretzky have produced?" 20% fewer goals? 30%? Even if it was just 25% less, that would mean that Ovechkin was already just a few goals away from surpassing his career total.

Ovi is #1 all-time and it's time for people to acknowledge that.

 

[Jordan Belfort]

So when did this fundamental change from really hard to easy happen? Specifically what season?

It just happened over time... there hasn’t been an amazing player like Lemieux or a goalie like Hazel since their times... I think it’s just the luck of the draw. Mcdavid is good but won’t touch Lemieux, Sackic, Kurri, Messier ever in his career

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Who else is even in the discussion? Gretzky would cut his goal totals in half if he played against just today's goalies. Nevermind today's far superior defense, much more structured coaching, better average level of talent, higher level of fitness, etc..

It's a completely different sport and there's 0% chance Gretzky would match his 80s output today - nobody would even argue that anymore. That's just a fact, whether you accept it or not, it's still a fact. The only question you can argue is "how much less would Gretzky have produced?" 20% fewer goals? 30%? Even if it was just 25% less, that would mean that Ovechkin was already just a few goals away from surpassing his career total.

Ovi is #1 all-time and it's time for people to acknowledge that.

Gretzky would still have 200 points in today’s NHL lol. His skill doesn’t get worse over time. Lemieux will always be better than ovi and hull and bossy will as well.

 

[Church Hill]

Gretzky would still have 200 points in today’s NHL lol. His skill doesn’t get worse over time. Lemieux will always be better than ovi and hull and bossy will as well.

You forgot to add an argument to your statement. Try again.

 

[DannyGallivan]

I noticed that in Gretzky's 92 goal season there were 10 guys with 50. At present Ovechkin is the only guy in the league that is a threat to get to 50. Is the quality of the players just so much less or is the goaltending and defensive coaching so much better?

Tell Laine, McDavid, Seguin or Karlsson that.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Gretzky would still have 200 points in today’s NHL lol. His skill doesn’t get worse over time. Lemieux will always be better than ovi and hull and bossy will as well.

I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[Fantomas]

I assume you will recognize the best goalscorer in 2040 as being better than OV then?

I'm with daver on this. Saying that player x is better than player y because the former is more recent creates a slippery slope.

It is not necessary to try to imagine what Ovechkin would do in the 1980s. We can just look at the facts in terms of how players fare in their respective eras and contexts. No need to dismiss Gretzky or Richard or Howe because they played before our time.

 

[Fantomas]

Who else is even in the discussion? Gretzky would cut his goal totals in half if he played against just today's goalies.

Again this type of "time machine" argument does not seem productive. What matters is how good Gretzky was against his peers. You will never know how well he would play today if he was somehow 30 years younger than he is.

 

[Fallschirmyager]

Tell Laine, McDavid, Seguin or Karlsson that.

the closest of which is still 5? 6? goals away from their first 50 goals season among the 4. Ovechkin has 7, just missed his 8th this last season and had another strike shortened season that he was on pace for another 50 that would have been another. Is he going to come into next season fired up to keep the young bucks in their place and win another title or will he still be hung over for Christmas or both? We'll see.

 

[DannyGallivan]

the closest of which is still 5? 6? goals away from their first 50 goals season among the 4. Ovechkin has 7, just missed his 8th this last season and had another strike shortened season that he was on pace for another 50 that would have been another. Is he going to come into next season fired up to keep the young bucks in their place and win another title or will he still be hung over for Christmas or both? We'll see.

Yeah, I think Ovi went out with a bang. He won his Cup. Now, he's going to be 33 years old and he's not getting any thinner. I tend to agree with your last statement concerning a hangover than any real desire to beat out the much younger, hungrier young guns.

 

[Jordan Belfort]

I wouldn't be so sure.

When did you start watching hockey? Did you ever have a chance to watch the greats of the game?

 

[Dr Pepper]

When did you start watching hockey? Did you ever have a chance to watch the greats of the game?

Early to mid-90's, as if that's of any importance.

I still don't think Gretzky would be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone in the league, were he to play against today's players using modern equipment and modern techniques.

Before you explode, this isn't me saying he'd be a 4th liner. I just don't feel he'd be racking up 200+ points against today's goaltenders and defensive systems. Nobody's even come remotely close to that in years, and the league scoring average has dipped dramatically from where it was in Gretz's heyday.

 

[Ncit3]

Is everyone here under 30 or just completely off their rocker? Sure, conditioning is better now. People are bigger and faster. They have better equipment. They are a product of the time. But everyone here keeps assuming you "drop" Ovi into the 80s and he'll dominate. Are we also taking away his diet and workout regimen? His equipment? All of these things would have a drastic impact on the way anyone would play the game. Ovechkin is one of the most dominant goal scorers in the history of the game. Is he the greatest of all time? Maybe, but it's unclear and anyone stating he is the GOAT is obviously biased in one way or another.

The only way to truly determine how effective he is compared to guys like Mario, Gretzky, and Jagr, would be to have him play under the same factors as the aforementioned players. To state that he is the greatest because he'd dominate the players of the 80s is a straw man argument and a fallacy. There are so many factors that would play into the way he dominated. Because you're not going to get 2018 fitness levels and equipment if he were playing in the 80s. Neither would it be fair to drop a player with such a large advantage into that pool of players.

Give the average man of the 1985 NHL season the same workout routines, dieting, 24/7 nutritional coaches, and equipment worn by the guys today and many of them would be on the level of the average 2018 NHL player. Vice versa for the average player of today.

To sum up my rant. We never will really know. Can't we just enjoy all these players for who they are instead of trying to see who would pee highest on the wall?

 

[lomiller1]

He's already the best goal scorer of all time

 

[Laineux]

I still don't think Gretzky would be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone in the league, were he to play against today's players using modern equipment and modern techniques.

Does that really matter? Lots of people in the world that if you transported back to the 80s that would become more succesful than Bill Gates. Not really a fair excersize to take people out of their own time. I think the question whether the competition is tougher due to increased professionalism is valid, but the time machine argument isn't great.

 

[Bank Shot]

Give the average man of the 1985 NHL season the same workout routines, dieting, 24/7 nutritional coaches, and equipment worn by the guys today and many of them would be on the level of the average 2018 NHL player. Vice versa for the average player of today.

Does anyone seriously think Ovechkin's diet and workout regime is much better than players from the 80's?

I mean overall players have much better diets and workout regimes, but Ovechkin doesn't appear to follow that trend.

So yeah I expect you could drop Ovechkin into the 80's and he'd be one of/ if not the best goal scorer of that era just like he is today.

 

[daver]

It just happened over time... there hasn’t been an amazing player like Lemieux or a goalie like Hazel since their times... I think it’s just the luck of the draw. Mcdavid is good but won’t touch Lemieux, Sackic, Kurri, Messier ever in his career

Other than Mario, all those players you have listed are behind Crosby and maybe Ovechkin in terms of career accomplishments and individual seasons.

What are you basing your opinion that the league is easier now on? There is nothing statistically to back that up.